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Author: 



New York (State) 



Title: 



Second report of the 



Factory. 



V. 





of 4 



Place: 



Albany 

Date: 

1913 




MASTER NEGATIVE « 



COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY LIBRARIES 
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ORIGINAL MATERIAL AS FILMED - EXISTING BIBLIOGRAPHIC RECORD 



New York (State) Factory investigating commission. 

... Second report of the Factory investigating commission, 
1913 ... Transmitted to the Legislature January 16, 1913 
(With testimony and proceedings] Albany, J. B. Lyon com- 
pany, printers, 1913. 
V ^ 4^. plate*, plans, dlagrs (part fold.) forms (part fold.) 23 cm. 
( (Legislature. 1018. Senate doc. 86i ) 
At head of title : State of New York. 
Robert F. Wagner, chairman. 

Contents. 
I. Report. Appendix i. list of bills submitted to the legislature bj 
the Commission. 

n. Appendices: n. Report of direction of Investigation, G. M. 
Price.— m. The fire hazard, by J. P. Whiskeman.— iv. Report on manu- 

(Continued on next card) 

13-33351 rev 2 

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1913 



New York {State) Factory investigating commission. ... 
Second report of the Factory investigating commission ... 
1913. (Card 2) 

Contents— Continued. 

facturlne in tenements in New York state, by Elizabeth C Watson.— 
V Inffial Stions in the canning industry of New York state, 
by zTpotte^-vi. Report on wood alcohol, by C. B^s^^^-^iMe -^ 
R^i^rt on commercial acids, by C F McKenna^vm. Report on 1^ 
and arsenical poisoning, by C. T. G. Rogers and J. R Vogt-n^Pr^ 
Smlnary report on employment of women "id children ^ mer^^U^e 
establishments, by Pauline Goldmark and G. A, HaU.— x. Brlea ana 

memoranda. 
_iiiiiav,^T6fttimony and proeeedingsr 



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Second report of the Factory investigating... (V. 3) 



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TRACKING*: MSH01841 



■ i 



THE LIBRARIES 







-u.^^ 



STATE OF NEW YORK 



SECOND REPORT 



i' 



1 



OF THE 



Factory Investigating Commission 



1913 



VOLUME m 



\ 



TESTIMONY AND PROCEEDINGS 



■-•=—•- 



• .♦ 



transmitted to THE.L^JSI5^ATtJR£ JAiNlUAPY 15. 1913 



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. • • • . . 



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ALBANY 

J. B. LYON COMPANY. PRINTERS 

1913 



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State of New York 



No. 36 



IN SENATE 



January 15, 1913 



SECOND REPORT 



i^ 



OFjTHE 



New York State Factory Investigating Commission 



i 



January 15. 1913 



« • 
« t 



« • • 



^ 



.^ 



ABRAM I. ELKUS 

Chief Counsel 

BERNARD L SHIENTAG 

Assistant Counsel 



ROBERT F. WAGNER 

Chairman 
ALFRED E. SMITH 

Vice-Chairman 

CHARLES M. HAMILTON 

EDWARD D. JACKSON 

CYRUS W. PHILLIPS 

SAMUEL GOMPERS 

SIMON BRENTANO 

ROBERT E. DOWUNG 

MARY E. DREIER 

FRANK A. TIERNEY 

Secretary 



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TABLE OF CONTENTS. 



VOLUMES III AND IV. 

PAGE 

Act Continuing Commission (Chapter 21, Laws 1912) vii 

List of Hearings of the Commission jx 

Index to Witnesses f^ 

Index to Witnesses at Hearing before Senate and Assembly Committees 

on Labor and Industry (xxii? 

Testimony, Volume III j 

Testimony, Volume IV j j^- 

Hearing before Joint Senate and Assembly Committees on Labor and 
Industry, on Bilk Recommended by the Factory Investigating Com- 
mission, Assembly Chamber, Albany, February 19, 1913 2225 

Tentative Bills Issued by Commission August, 1912 2313 

Index to Testimony -^447 

[V] 



» 



I 



I 



'^ 



ACT CONTINUING COMMISSION. 



OHAP. 21. 



A^ ACT to amend chapter five hundred and sixty-one oi the laws 
of nineteen hundred and eleven, entitled "An act to create a 
commission to investigate the conditions under which manu- 
facture is carried on in cities of the first and second class in 
this state, and making an appropriation therefor," in relation 
to extending the time of the commission within which to make 
a report to the legislature, and also enlarging the scope of the 
investigation of the commission and making an appropriation 
therefor. 

Became a law March 6, 1912, with the approval of the Governor. Passed 

by a two-thirds vote. 

I'he People of the State of Neiv York, represented in Senate 
and Assembly, do enact as follows: 

Section 1. Section three of chapter five hundred and sixty-one 
of the laws of nineteen hundred and eleven, entitled "An act to 
create a commission to investigate the conditions under which man- 
ufacture is carried on in cities of the first and second class in this 
state, and making an appropriation therefor," is hereby amended 
to read as follows: 

§ 1. Such commission shall make a report of its proceedings, 
together with its recommendations, to the legislature on or be- 
fore the fifteenth day of January, nineteen hundred and thirteen. 

§ 2. In addition to the powers conferred by chapter five hun- 
dred and sixty-one of the laws of nineteen hundred and eleven, 
such commission shall, pursuant to such act, have power through- 
out the state to investigate manufacturing conducted in buildings 
or elsewhere, and to inquire into the conditions in mercantile 
establishments generally. 

§ 3. The sum of sixty thousand dollars ($60,000), or so much 
thereof as may be needed, is hereby appropriated for the actual 
and necessary expenses of the commission in carrying out the 
provisions of chapter five hundred and sixty-one of the laws of 

[vii] 



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Act CoNTixiixG Co^[MissiOiV. 



nineteen liiniJrod and eleven and this act, payable by the treasurer 
on the warrant of the comptroller on the order of the chairman 
of such commission. 

§ 4. This act shall take effect immediately. 

State of New Yobk, 
Oflice of the Secretary of State. 

I have compared the preceding with the original law on file in this office, 
and do hereby certify that the same is a correct transcript therefrom and 
of tl e wliole cf said oii^inal law. 

EDWARD LAZANSKY, 

Secretary of State. 



HEARINGS AND PROCEEDINGS OF THE 

COMMISSION. 



, «». .* 



1912. 



^Jay 27 



t 



Aug. 



vf 



Oct. 



Nov. 



Dec. 



28. 

29. 
30. 
31. 
12. 



13. 
14. 



15. 
Sept. 23^. 



24. 

4. 

5. 
ID. 
25, 
26. 

27. 
2. 

3. 

4. 
5. 

6. 

9. 
10. 
11. 
12. 
1«. 



PAGE 
Albany — executive session — organization of Labor Depart- 
ment 2 

Albany — evening — executive session — conditions in found- 
ries 68 

Albany — executive session — organization of Labor Depart- 
ment 97 

BuflFalo — inspections of factories 141 

Buffalo — inspections of factories 154 

Niagara Falls — inspections of factories 155, 181 

Utica — inspections of factories 182 

Little Falls — inspections of factories 188 

Little Falls — public hearing 195 

Rome — inspection and hearing, Fort Stanwix Canning Co.. 214 
Auburn — inspection and hearing, H. C. Hemingway & Co. 

canning factory 313 

Auburn — inspection and hearing, Osborne Twine Works, In- 
ternational Harvester Co 330 

Geneva — inspection and hearing, Geneva Preserving Co 390 

Albion — inspection and hearing, Bert Olney Canning Co 399 

Batavia — inspection and hearing, Batavia Presenting Co 429 

New York City — public hearing — tentative bills 445 

New York City — evening — executive session, women workers 

in department stores 4S8 

New York City — public hearing — tentative bills 538 

Niagara Falls — inspection of factories — hearings 627 

Niagara Falls — evening — executive session — lead poisoning. 650 

Niagara Falls — public hearing 660 

Yonkera — public liearing 715 

Albany — public hearing — foundry bills 791 

Albany — public hearing — conditions in canneries 940 

Troy — public hearing 1074 

New York City — public hearing — reorganization of Labor 

Department 1 127 

New York City — public hearing — bakery bill — one day 

rest in seven legislation 1245 

New York City — public liearing — fire hazard bills 1305 

New York City — public hearing — manufacturing in tene- 

. ments 1604 

New York City — public hearing — tentative bills generally. 1632 

Buffalo — public hearing — tentative bills generally 1778 

Rochester — public hearing — tentative bills generally 1911 

Syracuse — public hearing — tentative bills generally 2019 

Utica — public hearing — tentative bills generally 2139 

New York City — public hearing — tentative bills generally. 2183 



'/ 



\-. 



INDEX TO WITNESSES. 



FA6B 

Adams, Eugene, Bakers' Union, Syracuse— conditions in bakeries 2128 

Adler, Felix, Prof., leader Ethical Culture Society, New York, chairman 

National Child Labor Committee — manufacturing in tenements 1594 j 

Adler, Max, clothing manufacturer, Rochester — tentative bills 1988 

Agge, Franklin, manager Republic Metal Ware Co., Buffalo — tentative 

^"*« 1850 

Alberger, Aldin H., Howard Iron Works, BuflFalo — tentative bills 1873 

Atterbury, Albert H., property owner. New York city — fire hazard bills. 1455 
Alger, George W., attorney, New York, member New York Child 

Labor Committee — employment of children in cannery sheds 1059 

Almy, Frederic, secretary Charity Organization Society, Buffalo — ten- 
tative bills jgoi » 

Amberg, Joshua L., manufacturer dolls' dresses. New York — manufac- 
turing in tenements 2209 

Armstrong, James, Moulders' Union No. 22, Brooklyn — foundry bills. . 9.36 
Arnstein, Leo, New York city, member New York Child Labor Com- 
mittee — manufacturing in tenements i^^jq , 

Ash, Charles B., factory inspector, Syracuse — conditions in factories ', '. . 787 
Babcock, George, manager H. H. Franklin Mfg. Co., Syracuse — guard- 
ing of belting 2026 

Baker, Dora, child bean snipper, cannery shed, Rome 214 

Baker, Mrs. Leroy, cannery worker, Rome 3^7 

Baker, Dr. S. Josephine, director of child hygiene, Department of Health, 

New York — manufacturing in tenements ' 1553 

Baker, Viola, child bean snipper, cannery shed, Rome 215 

Bartholomew, Walter H., Dress and Waist Manufacturers' Association, 
New York: 

Proposed occupancy bill ^y g 

tentative bills generally jjy^ 

Memorandum on tentative bills, on behalf of Legislative Committee, 

Allied Needle Trades ' ^jg^ 

Bartlcy, J. Sims, buUding inspector, Yonkers — fire hazard in factories. 739 
Baskerville, Dr. Charles, professor of chemistry, College of the City of 

New York — report on wood alcohol ^532 

Beeks, Gertrude, secretary Welfare Department, National Civic Federa- 
tion — men's work ^^^^ 

Benjamin, Eugene S., New York, Legislative Committee, Allied Needle 

Trades — occupancy bill — manufacturing in tenements. . .2184, 2190, 2207 
Bensel, Dr. John A., sanitary superintendent. Department of Health' 
New York — bakery bill ' jge^ 

Berry, J. S., superintendent Batavia Preserving Co., Batavia — condv 

tions in canneries ' ^^n 

Bink, Martha, employee International Harvester Co., Auburn 361 

N 



xii Index to Witnesses. 

PAGE 

Bliss, W. L., engineer W. S. Lighting and Heating Co., Niagara Falls — 
lead poisoning 

Bloomingdale, E. W., Retail Dry Goods Association, New York — Build- 
ing Code — tentative bills ^^^ 

Bohchardt, Samuel, manufacturer crochet goods, New York — manu- 
facturing in tenements * ^'^^^ 

Borland, Rubin, general superintendent Alexander Smith Carpet Co., 

Yonkers ; • '^''^ 

Bowen, Jennie, North American Civil League for Immigrants — welfare 

work in canneries ^^^^ 

Brociner, Alexander, consulting engineer. New York — elevators as fire 

exits ^^* 

Brower, John L., West End Association, New York — revolving doors.. 1492 
Brown, Edward F., cannery inspector for Commission — child labor in 

... 991 
canneries 

Brown, E. Lvman, Hudson River Foundry Co., Poughkeepsie — foundry 

bill * ^^^ 

Buell, Howard, Waldorf Mfg. Co., Syracuse — occupancy bill 2132 

Burr, William H., Retail Grocers' Association, Rochester — closing hour. 2012 
Burt, Alfred H., candy manufacturer. Buff alo — exemption of candy in- 
dustry from Fifty-four Hour Law 1812 

Butts, Marion, child bean snipper, cannery shed, Rome 224 

Campbell, William V., general superintendent Waring Hat Co., Yonkers. 763 
Canton, Charles L., Phoenix Foundry Co., Voorheesville — foundry bill. . . 883 

Carneigie, Henry M., bleach packer, Niagara Falls 627 

Casti, Frances, child bean snipper, cannery shed, Rome 223 

Chamberlain, Mary L., investigator for Commission — working condi- 
tions in canneries — diary of personal experience as cannery worker . . 097 
Chaplin, Stewart, attorney, Solvay Process Co., Syracuse — industrial 

board •.-• 2042 

Charles, Lucy, employee. International Harvester Co. (Osborne Twine 

Works) , Auburn ^^8 

Chase, Charlton A., Syracuse Chilled Flow Co., Syracuse — fire hazard 

bills 2049,2112 

Chase, Canon William S., Brooklyn — one day rest in seven legisla- 
tion 1354 

Chisevitch, Rosie, employee, International Harvester Co. (Osborne Twine 

Works) , Auburn 358 

Christopherson, :Martin H., manager, Otis Elevator Co., New York — 

safeguards for elevators 7^2 

Clark, Howard W., president, Clark Canning Co., Rochester — employ- 

^ ment of women and children in canneries 1054, 1943 

Clark, J. T., New York — elevator bill 1768 

Clark, Mabel A., superintendent, Clark Canning Co., Rochester — hours 

of women in canneries 1957 

Cleller, James, child bean snipper, cannery shed, Rome 226 

Cluett, Albert E., engineer, Cluctt & Peabody, Troy — tentative bills.. . 1113 
Coleman, Gertrude, child bean snipper, cannery shed, Rome 219 



} — 



t 



I 



' - " ■• ' Index to Witnesses. xiii 

> 

PAGE 

Collins, William, president. Federation of Labor, Yonkers — conditions 

in factories 747 

Congialosi, George S., factory inspector — conditions in knitting mill, 
Utica 182, 1 84 

Connor, John F., attorney for New York State Canners* Association — 
argument on behalf of canners 1017 

Cook, Henry W., A. E. Nettleton & Co., Syracuse — enclosure of stair- 
ways 2035 

Cooke, Robert Grier, president. Fifth Avenue Association, New York — 
limitation of height of buildings 1446 

Coons, Dr. William S., health officer, Yonkers — factory conditions, 
Yonkers 716 

Cox, George E., Union Carbide Co., Niagara Falls — dust creating in- 
dustries 706 

Cristenoli, Josephine, employee. International Harvester Co. (Osborne 
Twine Works) , Auburn \ 344 

Cummings, Henry Harrison, inspector, cannery shed, Rome 230 

Curran, Frank M., Trainmen's Union, Kings county — hours of con- 
ductors and trainmen 2223 

Curran Richard H. Moulders* Union, Rochester — foundry bill 3008 

Cutler, Burwell S., president. Cutler Desk Co., BufTalo — elevators 18(57 

Czajoski, Harry, foreman, men's coreroom, Pratt & Letchworth Foundry, 
Buffalo , 152 

Daniels, Dr. Annie Sturges, physician. New York — manufacturing in 
tenements 154>8 

Darlington, Dr. Thomas, former health commissioner. New York — 
tentative bills 2213 

Davies, Edgar T., chief factory inspector, Illinois — methods of factory 
inspection , 1774 

Davis, G. Richard, secretary. Allied Real Estate Interests, New York — 
fire hazard bills 1415 

Day, Leonard, chief, bureau fire alarm telegraph, fire department. New 
York — fire alarm signal systems 1493 

Decker, Raymond M., Batavia Preserving Co., Batavia — women and 
children in canneries 438 

De Puit, Philip A., Retail Grocers' Association, Rochester — closing 
time 2015 

De Rossi, Madelina, school teacher, Burt Olney Cannery, Albion — condi- 
tions in canneries 1940 

Dingman, James E., president, Dingman Co., manufacturers of mattress 
felts. Little Falls 188 

Di Pasquale, Rose, employee. International Harvester Co. (Osborne 
Twine Works) , Auburn ZZH 

Dobbin, William L., Levy Bros. Clothing Co., Rochester — occupancy 
bill 19&5 

Donati, Antonina, employee. International Harvester Co. (Osborne 
Twine Works) , Auburn 353 

Draper, Martha, Commissioner of Education, New York — extension of 
jurisdiction of children's court 1705 



xiv Index to Witnesses. 

PAGE 

Butcher, Elizabeth, Women's Trade Union League, New York — work 

and wages in department stores *88, 534, 1357 

Durosa, Nick, sample boy, Hooker Electro Chemical Co., Niagara Falls. 642 
Ehrich, Manfred W., attorney. New York — extension of jurisdiction of 

children's court ^'^^^ 

Eidt, Charles W., baker. New York — bakery bill 1338 

Erskine, Ralph, plumbing inspector, Niagara Falls — duties 673 

Evans, James H., building inspector, Niagara Falls — duties 678 

Fahey, Sarah, school teacher. New York — manufacturing in tenements. 1627 

Farrell, George A., Batavia — women in corerooms 1302 

Fifth Avenue Association, New York — memorandum on limitation of 

height of buildings 1*^2 

Fitch, John A., American Association for Labor Legislation — one day 

rest in seven legislation 1^*^ ' 

Fleming, James J., commissioner of public safety, Yonkers 779 

Fosdick, Raymond B., former commissioner of accounts, New York — 

bakery bill ^^'^^ 

Frank, L. K., inspector, committee on safety, New York — occupancy 

bill ^l 

Frazier, Fred, Frazier & Jones Foundry, Syracuse — foundry bills S32 

French, Edward L., Crucible Steel Co., Syracuse — smoking in factories. 2048 
Fronczak. Dr. Francis E., health officer, Buffalo — tentative bills gen- 

^,,11^ 1781 

eraiiy 

Gaflfney, Thomas M., Syracuse — advisory board -^ 2072 

Garveth, Hector R., chairman, executive committee, Employers' Asso- 
ciation, Niagara Falls '^^^ 

Gaynor, D. H., Moulders' Union, Auburn — foundry bills 927 

Gernon, James L., mercantile inspector. Department of Labor — bureau 
of mercantile inspection l^*^* ^240 

Getty, Dr. Samuel E., president. Sanitary league, Yonkers — tubercu- 
losis ^^^* 

Giblin, Francis, Giblin Pipe Foundry Co., Utica -- foundry bills. 843 

Girard, Eugene, welfare manager, Shredded Wheat Co., Niagara Falls — 
welfare work • *** 

Goldenberg, Benjamin, proprietor, ^tna l)oll &. Toy Co., New York — 
manufacturing in tenements • 

Goldmark, Josephine, publication secretary, National Consumers' League, 
New York — night work of women 1^^ 

Goldmark, Pauline, secretary. New York City Consumers' League: 

Reorganization of Labor Department 1234 

Manufacturing in tenements ^^^* 

Fifty-four Hour Law — exemption of candy industry 1772 

Goler, Dr. George W., health officer, Rochester — child labor and 
women's work 1962,2004,2010 

Goodman, Bernard, president. Greater New York Taxpayers' Association 

bakery bill ^^^ 

Gould, Norman J., Gould Manufacturing Co., Seneca Falls — foundry 

bills ®^* 






Index to Witnesses. XV 

PAGE 

Grannis, Rev. George W., New York, general secreUry, Lord's Day 
Alliance of the United States — one day rest in seven 1360 

Gray, A. W., Niagara Falls — licensing of dangerous trades 1908 

Greig, William M., superintendent, Osborne Twine Works, International 
Harvester Co., Auburn ^^^ 

Griffin, Robert, assistant building inspector, Yonkers — conditions in 

factories '^" 

Guerin, William, chief, bureau of fire prevention, fire department. New 

York — fire hazard bills 624, 1478 

Guggenheim, George, Stein-Bloch Co., Rochester — horizontal exits.... 2000 

Hagerty, Bemice Gertrude, child in cannery shed, Rome 219 

Hagerty, Lila, child in cannery shed, Rome 220 

Hagerty, Mrs. Rose, cannery worker, Rome 220 

Hall, Arthur S., superintendent. Fort Stanwix Canning Co., Rome — 

working conditions in canneries 236 

Hall, Fred S., New York Child Labor Committee — extension of juris- 
diction of children's court 1716 

Harris, J. W., representing moulders, Buffalo — foundries 1886 

Hatch, Leonard W., chief statistician. Department of Labor — bureau 

of stotistics 1173 

Haynes, William, fire marshal, Troy — fire hazard bills 1122 

Healy, Timothy, president. Stationary Firemen's Union, New York — 

hours of labor 711 

Heath, Mrs. Julian, president. Housewives' League, New York — bakery 

bill ••• 1290 

Heckman, James C, superintendent, Larkin Co., Buffalo — tentative 

bills 1866 

Hemingway, Roy W., manager, H. C. Hemingway Cannery, Auburn — 

working conditions in canneries 313 

Hill, Frank P., New York City Retail Bakers' Association — bakery bill. 1301 

Himmelwright, A. L. A., engineer. New York — fire hazard bills 468 

Hoagland, Ira Gould, editor, Insurance Engineering, New York — fire 

hazard bills l^^^ 

Holloran, John T., sanitary inspector, Niagara Falls — duties 6i71 

Honert, Willis, child bean snipper, cannery shed, Rome. 2r25 

Hooker, Albert H., technical director. Hooker Electro Chemical Co., 

Niagara Falls — conditions in bleach chambers 696, 699, 712 

Huchko, John, child bean snipper, cannery shed, Rome 220 

Hunter, Joseph P., president. Trades and Labor Council, Niagara Falls 

— conditions in factories • • 708 

Johnson, Hon. Joseph, fire commissioner. New York City — fire hazard 

bills 5««. 1330 

Jones, William O., deputy inspector of buildings, Utica — fire hazard 

bills 2174 

Kapfer, Helen, child bean snipper, cannery shed, Rome ^20 

Keiser, James R., Wholesale Men's Furnishing Association, New York 

— manufacturing in tenements 2202 

Kelleen, Henry W., attorney for candy manufacturers of Buffalo 1812 



XVI 



Index to Witnesses. 



PAGE 

Kelley, Mrs. Florence, secretary, National Consumers' League, New York: 

Hours of women in canneries 1062 

Reorganization of Labor Department 1222 

Manufacturing in tenements 1C24 

Physical examination of children 1719 

Kenlon, John, chief, fire department, New York City — fire hazard bills 1428 
Kennaday, Paul, secretary, New York Association for Labor Legislation: 

Reorganization of Labor Department 1215 

One day rest in seven 1358 

Kennedy, Samuel B., International Harvester Co., Auburn — foundry 

bills 850 

Kcnnclly, Ellen, aged collar factory worker, Troy 1111 

Kernan, John D., attorney for Employers' Association, Utica — tentative 

bills 2139 

Kerwin, John W., Moulders' Union, Schenectady — foundry bills 928 

Keyser, Harriet, V. P. Church Association for Advancement of Interests 

of Labor, New York — tentative bills 538 

Kipp, Warren W., National Sugar Refining Co., Yonkers 775 

Kirkus, Alfred R., New York Real Estate Association, New York — fire 

hazard bills 1449 

Kisch Manufacturing Co., New York — memorandum on exemption of 

textile industry from Fifty-four Hour I^w 1648 

Knickerbocker, John, president, Eddy Valve Co., Waterloo — foundry 

bill 872 

Knopf, Dr. S. Adolphus, professor of phisiotherapy. Post Graduate 
^ledical School, New York — manufacturing in tenements and the 

tuberculosis problem 1504 

Kohn, Robert D., architect, New York — fire hazard bills 1442 

Korn, Dr. Abraham, president. United Real Estate Owners' Association, 

New York — bakery bill 1280 

Lederle, Dr. Ernst J., health commissioner. New York City — bakery 

bill 1246 

Lennon, Hon. James T., mayor of Yonkers 716 

Leo, John P., Real Estate Owners' & Builders' Association, New York 

— Fire Prevention Law; board of survey 485 

Leonard, Gardner C, Cottrcll & Leonard, Albany — fire hazard bills 1087 

Le Veque, John, Woodbury & Co., grocers, Rochester — closing hour 2016 

Lezinsky, Eugene L., general manager, Cloak & Skirt Manufacturers' 

Association, New York — manufacturing in tenements 2207 

Light, Charles K., Diamond Match Co., Oswego — ventilation 206S, 2074 

Lynch, Margaret, child bean snipper, cannery shed, Rome 220 

McCaffery, John, Moulders' Union, Saratoga Springs — foundry bills. . . 924 
McClintock, A. E., Commissioner, National Foundrymen's Association — 

foundry bills gl4 

McGowan, Matthew, business agent. Central New York Moulders' Union, 

Syracuse — working conditions in foundries 78, 915, 2104 

McGovern, George B., Yonkers Federation of Labor — reorganization of 
Jjabor Department 772 



Index to Witnesses. 



XVI 1 



k 






, 



PAGE 

McGuire, Mary F., principal, public school No. 3, New York — manufac- 
turing in tenements j^oq 

Mclntyre, John C, Central Labor Union, Lancaster — women in core^ 

^*^f ™^ 1841, 1894 

McNulty, Alexander C, assistant corporation counsel. New York fire 

liazard bills ggi 

McSpadden, C, bleacli packer, Niagara Falls 638 

Mahar, Dennis M., Schenectady Trades' Assembly — reorganization of 

Labor Department 2^27 

:Main, Edna, young girl worker, knitting mills, Utica 187 

Marks, Louis B., illuminating engineer. New York — lighting of fac- 

jT'^'.r 1633 

.Marks, Marcus M., New York — manufacturing in tenements 1678 

:Marsh, Benjamin C, New York — taxation of buildings 557 

Mason, Fred, general manager, Shredded Wheat Co., Niagara Falls. .... 170 
Mauran, Max, Castner Electrolytic Alkali Co., Niagara Falls — condi- 
tions in chemical industries ^(^j 

Miles, Henry Dixon, president, Buffalo Foundry & Machine Co.— foundry 

wiis ^ ; jg35 

Miller, Rudolph P., superintendent of buildings, borough of Manhattan, 
New York — fire hazard bills ' 4^2 

Miner, Maud E., secretary, New York Probation Association — manufac- 
turing in tenements ^QCko 

Modry, Philip, secretary, New York State Association of Master Bakers 
— bakery bill ,^g 

Moore, Ann, investigator of Commission, New York — manufacturing in 
tenements ^^^ 

Mosenthal, Philip J., fire insurance broker, New York— fire hazard bills 1393 
Moskowitz, Dr. Henry, Madison House, New York — reorganization of 

Labor Department jg,^ 

Mulcahey, James J., chief, fire department, Yonkers — fire hazard . . . . . . 737 

Mullineau, David, manufacturer, hand embroidery work, New York — 

manufacturing in tenements ' jg jg 

Mulree, Robert, superintendent, Burt Olney Canning Co., Albion — 

working conditions in canneries |^ 

Murphy, Elson M., superintendent of production. Shredded Wheat Co. 
Niagara Falls *' . 

Nelson, Kate, employee, International Harvester Co. (Osborne Twine 

Works), Auburn ^^ 

Newell, William N., mechanical engineer, department of labor 1773 

Nichols, Dr. C. E., health officer, Troy — conditions in factories. . " 1091 
Norwood, Carlisle, counsel Realty League, New York — amendments to 

fire prevention law . .^ 

O'Connor, D. W., Moulders' Union, Albany — foundry bills 09 894 

O'Hara, Patrick, inspector fire department, Syracuse -fire hazard bills' 2135 
OLeary, Daniel, superintendent of licenses, Department of Labor — 
manufacturing in tenements j^^j ^^^q 



XVlll 



Index to Witnesses. 



PAQE 
O'Leary, John H., V. P. International Moulders' Union — foundry 

bills 74, &03 

^^jtMlaey, James P., president Ft. Stanwix Canning Co., Rome — working 

conditions in canneries 280 

Orsley, Steve, child bean snipper, cannery shed, Rome 217 

Page, William, bleach packer, Niagara Falls 641 

Parker, Edward, Coremakers' Union, Buffalo — women in core rooms.. 1808 
"^ Parker, Grace E. J., North American Civic League for Immigrants — 

welfare work in canneries 2200 

Parker, May A., chairman Food Committee, New York Consumers' 

League — bakery bills 1204 

Parwulska, Amelia, coremaker, Pratt & Letchworth foundry, Buffalo.. 143 
Perkins, Frances, secretary committee on safety, New York — fire 

hazard bills 546, 564, 1463 

Manufacturing in tenements 1576 • 

Phillips, Harold M., counsel United Real Estate Owners Association, 

New York — bakery bill 1297 

Piccolino, Camille, child worker, tenement house. New York 1608 

Piccolino, Mary, child worker, tenement house. New York 1604 

Pincus, William A., manufacturer of cigarettes. New York — manu- 
facturing in tenements '. 1530 

Plarre, Albert E., president N. Y. State Association of Master Bakers 

— - bakery bill 1276 

Porter, H. F. J., engineer, New York city — fire hazard bills 567 

^^^Fotter, Zenas L., New York city director cannery investigations — work- 
ing conditions in canning industry , 946 

Powers, Fred W., president Troy Collar Co.— tentative bills 1120 

Pratt, Helen Woodford, Consumers' League, New York — conditions in 

department stores 489 

Previ, Mary, employee, International Harvester Co. (Osborne Twine 

Works) Auburn 341 

Price, Dr. George M., director of Investigation 36-1 

Provert, W. T., Moulders' Union, Brooklyn — foundry bills 933 

Quigley, John P., chief, fire department, Syracuse — fire hazard bills. .. . 2075 

Rice, Harry M., Commissioner of Accounts, New York — bakery bill.. 1275 

Rausch, John F., baker, Syracuse — cellar bakeries 2129 

Richards, Miss H. E., forelady, women's core-room, Pratt & Letchworth 

foundry, Buffalo 148 

Robertson, John A., Rochester — tentative bills 2001 

Rogers, A. G., general superintendent, Carborundrum Co., Niagara Falls 

— dusty trades 690 

Rogers, Dr. Charles T. Graham, medical inspector of factories. Depart- 
ment of Labor — physical examination of children 1722 

Rogers, William C, chief mediator, Department of Labor — Bureau of 

Mediation and Arbitration 1 186 



* 



i 



IwDEX TO Witnesses. xix 

PAGE 

Rosenthal, David, manufacturer leather goods. New York — manufactur- 
ing in tenements 1533 

Sabsovitch, Dora V., investigator for commission — manufacturing in 

tenements , 1619 

Salisbury, Bert E., Pass & Seymour, Syracuse — fire hazard bills 2029 

Santry, Dr. Augustus B., health officer. Little Falls — conditions in 

factories and homes 207 

Sard, Grange, Rathbone, Sard & Co., Albany — foundry bills 876 

Sargeant, Elliot M., factory manager, Niagara Alkali Co. Niagara Falls 643 
Sause, James G., International Brotherhood of Boilermakers of America, 

Du'ikirk 1382 

Schaad, Henry J., president, Rochester Meat Dealers Association — 

Sunday closing 2017 

Schiller, Alois, baker, Syracuse — bakery bill 2125 

Schloss, Ella, tuberculosis nurse. Little Falls — general sanitary con- 
ditions jgy 

Schneiderman, Rose, Women's Trade Union League, New York — manu- 
facturing in tenements 1572 

Scinta, Rose, child bean snipper, cannery shed, Albion 401 

Sciolino, George, bean snipper, cannery shed, Albion 399 

Seka, Charles, coremaker, Pratt & Letchworth foundry, Buffalo 153 

Serraggio, Carmille, child bean snipper, cannery shed, Albion 400 

Sherman, P. Tecumseh, Former Commissioner of Labor — reorganization 

of Labor Department i236 

Sherman, Sanford T., canner, Utica — working conditions of women and 

children in canneries \{i'^ 

Shillady, John R., Trades Union Section, Tuberculosis Association, 

Buffalo — tentative bills ^g^g 

Simial, Lizzie, employee. International Harvester Co., (Osborne Twine 

Works) Auburn 3^^ 

Simkhovitch, Mary K., Head Greenwich Settlement, New York — 

mediation and arbitration T 2 133 

Smith, Frank W., chief clerk. Court of Special Sessions, New York 

— extension of jurisdiction of children's court 1698 

Smith, William B., Smith & Caffrey foundry, Syracuse— foundry bills 
Spiegelberg, Mrs. Flora, V. P. Women's National Fire Prevention and 

Protection Association, New York — removal of waste material. . . 544 

Spreckles, Louis, Federal Sugar Refining Co., Yonkers — general condi- 

^i^'^s 779 

Sowers, David W., Sowers Manufacturing Co., Buffalo — tentative bUls. 1869 
Steams, Edward C, foundry proprietor, Syracuse — foundry bills 2094 

Stein, Simon M., Stein-Block Co., Rochester — manufacturing in tene- 

°»e°*» 1983 

Stevens, Charles H., Cigarmakers' Union, Buffalo -women in industry 1899 
Stilwell, Giles H., H. H. Franklin Manufacturing Co., Syracuse — 
tentative bills ^020 

Stott, Jonathan W., W. M. Whitney & Co., Albany - conditions in de- 
partment stores f..^ 

a40 




( 



XX 



Index to Witnesses. 



Index to Witnesses. 



XXI 



PAGE 

Strasser, Max, baker, New York — bakery bill 1286 

Strib, Philip, general foreman, Waring Hat Company, Yonkers 761 

Stroebel, William L., superintendent of buildings, Utica — lire hazard 

bills 2172 

Stokes, Joseph, Metal Polishers' Union, Rochester 2009 

Sullivan, Daniel J., chief, fire department, Utica — lire hazard bills. . . . 2176 
Sullivan, John J., chief inspector, Factory Commission — conditions in 

bakeries 1336 

Sylvan, T. R., assistant to vice-president, American Telephone and Tele- 
graph Co. — one day rest in seven 1359 

Swartz, Dr. William P., New York — one day rest in seven 1362 

Sweeney, Bernard F., John G. Myers Co., Albany — conditions in de- 
partment stores 943 

Sweeny, T. J., Moulders' Union, Hornell — foundry bills 932 

Talbot, Dr. Robert J., health oflScer, Niagara Falls — tuberculosis in 

dusty trades 660 

Talley, Alfred J., counsel, Confectioners' Association for the State of 

New York — exemption from Fifty-four Hour Law for candy industry. 1039 
Tuuenbauni, Moses, fire insurance broker, New York — fire hazard bills 1731 
Taylor, William T., president, Anglo- Egyptian Cigarette Co., New York 

— manufacturing in tenements L527 

Thomas, Frank J., superintendent, Barnet Leather Co., Little Falls. ... 195 
Thorn, Edwin S., manager, Geneva Preserving Co., Geneva — working 

conditions in canneries 300 

^-^omashelski, Tony, sand blaster, Buffalo Forge Co., Buffalo 141 

Tomlin, Franklin S., Central Labor Union, Brooklyn — reorganization 

of Labor Department 1227 

Totman, Dr. David M., health officer, Syracuse — bakeries 2123 

Trump, Edward N., Solvay Process Co., Syracuse — tentative bills .... 2044 
Van Allen, John W., attorney for Buffalo Manufacturers — tentative 

bills 1793, 1874 

Van Benthuysen, Frank, representative, employing printers and binders, 

Albany — tentative bills 10174 

Van Norman, Thomas, foundry proprietor, Syracuse — foundry bills . . . 2082 

Van Slick, Elias, child bean snipper, cannery shed, Rome 227 

Vaughan, H. C, Taylor & Co., Brooklyn — foundry bills 929 

Vitrani, Mandalino, tenement worker, New York 1606 

Wald, Lillian D., head Nurses' Settlement, New York — manufactur- 
ing in tenements 1562 

Watson, Elizabeth C, director, homework investigation — general find- 
ings 1535, 1671 

Whiskeman, James P., advisory expert to Commission on Fire Hazard. 578 

Wieczork, Frances, child worker, knitting mills, Utica 186 

Wilbur, Ernest M., factory inspector, Syracuse — general conditions — 

prosecutions 2113 

Wilderman, Emil, foreman, Habicht, Brown & Co., wholesale confection- 
ery. New York — nut picking in tenenents 1690 



/ 






ft. 



Williams, Hon. John, Commissioner of Labor, Albany: page 

Present organization and methods of Labor Department 2, S7 

Manufacturing in tenements n^ 

Conditions in canneries 1 1 g 

Tentative bills generally gi i 

Foundry bills go^ 

Bakery bill jo^,. 

Reorganization of Labor Department i^qq 

Williams, J. P., Pratt & Letchworth Co., Buflalo — foundry bills. . . . . . 857 

Williamson, John E., manager, American Tobacco Co., New York — 

manufacturing in tenements j 533 

Winslow, Prof. C. E. A., professor of biology. College of the City of New 

^'ork — reorganization of Labor Department 1144 

Wise, Rev. Dr. Stephen S., Rabbi, Free Synagogue, New York — r©. 

organization of Labor Department j j^.« 

Wolf, John H., secretary. New York Laundry Owners' Association — 

hotel laundries ^^^ 

Woodward, Roland B., secretary. Chamber' of* Commerce," Rochester - 

conditions in factories ,q^- 

Young, George, boy tuber, knitting mill, Utica ['. 133 

Yat€S, Charles A., Central Trades and Labor Assembly, Syracuse-^ 
tentative bills 



John X, 
John Y, 
Witness 
Witness 
Witness 
Witness 
' Witness 
Witness 
Witness 
Witness 
Witness 
Witness 



ANONYMOUS. 

coremaker, Pratt & Letchworth foundry, Buflfalo.. 145 

coremaker, Pratt & Letchworth foundry, Buffalo 146 

No. 1, woman worker, department store. New York. ..... 493 

No. 2, woman worker, department store. New York. . . . ] . . . . 493 

No. 3, woman worker, department store. New York. ...... 506 

No. 4, woman worker, department store. New York. ...... 511 

No. 5, woman worker, department store, New York. . . . . . . . . '. 51Q 

No. 6, woman worker, department store. New York. . . . ... 521 

No. 7, woman worker, department store. New York 521 

No. I male factory worker, Niagara Falls - lead poisoning.* .' * CroO 

Ao. II male factory worker, Niagara Falls - lead poisoning 654 

^No. Ill, male factory worker, Niagara Falls — lead poisoning 656 



■■mmi 



INDEX TO WITNESSES AT HEARING ON FAC- 
TORY COMMISSION BILLS BEFORE THE JOINT 
SENATE AND ASSEMBLY COMMITTEES ON 
LABOR AND INDUSTRIES. 



'1 



I 



^ 



i 

1^ 



PAGE 

Abbott, Charles E., Wholesale Bakers' Association of the City of New 
York — bakery bill 2300 

Arnstein, Leo, secretary of the borough of Manhattan — child labor bills. 2270 

Barnum, Gertrude, organizer, Shirtwaist Workers' Union — women's 
work 2282 

Bogart, J. C, New York Flour Club — bakery bill 2302 

Brady, Peter J., Allied Printing Trades — continuance of commission.. 2243 

Claper, R. A., New York Produce Exchange — bakery bill 2303 

Connor, John F., counsel, New York State Canners' Association: 

Industrial board 22i31 

Employment of women and children in canneries 2248 

Darlington, Dr. Thomas, former health commissioner. New York— - 
sanitation bills 2283 

Doty, Madeline, secretary of the National Child Life Committee of the 
Progressive Service — child labor bills, letter from Theodore Roosevelt 
on 2274 

Elkus, Abram I., chief counsel to the commission — explanation of bills 
under consideration 2227 

Fluegelman, Henry, attorney for Allied Retail Bakers' Association — 
bakery bill 2291 

Folks, Homer, New York — manufacturing in tenements....... 2277 

Gillette, E. C, New York State Fruit Growers' Association — employ- 
ment of women and children in canneries 2260 

Goldmark, Pauline, secretary. New York Consumers' League — employ- 
ment of women and children in canneries 2266 

Gompers, Samuel, president, American Federation of Labor, member of 
the Factory Commission — bills generally; child labor 2241 

Hill, Frank P., New York City Retail Bakers' Association — bakery 
bill 2290 

Kerker, Chris., general organizer. Bakery and Confectionery Union — 
bakery bill 2307 

Bjiopf, Dr. S. Adolphus, professor of phisiotherapy. Post Graduate Medi- 
cal School, New York — child labor bills 2273 

Koch, Henry, member executive board of the Bakers' International Union 
of America — bakery bill 2310 

Korn, Dr. Abraham, United Real Estate Owners' Association, New York: 

Manufacturing in tenements 2259 

Bakery bill 2298 

[xxiU] 



X* 



xxiv Tndkx to Witnesses ox ^!o^r^^TssTox^s Bills 

PACiB 

Laidlaw, Rev. Dr. Walter, New York Federation of Churches — bills y 

generally 2282 ^ 

Lederle, Dr. Ernest J., health commissioner of the city of New York — 
bakery bill 2303 

Lewis, Stephen V., B. & L. Textile Co., Cohoes — protection of workers. 2278 

Lindsay, Dr. Samuel McCune, president. New York Association for Labor 
Legislation — reorganization of Labor Department 2234 

Lundrigan, John, Buffalo — reorganization of Labor Department 2220 

McClintock, M., National Founders' Association — foundry bills 2306 

McGovern, George B., Yonkers Federation of Labor — reorganization of 
the Labor Department 2232 

Marrone, C. J., hotelkeeper, Utica — employment of children in cannery 
sheds 2262 

Miller, Rudolph P., superintendent of buildings, borougli of Manhattan, 

New York — fire Iiazard bills 228y 

Miner, Maud, secretary, New York Probation Association — manufactur- 
ing in tenements 2280 

Morgan, Miss, president. Teachers' Association, Buffalo — employment 
of children in canneries 2265 

Morgenthau, Henry, chairman, committee on safety. New York — 
fire hazard bills 2237 ^ 

Moses, Lionel, New York Chapter American Institute of Architects 

— fire hazard bills 2290 

Moskowitz, Dr. Henry, committee on safety. New York — sanitation 

bills 2285 

Nathan, Mrs. Frederick, president. New York State Consumers' League y^ 

— women's work 2276 

Olvany, George W., deputy fire commissioner, New York — fire hazard 

bills 2286 

Palmer, Senator, employment of children on farms 2259 

Parker, Miss May, New York Consumers' League — bakery bill 2306 

Perkins, Frances, secretary, committee on safety. New York — fire y 

hazard bills 2290 

Phillips, Harold M., Greater New York Taxpayers' Association — bakery 

Wll ' 2301 

Price, Dr. George M., director of investigation — bakery bill 2305 

Rabenold, Elwood N., attorney for New York City Retail Bakers' Asso- 
ciation — bakery bill 229C 

Shillady, John R., executive secretary, Buffalo Association for Relief and 

Control of Tuberculosis — bakery bill 2309 

Simkhovitch, Mrs. V. G., Greenwich House, New York — continuance 

of commission to investigate wages paid to women and minors 2268^' 

Wagner, Hon. Robert F., temporary president of the Senate, chairman of 

the commission — introductory statement 2226 

Williams, Hon. John, Commissioner of Labor — reorganization of T^abor 

Department 2239 

Williams, Mornay, chairman. New York Child Labor Committee — manu- 

Health of bakers 1328 *^ 



MINUTES OF THE NEW YORK STATE FACTORY INVESTiaAT- 
ING COMMISSION, HELD AT THE CAPITOL, IN THE CITY 
OF ALBANY, ON THE 27tli DAY OF MAY, 1912. 



The following are the members of the above Commission 

Plon. Robert F. Wagner, Chairman, 

Hon. Alfred E. Smith, Y ice-Chair man y 

Hon. Charles M. Hamilton, 

Hon. Edward D. Jackson, 

Hon. Cyrus W. Phillips, 

Mr. Simon Brentano, 

Mr. Robert E. Bowling, 

Mr. Samuel Gompers, 

Miss Mary E. Dreier. 



Hon. Abram I. Elkus, Counsel to the Commission. 
Bernard L. Shientag, Esq., Assistant Counsel. 



Albany, K Y., May 27, 1912. 
The Commission met pursuant to adjournment. 

Present : 

Hon. Robert F. Wagner, Chairman, 

Hon. Charles M. Hamilton, 

Hon. Edward D. Jackson, 

Hon. Cyrus W. Phillips, 

Mr. Samuel Gompers, 

Miss Mary E. Dreier, 

Hon. Abram I. Elkus, Counsel, 

Mr. Bernard L. Shientag, Assistant Counsel. 

m 



i 



2 MixuTEs OF Public HearixXgs. 

Executive Session. 
Hon. Jon.\ Williams, recalled. 
By Mr. Elkus : 

Commissioner Williams, before I take up the main subjects 
01 exammation, my attention has been called to one particular 
case, and I will ask about that now, so that if jou desire you may 
make some inquiry. The Commission has been informed that a 
buildmg was burned in Brooklyn a few years ago upon which 
there were no fire escapes. The building had been inspected by 
one of the inspectors of the department, and he ordered fire es- 
capes, l)ut the order was never complied with. Do you know any- 
thing about the case ? A. I do not connect the case. 

Q. Perhaps this will refresh your mind. In the letter which 
we received about this matter, complaint was made that this in- 
spector who had failed to do his duty, causing the loss of one per- 
son's life, was only suspended for a month, but during that time 
he was allowed to go on with his work. Does that recall the cir- 
cumstance to you ? A. I think it must be the celluloid factorv that 
was referred to. 

Q. Well, if you remember the case, suppose you give us the 
facts so that we may reply to the letter which we received ? A. 
As nearly as I can remember the case was that of the celluloid 
factory on Columbia street, Brooklyn. The inspector in that par- 
ticular case was Silas Owen and he had inspected the premises 
some time prior to the fire, but as I recall the facts now, he did 
not issue an order for fire escapes. As a matter of fact, as you 
all know, since 1903, the Department has not been issuing orders 
for fire escapes in Greater Xew York. The fire occurred and 
there were some windows which were barred; iron bars on the 
windows, and as a result of this interference with the escape of 
persons, one or more lost their lives. I think as I recollect now 
that ten or eleven lives were lost. 

Q. As a result of your investigation do you remember whether 
you did suspend the inspector ? A. If my memory serves me right 
he was suspended two months. 

Q. Was he to blame in the matter ? A. He was only to blame 
to this extent, that he had failed to call our attention to the absence 



fh 



^ 






4 



Tl 



John Willia^is. 3 

of fire escapes, so that we might communicate with the Building 
Department and it was for that omission that he was suspended. 

Q. How about these bars which you speak of; wasn't that his 
business to see that the windows were not barred ? A. It was as 
a result of that fire, that the law was amended so as to require 
either the removal of bars, or that they should be so constructed 
as to be easily removable. 

Q. Up to that time you had no express authority to order the 
removal of the bars ? A. None whatever. 

Q. And it was your practice or the practice of the Department 
not to take any action in the way of ordering fire escapes on build- 
ings in :N'ew York City, but simply to reports the facts so that the 
Building Department might be informed ? A. Preciselv. 

Q. And this inspector failed to notify you of the fact that there 
were no fire-escapes ? A. Yes, as I recall it. 

Q. It was a case of a dual responsibility again. A. Yes, just as 
it exists to-day. 

Q. To-day you do not order fire-escapes ? A. IN"©. 

Q. AVas this man permitted to work while he was suspended ? 
A. He was. 

Q. What was the reason for that ? A. Simply on his plea to 
be permitted to work without salary. He was an old man, and 
this was the plea that he ptit up, that he would ieel the humiliation 
very keenly if he were compelled to lay off. 

Q. Well, it was his carelessness which had caused the loss of ten 
or eleven lives ? A. Possiblv. 

Q. I mean of course, that he did not intentionally do it, but he 
did by failing to report this defective condition to you, and of 
course your subsequent inability to report it to the Building De- 
partment contributed to cause this loss of life ? A. The presump- 
tion is that had he reported the facts, the situation might have 
been different when the fire occurred. Before I agreed to grant 
his plea, I discussed the subject with the Attorney-General. 

Q. Is that man still an inspector ? A. He is ; he is a veteran of 
the Civil War. 

Q. Xot removable ? A. ]N"ot removable except for cause. 
Q. Now, I have furnished you, Commissioner, with an outline 
of the subjects of an examination to-day, so that you are pretty 



4 Minutes of Public Heakings. 

well posted, and prepared in regard to the matters that we are 
going to ask you about ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. ]N'ow, briefly, will you tell us so that we may have a record 
of these matters, the present organization of the Bureau of Factory 
Inspection ? A. The Bureau of Factory Inspection consists of a 
chief inspector, an assistant chief, a mechanical engineer, a medi- 
cal inspector, eight supervising inspectors, a superintendent of 
licenses, and seventy factory inspectors. 

Q. May I interrupt you a moment, and ask you a question 
about this Brooklyn matter again ; what method have you of pre- 
serving discipline in the Department if an inspector fails to do his 
duty? In this case where the consequences were serious, what 
was done was to suspend him for two months; is that the only 
punishment you had ? A. We have power to dismiss, of course. 

Q. In that case you would have to have a trial ? A. In the case 
of Civil War veterans only or exempt firemen or veterans of the 
Spanish-American War. 

Q. Was the trouble with this man inefficiency? A. I should 
hardly call it that. 

Q. This complaint comes from rather an important source, and 
they seem to lay great stress on the fact that it shows a lack of 
discipline in the Department I am perfectly frank about it. 
They claim that when a man committed such a serious fault, that 
he should simply, have been allowed to go without his pay for two 
months, and at the same time allowed to go right on and do his 
work was not a punishment, and I would like to get the fullest 
explanation you can give us about the matter? A. Well, I really 
don't know that there is much to add to what I have already said 
in regard to that ; that he, as I stated was a man advanced in years, 
and I was satisfied that he was not in any sense morally guilty of 
an offense. It was an omission, an oversight, not an intentional 
act. 

Q. But did it not show, Commissioner, either a lack of training 
or lack of ability or efficiency an the part of the man? A. I 
would not say so necessarily, no. 

Q. An utter disregard for your own order? A. For failing 
te comply with the order he was punished. 

Q. But it was such a simple order to obey? A. Eather, yes. 



.. 



3 



.1. 



I» 



John Williams. 6 

Q. Was there any charge of corruption about the matter? A. 
Not the slightest. 

By The Chairman: 

As a general thing does this man do good work for the Depart- 
ment ? A. Ordinarily he does fair work. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How old a man is he now ? A. He is now 74. 

Q. Is there any age limit? A. No, unfortunately so far as 
veterans are concerned. 

Q. How many clerks are there attached to the Bureau of Fac- 
tory Inspection ? A. At the present time we have seventeen, but 
we expect to have nineteen very shortly. 

Q. What salary do the clerks receive? A. They range from 
$900 to $1,500. 

Q. Are they civil service appointees? A. They are appointed 
by the Commissioner from the civil service eligible list. 

Q. What are they, stenographers, typewriters or just ordinary 
clerks ? A. A certain number of clerks ; others are stenographers 
and others are typists. 

Q. Now, I will come back in a moment to the duties of this 
Bureau, but I will first take up the organization of the Bureau 
of Mercantile Inspection. Who is at the head of that? A. The 
mercantile inspector, Mr. James L. Gernon. 

Q. How many inspectors are there in that Bureau ? A. Eight. 

Q. Are there any supervising inspectors? A. No. 

Q. Are there any clerks attached to that Bureau? A. One 
clerk and one stenographer. 

Q. Are the inspectors in that Bureau appointed in the same 
way as the inspectors in the Factory Bureau ? A. They are ; they 
are appointed from the same list. 

Q. Do any of these inspectors receive any special training for 
that work ? A. Only as they are trained upon their entrance into 
the service, by experience with the men already there. 

Q. They receive a training after they come into your Depart- 
ment. A. Yes. 

Q. Before that they are only required to pass the ordinary Civil 
Service examination? A. Yes. 



6 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. Which requires no technical knowledge of any kind or very 
little? A. No. 

By Commissioner Gompers : 

Q. Have you a list of the questions propounded to the appli- 
cants for positions in the Bureau? A. We can have them, I 
haven't myself, Mr. Gompers. 

Mr. Elkus: Mr. Shientag has. 
By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Now, is there a separate division for the licensing of manu- 
facturing in tenement houses ? A. Yes. 

Q. Who is the head of that? A. The superintendent of li- 
censes, Mr. Daniel O'Leary. 

Q. Is he a civil service appointee? A. Civil service. 

Q. What kind of an examination does he pass, the same as that 
of factory inspector ? A. No, it was an entirely different exam- 
ination, given thirteen years ago this coming month. 

Q. A copy of the questions which is shown you is the copy of 
the questions for the examination of factory inspectors? A. I 
believe so, although I have no personal knowledge; but I presume 
they were secured from the Civil Service Commission. 

Mr. Elkus: Yes. 

The Witness: For the examination given September 16, 1911. 

Q. How many inspectors has the superintendent of licenses un- 
der him ? A. For the past three months, I think it is, we have 
had a special squad detailed to that branch of the service, ten 
inspectors for service in Greater New York. Mr. O'Leary super- 
vises the work only in Greater New York. Such tenement house 
w^ork as is done and is regulated in the other cities of the State, 
is done by the Department through the supervising inspectors now. 

Q. When did these ten men begin their work ? A. About three 
months ago. 

Q. Before that, how many inspectors were there? A. Detailed 
regularly, four. 

Q. In Greater New York or throughout the entire State? A. 
In Greater New York, but I think I ought to say that until we 




A 






John Williams. 7 

decided to create this special squad, there were periods during the 
year when a large number of inspectors were detailed to the in- 
spection of tenement houses. That is to say we diverted their 
labors from inspection of factories to the inspection of tenement 
houses. 

Q. At intervals ? A. At intervals, so as to cover that particular 
field more adequately than the small number regularly employed 
could. 

Q. How many of the factory inspectors in the Bureau of Fac- 
tory Inspection are detailed to Greater New York, and then 
divide them, giving those in the Borough of Manhattan, and the 
other boroughs? A. In what we call our Metropolitan District, 
including Greater New York and the two counties on Long Island, 
there are thirty-seven inspectors detailed to do regular district 
work. 

Q. How long have they been detailed, the thirty-seven out of 
the seventy odd ? A. Well, the districts were divided up and be- 
came effective immediatelv after the Civil Service Commission 
concluded its deliberations in regard to supervising inspectors. 

Q. When was that ? A. In January, was it, or February. 

Q. This year? A. Yes. 

Q. Now the thirty-seven inspectors you say are in the Metro- 
politan District? A. Are in the Metropolitan District; then in 
addition to the thirty-seven, there are three other inspectors, two 
of whom I would call headquarters men and one at our sub-office to 
take up such special details as may be necessary, and the third 
is in the same class and has charge of bakery inspection. 

Q. One man ? A. One man. 

Q. In New York City proper ? A. Yes. 

Q. Now the rest of the inspectors are located throughout the 
State? A. Yes. 

Q. Now, tell me how they are assigned? A. In the Albany 
supervising district, that is the district with Albany as head- 
quarter, we have five inspectors, and the territory is divided be- 
tween them. 

Q. Each man is assigned to a different territory? A. Yes, in 
the Utica district there are four. 

Q. Rochester district? A. In the Rochester district there are 
four. 



8 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. The Buffalo district ? A. In the Buffalo district there are 
five. 

Q. What other districts are there? A. That covers the entire 
State. 

Q. So that there are four districts, are there ? A Four dis- 
tricts outside of the Metropolitan District and four districts in the 
Metropolitan District. 

^ Q. You have sub-offices where, since the new law has o-one 
into effect? A. In New York, Utica, Rochester and Buffalo." 

Q. And at each one of these sub-offices is a supervising officer 

located? A. Yes, sir; moreover this office in Albany also is a 

supervising headquarters; his headquarters are right in his office. 

Q. Are they really sub-offices ? A. Oh, yes. 

Q. Where manufacturers and working people can come to get 

information and make complaints ? A. Surely. 

Q. And some one is there to receive them ? A. Yes. 
Q. Who is in charge of the office? A. The supervising in- 
spector and any other clerk or stenographer; that is to say thev 
are one, performing services as clerk and stenographer. 

Q. ISTow, these divisions into different districts, they are in- 
tended to be permanent, are they not, at least for some time to 
come? A. We expect, of course, to have them definitelv fixed 
after the first year; there may be reason for readjustment of terri- 
tory after we have covered the work for a full year. 

Q. Kow, taking up these civil service examinations, did vou 
have anything to do with prescribing the examinations ? A. ko, 
not quite as far as that; I have been appealed to for suggestions 
as to the scope of the examinations from time to time. In fact 
the schemes of examination for factory inspectors in this State 
to-day is based upon recommendations which I made thirteen 
years ago. 

Q. Do you consider the civil service examination for factory 
inspector a proper or an adequate one ? A. Well, I am not quite 
sure, Mr. Elkus, I get the point. 

Q. Is the examination adequate to get the right man for the 
place ? A. I think it is unless the State is prepared to increase 
very largely the salary paid to this class of public official. 

Q. That leads to the next question : Do you get the right men 
or must you pay a larger salary to get the right kind of men ? A. 



John Williams. 



9 



< 






I am satisfied that we could get better men if the examination 
were more technical and a higher salary paid so as to attract men 
of a higher grade. 

Q. How much higher? A. I think that to attract men of 
higher grade, the salary would have to start at $1,500. 

Q. Now, it starts at — A. At $1,200. 

Q. And goes high as what? A. As $1,500. 

Q. Xow, it goes to $1,500, but you think it ought to begin at 
$1,500 and go as high as $1,800? A. Yes, I would say go as 
high as $2,000. 

Q. And you believe, that if they began with a salary of $1,500, 
you could require them to pass a more technical examination, and 
get a better class of men? A. You could get a better class of 
men, if the plan were substantially the plan adopted in England. 
In England no one can enter an examination for factory inspector 
unless he has had a technical training. 

Q. !N'ow, is there not an oral examination for factory inspector ? 

A. 1^0. 

Q. Let me call your attention to one of the papers I have before 
me, a question like this is asked a man who is an applicant for 
factory inspector : ^^ Merchandise receipts for a week were as 
follows: Monday, $987.69, Tuesday, $759.38, Wednesday, $1,- 
478.50, Thursday, $875.49, Friday, $768.49, Saturday, $1,- 
968.75." And the applicant was told to find his average daily 
receipts? A. Yes. 

Q. Now, how does that furnish any test of the ability of a man 
to be a factory inspector ? Let me go a little further ; what I have 
in mind is this, wouldn't it be better to substitute for that, an oral 
examination of a man to determine how much practical knowledge 
he had, which would be of service in inspecting factories ? A. I 
think that the question to which you have referred is a fair ques- 
tion to test a man's knowledge of the rules of arithmetic, and I 
believe it is necessary under our present law that a man should be 
^able to compute to some degree at least. 

Q. What I mean is this: Aren't these examinations of this 
kind that I referred to calculated, unintentionally of course, to 
get a lot of men who are simply nothing but clerks, and who have 
not the ability to act as field inspectors because they are not the 



10 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



calibre of men who are able to go around, and have a practical 
knowledge of these matters ; in other words don't you by prescrib- 
ing examinations of this kind, drive out the practical men ? A. 
Let me say right there, Mr. Elkus, that so far as that feature of 
the civil service examinations is concerned, I have had absolutely 
nothing to do with it; I have never offered a suggestion. 

Q. I am not finding any fault with you; I am trying to get 
your views as to whether the method should not be changed? 
A. I want to make that clear. No, I don't think it would he 
advisable to eliminate that kind of test entirely. 

Q. Suppose a man had been a practical plumber or a practical 
carpenter, or a practical mason; now that kind of man, as he 
got on in years, might want to become a factory inspector. He 
would be a long time out of school. If he came into your office, 
and you examined him orally, you would say, he would make an 
ideal factory inspector because he has a lot of technical knowledge 
which will be very useful, and yet he could not pass that examina- 
tion if he tried a hundred years ? A. I admit that, and if the 
man's success in the examination depended upon that test I should 
say I should be in favor of eliminating the test, but as a matter 
of fact, if you, will note the value of that examination, it is not 
high, and the high value is placed upon the questions that test the 
man's practical knowledge of the matters that come up. 

By Commissioner Goaipeks: 

Q. It counts as what ? A. As one-tenth of the examination. 

Q. JSTow, the next paper for instance says, " Draw an affidavit 
charging John Doe with the unlawful use of his dwelling house 
for manufacturing purposes. Why should an inspector be re- 
quired to draw an affidavit ? A. Because in the course of his work 
outside of Greater New York, he might find it necessary to go 
before a justice of the peace, and prepare his own papei-s to 
present his own case for prosecution. 

Q. How about your sub-offices now, wouldn't they be able to 
do that; haven't they got printed forms? A. Well, but Mr. 
Elkus, the territory in the supervisor's district is very extended, 
and if we adopted that system, it might be necessary for the 
inspector to travel a hundred miles. 



John Williams. 



11 



Q. Why should he have to travel; why couldn't he write a 
letter or send a telegram? A. But he is right on the ground, 
and if he knows how to draw an affidavit he can go right before 
the justice and get the case through without loss of time. 

Q. I understand, but now a question like that would be per- 
fectly terrifying to this same carpenter or mason or plumber? 
In fact, I think it might puzzle some members of the bar to sit 
down and draw an affidavit off hand that way ? A. That is true. 

Q. What I mean is do you not eliminate by these questions, 
the very men that you ought to have in your department as in- 
spectors ? A. I don't think so. 

Q. The practical men ? A. I don't think that tHe result of the 
last examination sustains that view. We have a number of 
mechanics whom we have appointed from the last examination, 
that rather confutes that idea. 

Q. Well, I am very glad to know it. 

The Witness: Isn't that true, Mr. Whalen; haven't we me- 
chanics who have been appointed from that list? 

Mr. Whalen: Yes, mechanics, most of them, in fact all. 
The Witness: So it is not as terrifying as it might appear. 
Bv The Chairman : 

Q. Could you not really get better men if you were permitted 
to have a man come before you, and if you give him an oral 
examination as to all his qualifications and his practical knowl- 
edge ; wouldn't you be more apt to get a good man that way then 
by having him pass these examinations as to his ability to solve 
a question of arithmetic? A. I don't know whether vou remem- 
ber, gentlemen, that under Governor Black, the Civil Service 
Law w^as amended so as to provide for the very thing that you 
now have in mind, and I don't know whether vou recall that law 
was referred to as the Starch list, Civil Service Law. In 1890 
when Mr. Roosevelt was Governor, that law was amended, and 
the provision for oral examinations precedent to appointment 
was taken out, and this was the reason, that the oral examina- 
tion opened the w^ay to favoritism, and I am very frank to say 
that I would not care if I were commissioner for the revivinsr 



12 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



of that method. If, howea^er, the commission is contemplating 
the amendment of the Civil Service Law so as to accomplish that 
purpose, if the oral examination was to be conducted by a board 
rather than by one individual, I think that excellent results 
could be had. 

By Commissioner Gompees: 

Q. And of course the examination could be taken down steiio- 
graphically, and be a part of the record ? A. Certainly part of 
the record. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Now, Mr. Commissioner, is the trouble partly this: You 
have one examination for all inspectors in your department; 
that is the man who passes the civil service examination, whei] 
he is appointed, may be put to the inspection of factories proper ; 
he may be detailed to mercantile establishments, he may be de- 
tailed to the licensing bureau ; he may be put in the immigration 
bureau, and the same examination applies to each man? A. He 
can be detailed to ser\^e in either of the bureaus you first men 
tioned, but not in the immigration bureau. 

Q. In any of the others besides that ? A. Yes. 

Q. How many more? A. He may on occasion be detailed to 
collect statistics, but that never happens. 

Q. Isn't part of your trouble due to the fact that you do not 
have an examination for each particular branch of the work? 
A. I think not, because the work of a mercantile inspector and 
that of a factory inspector are so similar that there is hardly any 
difference; the methods are similar. 

Q. [N'ow, here is a question, on the next examination for 
factory inspectors which is marked subject of law: " What are the 
provisions of the Labor Law in regard to a legal day's labor in 
the operation of steam surface railroads." Now, what has your 
department got to do with steam surface railroads ? A. It is our 
duty to enforce the law that is supposed to regulate the hours of 
labor. 

Q. What has a factory inspector got to do with it? This is 
marked examination for factory inspector? A. Nothing except 
he might be occasionally detailed to do special work. We investi- 



JoiiN Williams. 



13 



gate the hours of labor on railroads only when we receive a com- 
plaint. 

Q. Well, if you have a complaint, the inspector must know 
the number of hours a day that are allowed, I suppose — A* 

Yes. 

Q. Now, suppose a man does not answer that question cor- 
rectly, that takes away a certain percentage? A. Of his rating, 
yes. 

Q. Would you suggest oral examinations along the lines which 
Senator Wagner and Commissioner Gompers indicated? A. I 
don't think there could be any objection to oral examinations, 
with the distinct understanding that such examinations should 
be conducted by a board say of three men and a stenographic 
record as suggested by Mr. Gompers be made of questions and 
answers. 

Q. Would you think that would be an improvement ? A. I 
do, yes. 

Q. Do you think you would get better men ? A. I think that 
it would be advisable; might I add this, Mr. Elkus, that in my 
opinion only those that can meet a minimum test on the law, and 
the other necessary subjects should enter the oral examination. 

Q. Commissioner, what changes would you suggest with ref- 
erence to these civil service examinations ? A. I assume that 
you caught what I said last, Mr. Elkus, that I believe that if an 
oral examination is to be provided for, that no candidate should 
be admitted to the oral examination unless he first should meet 
the test, the minimum test established as to knowledge of law and 
rules r{ arithmetic and handwriting, simple tests. 

Q. In your present examination an allowance is made of 40 
per cent., I think, for experience and prior knowledge? A. Yes. 

Q. How is that determined ? A. That is determined entirely, as 
I understand it, upon the statement of the candidate himself in 
his application for examination. 

Q. That is, he can say what he pleases, and you give him credit 
for what he says? A. That is what I understand is what the 
Commission does. A man makes oath to the correctness of his 
statement, and if it be found out later if a misstatement has been 
made by him he is dismissed from the service and he is debarred. 



14 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. Before you appoint the man, is any investigation made to 
ascertain whether or not the statements he made are true? A. 
No very critical examination; we go over his papers rather 
closely, and we make inquiries. 

Q. 'How do you find out; suppose he said, "I have been a 
plumber for fourteen years ? '' Do you ascertain whether he really 
was a licensed plumber or whether he is simply saying so ? A. 
As a rule we get that information without seeking for it; thev 
are very anxious to get into the service and they file information 
and references with us. 

Q. I know, but suppose the man is not telling the truth ; and 
you simply take his statement at its face value ? A. We do. 

By Commissioner Phillips : 

Q. I suppose the Civil Service Commission passes on it ? A. 
Yes, sir, and as I understand it they do require the references very 
frequently. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. The appointments are made by you ? A. Exactly. 

Q. What would you suggest to improve that if you think it 
needs any improvement ? A. I do not feel that it needs any ma- 
terial improvement. 

Q. Have you any other suggestions to make with regard to the 
appointment of inspectors ? A. I think not ; I have already said 
that I believe a better grade, a higher grade of inspectors could be 
had if they had to prove a certain degree of prior scientific train- 
ing. 

Q. Xow, with reference to notifying people about those civil 
service examinations, do you do that ? A. No ; that is done by the 
Civil Service Commission. 

Q. How do they do it ? By advertising ? A. I believe they do ; 
they advertise, and they print their notices and distribute them 
very extensively. I was so informed. 

Q. Have mechanics and others complained to you that they did 
not know of these examinations, otherwise they would have en- 
deavored to take them ? A. I cannot name any individuals, but I 
have heard rumors to that effect. 

Q. Is there any way of improving that so that these men would 



John Williams. 



15 



receive notice? A. Well, I really don't know; I don't know just 
how the Civil Service Commission arranges for the advertisements. 
They do not pay anything for inserting advertisements. They are 
news items. 

Q. When an inspector is appointed, a factory inspector or mer- 
cantile inspector, he is assigned to one department or the other 
upon his appointment ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And then do you train them ? A. We detail the most com- 
petent factory inspector to train the newer appointees. 

Q. He shows them the ropes ? A. Exactly. 

Q. His training, I suppose, consists in being taken around a 
few days? A. It all depends upon the aptitude of the pupil, 
whether it is two days or a week or more. 

Q. That is the end of his training ? A. I^ot exactly ; he is un- 
der training all the time. He is under training in that he is in 
touch with his superior. 

Q. Outside of the fact that he is in touch wath his superior 
do you have a preparatory period like they have in the police and 
fire department? A. Nominally. 

Q. Have you any school of instruction like they have in the 
police and fire departments of the city where the men are put to 
school? A. We have not established anything of the kind, but 
with the growth of the Department I have come to realize the 
need of something of the kind. 

Q. Then you would be in favor of establishing such a school of 
instruction ? A. Yes. 

Q. So that a man after he is appointed is only appointed on 
probation; he goes to the school, and receives systematic and 
practical training, and when he goes out to work he is trained. 
Why shouldn't there be something like that in your Department ? 
A. I have contemplated that very thing, as I stated to you ; with 
the growth of the Department, I have come to feel the need of it ; 
we expect to increase the number of inspectors within the next 
four months, and we plan to have something of that kind. 

Q. Then you will be able to teach your men to do better work 
and to do more work? A. We hope to teach them to do better 
work, and I should be very glad to see them do more work. 

Q. Are your present inspectors competent to perform their 
duties ? A. On the whole, yes. 



16 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. Are there any incompetent ones ? A. There are some who 
are less competent than others. 

Q. Are there any men who you think ought to be discharged, 
because of their incompetency ? I may as well tell you, because 
we are in executive session, and we want to be frank about this 
thing, that the Commission received a nimiber of complaints that 
the inspectors are incompetent; whether those complaints have 
any foundation in fact, we don't know? A. I think that the 
statement that they are incompetent is a little too sweeping. 

Q. Suppose I put it as inefficient ? A. Some are undoubtedly 
less efficient than we would like to have them. 

Q. Well, that is true of most of us about everything. Without 
endeavoring to embarrass you about it, what do you do if you find 
a man not as competent or as efficient as you think he ought to be ; 
have you the power to remove him ? A. Yes, but we endeavor to 
improve the quality of his service by giving him such instruction 
and assistance as we can. 

By Commissioner Phillips: 

Q. Do you think the service would he improved by a method of 
retirement on pensions after a certain age? A. I certainly be- 
lieve that. There is no such thing, now, and there ought to be. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. After a man has served a number of years, and has reached 
a certain age, he ought to be retired on pension ? A. I think so. 

Q. How many men have you now over sixty who are inspectors ? 
A. We have inspectors now who range from sixty-two to seventy- 
four. 

By Commissioner Phillips: 

Q. Have they served many years? A. The shortest period 
served by any will be thirteen years the 1st day of August ; the 
next is, I should say, twenty-two years. 

Q. You have an age limit at which you appoint them ? A. I 
cannot have an age limit, so far as the veterans of the Civil War 
are concerned. They cannot enter the examination over sixty ex- 
cept veterans. Veterans of course cannot be barred out. 



John Williams. 



17 



^<' 



r 



\ 



By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Do you think that is too old for a man to become a factory 
inspector? A. Well, I think it might be better; it would be bet- 
ter if the limit were fifty-five. I think there are many men at 
fifty-five who are capable of rendering excellent sen-ice for some 
years. 

Q. Well, it requires pretty active and constant w^ork, doesn't 
it? A. It does. 

Q. Travelling around in all kinds of weather and up and down 
stairs, and in and out of buildings ? A. Yes. 

By Commissioner HA:\aLTON: 

Q. How much salary do these men get? A. They start at 
$1,200, and there is a chance for an increase up to $1,500, only 
for a certain percentage of the force; not more than 25 per cent, 
of the force under the present limitations can ever hope to re- 
ceive $1,500. 

Q. On what method do you base the rates ? A. The promo- 
tion is on the promotion examination prescribed by the Civil 
Service Commission. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. What is the examination ; what is it briefly, showing tech- 
nical knowledge ? A. Yes, and much of it depends on what we 
call the service rating. 

Q. How many of these men over sixty-two receive $1,500 a 
year? A. One. 

Q. Only one? A. Only one. 

Q. And they are men who have been in the department not 
less than twelve and some as high as thirty-two years ? A.. The 
one who is receiving $1,500 has been in the service over fifteen 
years. 

Q. Why don't the others receive $1,500, because they have not 
been able to pass the examination? A. They have failed to 
qualify, except the last one on the list qualified ; just got through ; 
he is the lowest man on the list. 

Q. 'Now, suppose there was a pension law, would all of those 
men be retired whom you mentioned here? A. That would de- 
pend entirely on the nature of the provision. 



18 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. AVhat recommendation would you make about that pension ? 
By Commissioner Phillips: 

Q. It is only recently that you have had a $1,200 clause? A. 
Yes, that became effective October 1st. AVe had $1,000 minimum 
before that. Answering your question, Mr. Elkus, that is not a 
very easy question to answ^er, but I should put it this way, that 
the retirement should be automatic at 70 years of age, and 
earlier upon certification, medical certification, of inability to 
perform service properly. 

Q. Wouldn't you count length of service? 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Take a man in the department say only five or six years, 
it would be quite an imposition on the taxpayer, wouldn't it, to 
put him upon a pension? A. I think your pension should be 
created, according to the length of service; I believe that. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Suppose a man only has served a year or two you would 
not want to pension him? A. 'No. 

The Chairman: Except may be for having been incapaci- 
tated in the performance of his duty ? 

The Witness : That would be different. 

Bv Commissioner Phillips : 

Q. I think the Commissioner said the shortest term anv of 
those old men served was thirteen years? A. That they have 
served. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Those men you have mentioned over 62 are they able to 
perform their duty? A. They are growing less vigorous fronj 
year to year, of course. Some of them are able to do quite well. 
By the way, there is one not named here, who is missing, Louns- 
berry is omitted — Lounsberry is sixty-five, but he is one of the 
most vigorous men we have got. He is a very strong active man. 

Q. How many names have you upon the list you have before 
you ? A. Seven ; we have eight including the one who is omitted 
from this list. 



John Williams. 



19 




f 



Q. How long do the inspectors stay in the service ? Have you 
any average; have you ever calculated how long they stay? A. 
No ; they stay as long as they are able to stay. 

Q. What would you suggest as a means of obtaining inspectors 
who liave a better training and technical experience other than 
the increased salary? A. For the highest grade of inspectors 
that I have in my mind, $2,000 grade, I would prescribe gradu- 
ation from a technical school, and I should require them to have 
at least three years of practical technical experience. 

Q. How large a salary would such a man receive when he 
entered the department? A. $1,800. 

Q. Could you get a graduate from a technical school, a school 
of technology for that salary ? A. I think so. 

Q. That would be only for applicants for certain grades in the 
service? A. Exactly. 

Q. For the lower grades, what would you suggest ? A. Prac- 
tical knowledge in certain occupations that would give them 
definite and clear experience in factory lifa 

Q. Xow, are there any instructions issued by you to inspectors ? 
A. There are. 

Q. Are they printed ? A. IS^ot printed, no ; we have been work- 
ing upon a plan that we expect will be in the form of printed 
instructions. 

Q. What have you issued to them up to this time ? A, Type- 
written. 

Q. Have you got copies? A. There are copies; Mr. Whalen 
has issued some since he came in. < 

Q. I wish you would file a set with the commission. A. Yes. 

Q. What instructions are issued to new inspectors when they 
first qualify; have you got a manual for an inspector which he 
may follow ? A. No, we have not. 

Q. 'That is what you are working on now ? A. Yes. 

Q. Are any lectures given to the inspectors from time to time 
by either your medical inspector or anybody else? A. Our 
mechanical inspector has lectured the inspectors in the field in 
Greater New York and I have talked to them. 

• Q. How often do you do that ? A. Mr. Whalen, you have 
the inspectors in about once in six or eight weeks ? 



1 



20 



Minutes of Public BLearings. 



John Williams. 



21 



Mr. Whalen : It has been averaging about that ; I have had 
the different heads of the departments, Mr. O'Learj, for instance, 
speak to the inspectors. 

Q. Those are not lectures but instructions? A. Not exactly. 

Q. Those are telling them or warning th«n of certain phases 
of the law and certain things they must avoid ? A. And yet they 
are in the nature of definite instructions on certain points. 

Q. Do you attempt in any way to keep your inspectors informed 
as to changes in safety devices, machinery, for instance? A. That 
is the province of the mechanical engineer. 

Q. How often does he do that? A. We have only had the 
mechanical engineer since the 1st of October, and he has been 
working on a general plan that we have formulated. 

Q. Has he done anything about it ? A. He is working on it ; 
he has not circulated it. 

Q. You expect, when he has formulated it, to have him instruct 
all your inspectors from time to time? A. We expect to not 
only have him instruct them orally, but we expect to have pre- 
pared and printed bulletins showing designs of safety devices. 

Q. And sent out from time to time? A. Yes. We intend to 
cover certain industries, one industrv at a time. 

Q. Who is your mechanical engineer now? A. Mr. William 
!N"ewell, of ISTew York, he is a graduate of the Columbia School 
of Engineering. 

Q. Is he a civil service ajipointee? A. He was not. Ho was 
in the exempt class. 

Q. He is a very good man ? A. He was the best I could find. 

Bv Commissioner Gompers: 

*i 

Q. How many men in the Bureau ai'e practical men as dis- 
tinguished from technical men? A. You mean men who have 
practical experience by working in factories and other estab- 
lishments ? 

Q. Yes. A. Well, I cannot tell you offhand, Mr. Gompers, 
but I can very easily go over the list and determine that for you, 
and give it for the record later on. 

Q. Do you find from your observation and experience in the 
department, which has been long, that the practical men give as 
efficient service to the department as others who have purely 



technical knowledge? A. The practical men that we have are 
the best inspectors in the service, without any question, but I 
think it is only fair that I should sav of the so called technical 
men, very few if any of them are graduates of technical schools, 
such as would give them special knowledge of machinery. We 
have graduates of medical schools and graduates of law schools 
on our staff; they are technical men in a certain sense; we have 
graduates of the school of philanthropy. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Are there men who use this department just as a means of 
making their living for a year or two and then going to some 
other work? A. Very few of them so far as the Bureau of 
Eactory Inspection is concerned. 

Q. My attention has been called to the fact that some of your 
inspectors are apparently engaged in other work; that isn't per- 
mitted at all, of course, is it ? A. It is not permitted to interfere 
with their official duties ; if I find that they are engaging in other 
occupations which interfere with their official duties, they are 
invited to follow their other occupation. 

Q. Don't you think it would be better, Mr. Williams, to 
prohibit a man who is an inspector from doing any other work 
at all; that is a rule in most of the departments in the City of 
iN'ew York, for instance? A. Well, I don't know whether we 
should prohibit a man who is a graduate of a medical school 
from practicing medicine; I don't know that we should prohibit 
him from doing that in the evening, if he wants to do so, as long 
as he gives us a full day's service during the day. 

Q. But while that may be true, if he did it just as you said, 
haven't you found that where a man is in some other profession 
or occupation that the tendency is to interfere with his regular 
work ? A. When we have found that out we have separated them 
from the service. 

Q. I know, but it takes some time before vou find it out ? A. 
!N'ot very long. I will agree that we should prohibit, and we have 
prohibited anyone from practicing a profession where the practice 
of that procession interferes with his work. 

Q. Do you ask any of your inspectors to state to you whether 
they are engaged in any other business, and if so what hours 



i 



1^ 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



I 



I 



they are engaged in it, and what they do? Of course I realize, 
and the Commission realizes, you have nothing to do with a 
man's leisure hours; he can do what he pleases, but ought you 
not to know in a general way whether he is engaged in some 
other occupation ? A. I think we should. 

Q. Do you take any steps now to find out ? A. Wo have not 
taken any definite steps, no, but the number of instances where 
they have done that I think is rather rare. 
^ Q. What you do now is to wait until a man abuses his posi- 
tion, and it becomes more or less public property, and then you 
discipline him by removing him. In other words, you wait 
practically, imtil there is a little scandal, and you remove the 
cause of the scandal ? A. :N'o, I won't admit that, Mr. Elkus. 

Q. All right; do any of the Commissioners want to ask any 
questions about this branch of the examination? Otherwise I 
will go to the subject of inspection ? 

By Commissioner Dreier: 

Q. I would like to know can any inspector have any business 
which would apparently interfere with his inspection duties ? A. 
Unless it has led to interfering with his official duties I have 
not felt that it is my business to interfere with a man's conduct 
during his leisure hours. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. You would not want an inspector to be engaged in running 
a factory, even in his leisure hours ? A. Ko. 

Q. Now, we will take up the inspection both of mercantile 
establishments and factories. You divide the State into certain 
districts. Are the districts for mercantile inspection and factory 
inspection the same? A. N^o. 

Q. Now, you have given us the division in the factory inspec- 
tion districts ? What are the divisions in the mercantile inspec- 
tion districts, or have you none ? A. The division of the territory 
for mercantile inspection, which as you understand comprises 
just three cities of the first class, has been left entirely in the 
hands of the mercantile inspector. He has divided Greater Xew 
York into six general inspection districts, for each of which he 
has one inspector, and in Rochester there is one inspector and 



John Williams. 



23 






one in Buffalo, but the Rochester inspector not having as much 
work to do as the Buffalo inspector, renders assistance to the 
mercantile inspector who covers the city of Buffalo. 

Q. I want to call your attention to the definition of the word 
" factory " which the commissioners will find on page 3 of the 
pamphlet containing the Labor Law : " The term factorv when 
used in the chapter shall be construed to include also anv mill, 
work shop or other manufacturing or business establishment where 
one or more persons are employed at labor." Did you draw that 
definition ? A. I did not. 

Q. Do you know what it means ? Why is the word " also " in 
there ? A. I assume that the word " also " is inserted because the 
writer of the definition took it for granted that the term factory 
itself possessed a distinct meaning, and the other terms used 
here are to be added to it for the purpose of enforcing the Labor 
Law, added to the natural meaning of the term factorv. 

Q. What is the difference between the two definitions that are 
given here, factory and mercantile establishments? For the 
record, I will read what — on page 4, is defined a mercantile 
establishment : " The term mercantile establishment when used 
in this chapter means any place where goods, ware or merchan- 
dise are offered for sale." Under these two divisions everv mer- 
cantile establishment would be a factory? A. Taking the two 
together yes. But every factory is not a mercantile establish- 
ment. 

Q. No, every factory might not be a mercantile establishment in 
the sense that goods or merchandise are offered for sale, but 
every mercantile establishment would be a factory? A. The 
definition of factory is broad enough to include every mercan- 
tile establishment. 

Q. Do you think that is proper ? A. No, I do not. 

Q. How would you define a factory ? A. I think perhaps if 
the word '' or " at the end of the first line on page 4 — 

Q. Or other manufacturing or business establishment? A. 
The word or and the word establishment were on the following 
line stricken out, the definition might answer quite well. 

Q. Well, then, the term factory when used in this chapter shall 
be construed to mean also any mill, work shop or other manufac- 



24 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



li 



i I 



I 



turing business, where one or more persons are employed at labor? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Why would you leave in the word " also " ? Why not say 
a factory is any mill, workshop, or manufacturing establishment 
where blank persons are employed at labor ? If you would rather 
think this over and ansTver it later, 1 shall be very glad to have 
you do it. I am asking these questions for information to base 
a recommendation, but this definition is ridiculous. A. I quite 
agree with you, but at the same time I feel that the definition 
of the term " factory '' should be very carefully considered, and 
worked over so as to avoid any danger of omitting anything 
material. 

Q. I understand ; we want to make it broad enough. Do you 
think it fair to say that where one person is employed that is a 
factory; isn't that also ridiculous? A. It is imposing a very 
heavy burden upon the department, and I have felt more than 
once it was rather ridiculous. 

Q. It is impossible, is it not, to inspect every place where one 
person is employed at labor? A. Yes. 

Q. Every blacksmith shop is a factory under this? A. Yes; 
every cobbler shop except the cobbler himself. 

Q. How many people would you say should constitute a fac- 
tory, or would you like to think it over ? A. I think that where 
machinery is employed, that the number of employees should 
be kept down to a very low figure. 

Q. Well, then, to come to the question of machinery, what is 
machinery? A sewing machine would be machinery? A. I 
mean power driven machinery. 

Q. You mean by that driven by electricity? A. Yes, any 
power other than manual power. 

Q. Commissioner, I will ask you, if you will, to give this 
matter some thought and consideration and communicate with 
me about it, because we would like your views upon that subject. 

By Commissioner Phillips: 

Q. If you specify a particular nimiber working, isn't the con- 
dition likely to arise where a place will be a factory one day and 
not a factory to-morrow, a shifting back and forth ? 



John Williams. 



25 



Mr. Elkus: The same would be true with power driven 
machinery. 

Commissioner Phillips : Yes, but the way it is now one em- 
ployee is a factory. 

Commissioner Hamilton: "\^ere goods are manufactured 
for sale. 

Commissioner Phillips : That is there might be five working 
to-day and four to-morrow ? 

Commissioner Jackson : We have cigar factories where only 
one man is employed, who puts out a large number of cigars. 

Commissioner Hamilton : ^Vhere goods are manufactured for 
sale, how do you get around domestic work ? I use power ma- 
chinery for domestic purposes. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Let me ask this question: Under the present law, take 
Senator Hamilton's case. He uses power driven machinery for 
domestic purposes; he has more than one man employed; would 
you consider you had a right to inspect his place as^ a factory ? 
A. 1^0, sir, I have given this a common sense interpretation re- 
gardless of the language of the section. 

Q. Well, now, suppose there was a place where manufactur- 
ing was carried on, with Ryq men, and also in the same place they 
were offering merchandise for sale; which classification does it 
come under ? A. We would inspect the manufacturing addition 
as a factory; we do that. 

Q. And the mercantile establishment by somebody else? A. 
We are obliged to do that to-day in Xew York city.*^ There are 
many department stores which maintain manufacturing depart- 
ments. 

Q. Then you have two inspectors visiting the same place from 
your own department, one from the mercantile branch and one 
from the factory branch ? A. For different purposes. 

Q. Now, Commissioner, will you give this matter considera- 
tion and let us know your views ? A. Yes. 

Q. Have you different kinds of inspection of factories and 



26 



Minutes of Public Heakixgs. 



i( 



mercantile establishments ? A. Yes, we have what we call our 
regular or annual inspection and we have special inspections. 

Q. Xow, will you explain to the commission the difference? 
A. This is the factory inspector's book he carries with him in 
the course of his field work in which he reports whatever ho 
observes ; this is made in detail. 

Q. May I look at it ? A. In all the inspections that we call 
regular annual inspections — 

Marked exhibit 1.* . • 

Q. This book is given to each inspector ? A. Yes. 

Q. For the purpose of filling out annually ? A. Y"es, sir. 

Q. This is for the purpose of filing with your department? 
A. Exactly. 

Q. And giving you information? A. Well, that book is for 
the inspector's record, the record for the department. 

Q. Does he keep this ? A. Yes ; that book is in his hands and 
it is filed. 

Q. What does he do with it then? A. Turns it over to the 
supervising inspector. 

Q. Then it is filed with the department? A. Yes. 

Q. To fill this book the inspector goes around to the factory- 
in his particular district? A. Yes. 

Q. And where he does his work, he asks for the information 
which is desired by these blanks, and fills it out, and then when he 
gets through and the book is filled up, he files it with the super- 
vising inspector ? A. Yes. 

Q. Xow, if he discovers any violations of the law, he reports 
them ? A. He reports all of his inspections whether he discovers 
violations of law or not. 

Q. When does he hand in these inspections? A. Daily; he 
transcribes them. 

Q. Transcribes them on this card (indicating) which is a 
duplicate? A. Yes. 

Marked exhibit 2. 

Q. Xow, the inspector starts out and works how long? He 
starts out early in the morning, I suppose at 9 o'clock or 8 



*Thp exhibits referred to in the cour e of Commission t Williims' teitiimny are insf^rted at 
page 68. 






John Williams. 



27 



o'clock? A. Well, we expect every inspector to be right in the 
field at work not lat^r than 9 o'clock. 

Q. Does he report to any one before he goes to work ? A. He 
goes right to work. 

Q. Xow, he begins at 9 and works until 12 or 1 ? A. It all 
depends on the character of the work he happens to be engaged 
in. 

Q. On this particular work of filling up this book? A. He is 
supposed to give us a whole day's work, whether it is 4, 5 or more 
hours in the field. 

Q. But he is expected to allow enough time for himself to go 
to his home, and fill out the card which is a duplicate, of what 
he takes down in the book ? A. He is obliged to do that. 

Q. Does that at his home? A. Y^es. 

Q. That is mere copying Avork? A. Y"es. 

Q. It is a fact, is it not, that the majority of inspectors work 
three or four hours in the field, getting the information which 
they put in the book, and go to their home, and copy the same 
information they have on their book? A. Y^es. 

Q. So that perhaps half of their time is spent in copying? 
A. Perhaps not quite half. 

Q. And a great deal of the information which they copy, and 
which requires work on their part, requires simply clerical work ? 
A. Y"es. 

Q. Wouldn't it be possible to save a great portion of the time, 
which is more or less wasted in copying; could there be some 
method devised by which the inspector who is trained to inspect 
buildings and not to do mere copying, could have this copying 
done by a typewriter or clerk, instead of doing it himself? A. 
I am afraid that that would not work out verv well. 

Q. Then let me ask you this question ; what is the necessity of 
this card being sent to you by the inspector ? A. It is not sent to 
me; it is sent to the office; that is the office record of the inspec- 
tion, and the recommendations of the inspector, if any, are made 
and incorporated on the card. 

Q. Would it not be very easy to have a carbon sheet for in- 
stance, put in this book, and these pages printed in duplicate, and 
when the inspector wrote down the information in the first in- 



28 



Minutes of Public HEAiuNas. 



,1; 



stance, a duplicate would be made at the same time, and could be 
sent to you without having to take it home for half a day to copy 
it? A. Theoretically that plan seems an excellent one, but in 
practice it occurs to me it would not work out very well. 

Q. Why not? A. For this reason. The inspector passes 
through the factory with a book in his hand and makes notes with 
a pencil as he goes along. It would be impossible for him to make 
legible copies for the record, if he attempted to do it, it would be 

a failure. 

Q. Then you say the copying processes are not sufficiently im- 
proved to permit this to be done that way? A. That is my judg- 
ment, sir. 

Q. Why couldnH the inspector at the end of each day's work, 
instead of having to keep his book intact, tear out or have two 
books or three books, if you want to keep them in book form, send 
in one book at the end of each day to the office, and have a type- 
writer copy this out ? What I am trying to get at, Commissioner, 
is this: It is quite evident that your inspectors only do half a 
day's field work, and spend the rest of the time instead of inspect- 
ing, in copying out this information which may or may not be 
very important, ^ow, as a matter of fact, everybody knows that 
the best preventative of accident and danger in factories is con- 
stant inspection. If by some simple device you can double the 
number of inspections by having the copying done with the type- 
writer, why should it not be adopted? A. I must confess that 
the suggestion does not appeal to me, for in the first place, if we 
were to consider the adoption of the suggestion that the leaves 
should be cut out of the book and turned into the office, the office 
record would not be in the condition it ought to be preserved in for 

a public record. 

Q. Why not? A. You know very well how difficult it is for 
a man or a women to write legibly as he walks along or as she 
walks along in the course of work, going through a factory with 
several floors, many of them with four, five or six stories, and 
going from floor to floor; it does not and never has appealed to 
me that it would be a practical thing. 

Q. Then your point is, is it, that the people who copy the record 
would not be able to read the handwriting of the inspector? A. 
That is very true. 



John W^illiams. 



29 



if 



f 



Q. But most of the writing is the mere insertion of figures, and 
if you print this book in a little larger size, giving a little more 
space to the writing, that would permit more legibility perhaps; 
these are simply suggestions of mine ? A. I do not think it would 
provide for more legibility, because the inspector as he passes 
through would have to make his notes and he would spend so much 
time in writing legibly, according to the needs of the service that 
he would have a fewer number of inspections made than are made 
now. 

Q. Well, let me ask you this: Is it necessary that you should 
have all this information about a factory once a year ? A. I think 
so. 

Q., Well, then. Commissioner, you do not approve of any 
method that is going to do away with the inspector only spend- 
ing half of his time in actually inspecting and devoting half hifl 
time copying? A. I am particularly anxious to work out any 
plan or scheme that will reduce the clerical work, but I don't feel 
that we ought to reduce the clerical work at the expense of the 
records of the Department. 

Q. Well, couldn't you simplify this card, cut down a great deal 
of the information that you ask for ? A. I have been considering 
that very seriously ; I am not sure but that we might be able to 
do that. On the other hand, we have got to consider this danger, 
the danger of the inspector overlooking something that might be 
vital. 

Q. Is all this information necessarv each vear? Wouldn't it 
be sufficient to have it for a factory once every five years, and then 
have a card giving certain information every year? A. That 
would mean this, Mr. Elkus, that we w^ould have to depend ab- 
solutely on the judgment and the honesty of the inspector for 
accuracy regarding conditions noted; moreover, when orders are 
issued as result of an inspection and appeals are received by the 
Department against certain orders, w^e refer to the card, and 
from the card we are able to determine what the inspector noted. 
If we eliminate this material from the card, and allow the in- 
spector to report in a general way upon conditions, and to make 
his recommendations, and appeals come to us from such recom- 
mendations, we would have to go back to the inspector before we 



30 



Minutes of Ptrlic Heakings. 



could be sure that our understanding of conditions was correct; 
we do not have to do that to-day. We have got his record; we 
see through this card what the inspector saw. 

Q. You might have seen what he saw a year before in the first 
place, or six or eight months before and the conditions might be 
entirely chanced in that time, but wdien vou have definite condi- 
tions it is easy enough to get the recor<ls in full ; you always have 
a special report anyhow, don't you ' A. Yes. 

Q. Won't you try the experiment of having it typewritten, hav- 
ing these cards copie<l from the books instead of having the in- 
spector take half his day off to copy it i What we would like to 
do. Commissioner, and I think this is the opinion of the Com- 
mission, is to increase the number of inspections; if we could 
double them so as to inspect twice a year instead of once a year, 
as now, or three times or four times a vear, vou would find condi- 
tions improved very greatly ; isn't that so ? Perhaps I ought to 
ask you that question instead of stating it as a fact. A. Undoubt- 
edly the more frequent inspections w^e have, the better the con- 
ditions, but what I was going to say is that if we are to consider 
seriously the idea of having the books turned in, and a permanent 
record made by a typewriter, it would involve a very, very large 
increase in our clerical force ; it would mean that we would have 
to provide a typist for a small group of inspectors, to do nothing 
else but to prepare those cards. 

Q. One typist could probably do the work of pretty nearly all 
your inspectors in Xew York City? A. I must disagree with 
you very seriously on that. 

Q. Where is that card that is filled out ; look at the work upon 
it. That is only once a year ; how long do you think it would take 
a typist to fill out a card with that information or a copying clerk ? 

Commissioner Gompers : It would be a division of labor. 

A. It would. 

Q. And the constant application of any particular person to 
that branch of the work would afford the opportunity of doing it 
faster? A. It might; I should think it ought to. 

Q. And it would place you in much greater control of your 
men, your inspectors if they were doing field work all day long, 



John Williams. 



ol 



) 



and were not taking their own time to suit themselves, as to when 
they w^ere doing copying? A. Of course, you want to remember 
this, that there are certain items of clerical work that are un- 
avoidable. The inspectors will have to, no matter whether we are 
to consider seriously the adoption of the suggestion made with 
reference to the regular inspection card, take their records of 
child labor and their investigation of complaints, and their daily 
summaries of work performed; there are various features to the 
clerical work. 

Q. I do not think I make myself clear. Commissioner; where 
there are defective conditions or improper conditions, the in- 
spector who is getting all the details, all the facts in full, you have 
a blank under here for that purpose, but where there are no de- 
fective conditions, why could you not omit a great deal of this 
information that you require every year, and get along just as 
well without it. For instance whether the boilers belong to the 
proprietor or owner, or to the occupant? A. I admit there are 
many among those things which might be omitted without any 
harm; on the other hand let us assume for the moment — 

Q. May I interrupt you a moment? I am not finding any 
fault with you about this matter. I am discussing the thing to 
see whether or not you cannot bring about what is desired by 
everybody, more inspections by the inspectors, to give them more 
time to make visits. Minimize as much as possible all the work 
except the visits of inspection ? A. I can understand, ^Ir. Elkus, 
your Commission is considering this from the standpoint of the 
general public. I am considering it from the department stand- 
point. Let us assume for the moment that we change the plan, 
and that instead of making the annual inspection on that card, 
we adopt this card (indicating) for regular inspection. 

Q. That is a blue card ? A. Yes. 

Marked exhibit 3. 

Q. This blue card which you now show me is for what purpose ? 
A. Special inspection. 

Q. That is where somebody makes a complaint? A. For any 
purpose. Let us assume that we substitute the blue card for the 
regular factory inspection card; an inspector is allowed to report 



32 



Minutes of Public Heakintgs. 



certain conditions as he finds them in the course of his work ; the 
inspector reports the establishment in a satisfactory condition. 
And the next week after his visit we receive a complaint, a spe- 
cific complaint regarding certain things. We have absolutely 
nothing to check the inspector about. • 

Q. How do you mean you have nothing — A. We have no 
card showing his inspection of definite things. 

Q. I understand, but if he does not report that anything is 
defective or unlawful or improper, you presume, do you not, that 
he finds everything in proper form ? A. We do, yes. 

Q. Now, what difference does it make whether he fills in all of 
the details, and says, I found the fire-escape and I found the 
owner owTied the boiler, or that he leased it from somebody, and 
I found they allowed thirty minutes for lunch. 1 found a sepa- 
rate room for women, when that is the law and you expect that. 
A. On the other hand on this card we do not permit the inspector 
to overlook and omit things. 

Q. But by his setting down and checking these things off, that 
does not put them there? A. But it does this; if he submits 
improper or false information, we have got him on the record. 

Q. The whole point is to trap the iuspec^tor ? A. It is to com- 
pel him to make a full inspection. 

Q. Let us see if you can do it tlii^^ way. Suppose the inspector 
had a book, printed the way this is; he had a list of all these 
things which would be a guide to him to follow, and as he found 
the things, he checked them off, just as he does on this slip that 
is printed out; most of them are checks. He simply puts the 
check. Why cannot he have a book and put at the top of the page, 
factorv 257 Hudson Street, and as he runs down that list, he 
checks them off for his own guidance; now, all he reports to you 
is on the blue slip ; when he reports that blue slip, and does not 
report any defective or improper or unlawful conditions, and he 
has this guide or manual to show for himself that he has followed 
it, then you have a right to assume properly there are no defec- 
tive or unlawful conditions, and you have also the right to as- 
sume you furnished him with a guide or manual which covers 
all the things he has to do. Isn't that a very simple solution of 
the whole thins: ? A. It sounds very simple. 



John Williams. 



33 



I 






By Commission Gompers : 

Q. Might there be some explanatory note on the blank or the 
book stating that a check of this kind, an X or an O, would indi- 
cate that the conditions were in accordance with law, where this 
X or O appears ? A. That is substantially the system we follow 
now, Mr. Gompers ; the checks are usually affirmative. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Now, of course I realize that you want a lot of this in- 
formation for your statistical department and that is valuable, 
bull that could be given in this book ? A. We only want th^ in- 
formation called for here. 

Q. Well, you will consider these matters and give us your best 
judgment about it? A. I should be very glad to consider them. 

Q. With this end in view, to see if we cannot increase the 
number of inspections. In other words, see if you cannot do this : 
Make an inspector work all day long inspecting, and not permit 
him to sit in his house or any place else filling out, doing clerical 
work of a very low grade? A. I shall be very glad to promise 
unreservedly to look into the matter and seriously with a view of 
improving the service, but I do not want the Commission to mis- 
understand my attitude, I am not willing to change the system 
unless I am entirely satisfied that the Department will get fully 
as good results, and that the records of the Department will be in 
such shape, as to enable us at all times to determine for ourselves 
the actual conditions in these establishments. 

By Commissioner Gompers: 

Q. Now, Mr. Commissioner, the matter which Mr. Elkus, our 
counsel, has discussed with you, and upon which he has questioned 
you, are generally of an administrative character, aren't they, 
subject to your direction? A. They ara 

Q. Not provided by statutory law ? A. They are entirely in 
my discretion, Mr. Gompers. 

Commissioner Williams: We have got some clerical work 
that the inspectors must do that they cannot avoid. 

Vol. Ill — 2 






34 



Minutes of Public Heaeings. 



By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Oh, yes, there is no doubt about that, but let us minimize 
it as much as possible. A. I am perfectly willing to say that I 
am with you heart and soul on anything that will enable us to 
secure a larger amount of work. 

Q. Nobody doubts that, Commissioner. Now, get that out of 
your mind. We are not here to find fault with your department 
at all; this is a mutual help society. Now, take the question of 
child labor. What inspection do you make with regard to that ? 
I mean do you have jurisdiction over child labor in mercanti'^ 
establishments? A. Yes. 

Q. Child labor in tenement houses? A. We have nothing to 
do with child labor in tenement houses. 

Q. I am coming to that; child labor in factories, you have in- 
spections to see whether or not children are over 14 years of age 
and if they are between the ages of 14 and 16, whether they are 
provided with necessary certificates? A. Yes. 

Q. What is your system in regard to that, are there special 
inspections for that ? A. No. 

Q. Or do the usual factory and mercantile inspectors cover 
that? A. They do. 

Q. You have a book in your hand with reference to what? 
A. That is a book that the inspector is required to use i4 every 
case where a violation of the Child Labor Law is discovered. 

Marked exhibit 4. 

Q. That is where a child is under the age of 14 ? A. Or be- 
tween 14 and 16 without an employment certificate. 

Q. And in this book you ask for the signature of the child? 

A. We do. 

Q. And information al)Out the child itself so that you may 

base a prosecution? A. Yes. 

Q. And this book is carefully prepared for the purpose of 
prosecuting the parents of the child and the employer? A. In 
case the chief inspector orders the prosecution, the inspector has 
the information necessary to base his action upon. 

Q. Let me commend this book for its simplicity. Now, take 
the question of child labor in the tenement houses, you have 






John Williams. 



35 



nothing to do with that at all ? A. Unless the children are em- 
ployed in the tenement houses in connection, with the factory. 

Q. In other words, if a man or a woman as well as children 
are working in a tenement house, in their own homes, you con- 
sider that you have no jurisdiction at all over the employment of 
the children ; is that the point, that you do not interfere because 
you have no jurisdiction? A. If the parent were conducting 
a factory we would. 

Q. Well, now, a factory under the definition is where one 
or more persons are employed? A. Yes; a child is not an em- 
ployee, is he? 

Q. I am asking you, suppose a man, his wife and six chil- 
dren under 14 were working there, and you found them working, 
you would not interfere because there would be a question as to 
whether the child was employed at labor? A. I should think 
there would be a very serious question unless there were some 
other, than members of the family employed. 

Q. You mean because they would not be employed at a salary 
or for pay ? A. Yes. 

Q. Have you ever had that question tested; have you ever 
tried to interfere and stop a child under 14 years of age, working 
for a factory in its own home ? A. No. 

Q. Of course, you are familiar through your inspectors with 
the fact that in tenement houses whole families consisting of the 
father and mother and a number of children, children beginning 
at a very young age up to 14 are working, and working more than 
the hours that the law provides for those children in a factory '^ 
A. We have been so informed, but my attention has not been 
ofiicially called to many instances. 

Q. Well, it has been proven before this Commission under 
oath that that was the fact; now, your department has thus far 
never attempted to interfere in that way? A. No. 

Q. And the only reason you have not attempted to interfere 
is because you do not think that that place came within the defi- 
nition of a factory ? A. Exactly. 

Q. Is there any law which covers them at all which you know 
of? A. So far as working in the home is concerned? 



36 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 






It; 



Q. Yes. A. 'No, not outside the Public Education Law. 

Q. The only law you have is the Compulsory Education Law ^ 
A. Yes. 

Q. And of course that only applies for a certain number of 
months during the year, a certain number of hours during the 
day, and a certain number of days during the week ? A. Yes. 

Q. What is your opinion of this kind of work, do you think 
it ought to be permitted; do you think it ought to be regulated? 
Do you think it is a good thing or a bad thing ? A. I believe it 
ought to be regulated. 

Q. In what way ? A. That is rather a hard question ; I don't 
know that I am prepared to express my views in detail upon the 
question of further regulation of tenement house work. 

Q. Now, let me put this question : Do you think a child under 
the age of 14 should be permitted to work at home at the same 
kind of work which he would not be permitted to do in a factory ? 
A. For its parents ? 

Q. For its parents, I mean making a business of a child's labor ? 
A. I don't think that making a business of a child's labor ought 
to be permitted in the home any more than elsewhere. 

Q. Of course working for the parents for home consumption 
is a different thing? A. Yes. 

Q. I don't mean to include anything of that kind at all, but you 
know as a matter of fact. Commissioner, that some factories have 
what tliey call tenement house branches, really, where they send 
the work out to be done by families, consisting of men, women 
and children, and many of them very young children? A. Yes. 

Q. 'Now, that is what I refer to. Will you give me your views 
as to that, whether it should bo prevented and how it should be 
prevented? A. Well, I don't think I am competent, to say how 
it should be prevented, but I do say that I think that the labor of 
children, that is the commercial employment of children in the 
home, should be prevented just as much as in the factory; how 
that can be accomplished in view of some of the decisions that 
have been rendered is a question that perhaps should bo referred 
to members of the legal profession ; I am not competent to answer 
it 



John Williams. 



37 



. 



By the Chairman: 

Q. Eight on this tenement house question, just to clear my 
own mind, you have the power now to issue a license to permit 
certain kinds of manufacturing to be done in tenement houses, 

haven't you ? A. Yes. 

Q. Under that section would not that give you the right to 
inspect every year with reference to the character of the employ- 
ment going on in tenement houses ? A. IS^o. Sanitary conditions 
only. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Of course, if these places are factories, you have full power 
over them? A. Yes. 

Q. Have you ever asked the Attorney General for an opinion 
on the subject — take a concrete case like this, take these people 
who crack nuts and prepare nut meat for the market, where they 
bring from ten pounds to a big bag of nuts — they bring it home 
and the children and the whole family work ten, twelve, four- 
teen and sixteen hours a day preparing the nut meat for sale, 
and it is not done for home consumption; it is done for the mar- 
ket, and you get a clear case like that, don't you think you could 
make up a case and ask the Attorney General for an opinion as 
to whether or not that is a factory? I should be very glad to 
have your opinion on that? A. If you think it should be done. 
I should bo very glad to submit it. 

Q. I think it should be done. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. My own opinion is that it is not a factory, because you 
have a section of law which describes what a tenement house is ? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And then another definition for a factory? A. Yes. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. A factory is any place where one or more persons are em- 
ployed at labor. 

The Chairman : Yes ; then it follows with a definition of the 
tenement house. 



38 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Mr. Elkus; Well, it would only be a tenement house factory. 

The Chairman : But to distinguish between the two ; one is a 
tenement house, and the other is a factory. 

Mr. Elkus: It might be both. It might be a factory in a 
tenement housa 

The Witness: Mr. Elkus, wouldn't the question hinge on 
whether or not the child so employed by its parents in the house, 
would fall within the definition of an employee? 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. What does this mean, " Where one or more persons are 
employed at labor ? " Now, the question is what is the construc- 
tion of the word employee? Does an employee mean a person 
earning a salary or earning money ? Does it mean some one en- 
gaged at doing labor ? A. The meaning of employed is governed 
by the definition of employee. 

Q. Well, it says one who works for another for hire ? A. Yes, 
that means work for compensation. 

Q. Any compensation. Well, if you had the case of a child 
who is being paid ten cents a week for its work, you would have 
a case of a factory ? A. Yes, but the burden of proving the pay- 
ment of compensation would be upon us. 

Q. Yes, but it is not very difficult to get the proof. 

Commissioner Dreiee: The child would not be paid, as a 
matter of fact. 

The Witness: May I say that we never hesitate to prose- 
cute the parent in whose factory we find his own children. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. !N'ow, suppose you find what in some of those cases as I 
understand is the fact, according to testimony we had, that neigh- 
bors came in, grown up people worked in the tenement houses and 
were being paid for work, but the children were not paid. That 
would be a factory, wouldn't it ? A. Technically, yes ; and our 
business in that ease would be to prevent that sort of thing. 



John Williams. 



3& 



I 



Q. I want to find a means of doing away with something which 
you say ought to be prevented ? A. I should be very glad indeed 
to work up a case for submission to the Attorney-General. 

Q. If it meets with your approval, I think the Commission 
should be glad to suggest it. A. We can get an opinion from 
the Attorney-General on that subject, and it might be very help- 
ful. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Where manufacturing is done in tenement houses and there 
are any employees doing this manufacturing, you have jurisdic 
tion, haven't you, to inspect ? A. Then it becomes a factory. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Now, you take the ordinary case where work is sent home 
from a manufacturer to a tenement house, not to a tenement house 
licensed factory, but to a home, and in that work the parents use 
a child under 12 years of ago, the child receives no pay from the 
parents, but the work is paid for by the manufacturer; he pays, 
we will say in the case of manufacturing garments, he pays so 
much a garment for the completed article, and that payment in- 
cludes the work of the child itself; now, wouldn't that make the 
child come under the definition of an employee? A. Rather 
doubtful, I think, for the reason that the manufacturer is clearly 
within his rights under the law in giving the work to be done in 
that tenement house, and unless the law is amended — 

Q. I am not trying to reach the manufacturer ; don't make any 
mistake about that. I am not in this supposition trying to reach 
the manufacturer. I am trying to put that child within the 
category of a child who is working in a factory and therefore 
must be 14 years of age, at least, and must work at least eight 
hours a day. A. Let me express my opinion that I don't think 
that you can reach that child at all, unless you reach him through 
the manufacturer. 

Q. Well, that is the practical means; you mean you go after 
and prosecute the manufacturer ? A. No. I mean with ref ernce 
to the illustration you have given ; that is the suggestion I have 
had in my mind; I have hesitated somewhat about expressing it, 
that the simplest and most effective means of regulating the em- 



40 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



John Williams. 



41 



ployment of children in tenement houses is to amend the law 
so as to prohibit anv manufacturer from giving out work to be 
done in any family wherein there are children below a given age. 
Q. Well, of course, you cannot do that because they might not 
use the children. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Where children below a certain age do any of the work? 
Bo you think now. Commissioner, that there is a legal obstacle 
against your interfering in any way with a child under 12 from 
helping the mother or father in working in a tenement house i 
A. We have no authority under the existing law. 

Commissioner Phillips: You cannot say that the child is 
working for hire. 

The Chairman : Why not ? The mother gets the pay, but 
the child contributes toward the labor. 

The AViTNESs : In whose hire is the child ? 
By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. What difference does that make ? We will say he is in the 
hire of the manufacturer. 1 say in other words suppose the 
manufacturer said, " I will employ you and your child, and 1 
will pay you five dollars a week for your work, including your ■ 
child's work ; that would make the child an employee, would it 
not? A. Of the manufacturer? 

Q. That would be a factory ? mw, suppose instead of doing 
that that the manufacturer says, " I give you four garments 
which I want you to work upon or finish or manufacture, yen 
and your child, and T will pay you instead of five dollars a week, 
I will pay you one dollar a garment. 

Commissioner Phillips : Suppose the manufacturer does not 
say anything about the child ; then the child would not be under 
the hire of the manufacturer. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Unless he knew there was a child ; but that would not stop 
you from preventing the child from working, because while you 



^ 



have the right to punish the manufacturer for disobeying the law, 
at the same time you have the right to stop the child. If you 
cannot bring knowledge home to the manufacturer, you can still 
take the other end of the thing, and stop the child from working: 
isn't that so? A. I wish I could agree with you, Mr. Elkus, but 
I really cannot. I do not think we have any right to go there 
under any existing law. The place is not a factory, and you 
cannot by any stretch of the imagination make it a factory, even 
though the woman gets the work from the manufacturer ; he does 

not pay rent. 

Q. It is a factory if there is one person employed there for hire ? 

A. As a matter of fact — 

Q. I can show you a way out as easy as anything. It is a fac- 
tory if one person is employed for hire, isn't it, am I right ? A. 
Yes, if employed for hire, yes, sir. 

Q. Now, the father or the mother, somebody makes a garment 
for the manufacturer, by which for a certain sum of money he or 
she agrees to do a certain amount of work ? A. Supposing it is 
bv contract? 

Q. I do not care how it is according to this definition " for 
hire " means anything ; that is the broadest possible term ; any- 
thing is a contract in the law, anyhow ; now, am I not right ? A. 
But the difficulty lies here. 

Q. Will you answer my question ? 

Commissioner Dreier : 'No, you are not right because she goes 
elsewhere to work. 

Mr. Elkus : That does not make any difference ; a factory is 
a place where one or more person are employed at labor. 

Commissioner Phillips: Must be a manufacturing or busi- 
ness establishment. 

Mr. Elkus: Any mill, workshop or other manufacturing or 
business establishment. 

Commissioner Phillips: Business establishment must be the 
predominating idea of the thing. 

Mr. Elkus: No, it is not. 



42 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



John Williams. 



43 



Commissioner Dreieb: But he gives out work. 

Mr. Elkus; The point I am getting at is this: You take 
the very ordinary case of a man who has a factory, a manufactur- 
ing establishment of his own. The woman comes to him, and 
takes home garments to bo finished ; she does that under an agree- 
ment with him that he will pay her so much for the work when 
completed. She takes the work to her home and does the work. 
Now, in the first place when she does that work, she does it in a 
workshop, because wherever she works is a place of manufacturing 
and as long as only one person need be employed at labor you 
make it a factory ; then the place where she works is a factory, 
provided she is employed at labor. 

Commissioner Phillips : This being a penal statute, is to be 
strictly construed, and I do not think the courts are going to do any 
fine reasoning, to convict any one under it. I think you have got 
to have your language more express. 

The Witness : Is it not true that when A contracts with B, 
that B is just as much a principal as A ? 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. You insist upon going back to see who the manufacturer 
is? An independent contractor, the mother or the father, or 
whoever it is, is a manufacturer; that is your point? A. Yes. 

Q. Because instead of working for a wage, they work for so 
much a garment ? A. Yes. 

Q. That would make every case where piece-work is done in a 
factory — would not make tliem employees ? A. Except that they 
were in premises given over to manufacture. 

Q. What difference does that make? This man might say, to 
get around the factory law, " I will give you this small place free 
of rent,'' and make a contract with you to finish garments at so 
much a thousand, and you are an independent contractor? A. 
That is done to-day, and we apply the law. 

Q. If you apply it that way, can not you apply it when they 
take it home? A. Another law recognizes the right of the tene- 
ment dweller to do certain things within the home. 

Q. What law ? A. Section 100. 



Q. It says they can make certain articles, but those are the only 
articles that they can make at home ; they cannot make any others ; 
then it goes on to say that as to those they must get a license. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Commissioner, the whole matter is one of grave doubt, and 
you will get the opinion of the Attorney-General ? A. Yes. 

Q. You are of the opinion that those working children under 
the age of fourteen in tenement houses — I don't mean doing 
home work, or doing occasional work, but doing regular work, 
engaged in working at hard work for long hours is a great evil ? 
A. Just as serious an evil in the home as it is in the factory, if 
it exists, and we know that it does exist. 

Q. Now, Commissioner, I interrupted you when you were tell- 
ing us about other inspections ; you started to tell me that you had 
all your blanks ready ? A. There is a complaint card. 

Q. The pink slip marked C is a complaint card, and will be 
marked Exhibit 6. Tell us what that is for? A. When 
a complaint is received at the office, the substance of the 
information conveyed is written by a clerk upon his card, and it 
is then referred to the inspector, whose duty it is then to inspect 
and to file a report upon this card, and in addition, if there are 
conditions which warrant such action, file a blue card with such 
recommendations as may be necessary to correct the conditions 
noted. 

Q. Well, now, this pink card is filled out by a clerk, giving 
simply the substance of the matter complained of? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, when he goes there on a special inquiry, on a com- 
plaint, does the inspector fill in all of this information again 
about the office help, messengers, how many employed under eigh- 
teen years, how many under sixteen, and all the information you 
have on Exhibit 2 already ? A. Only in case the conditions com- 
plained of, or the violations noted, affected in some way the em- 
ployees so that it will be necessary for the office to secure definite 
information as to the exact number. For instance, if the com- 
plaint is as to the inadequacy of toilets for either of the sexes 
and it is sustained, we must know how many are then employed. 

Q. Well, then, there is nothing on this card which indicates to 



44 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



m 



the inspector what he must give, and what he must not give, even 
under any circumstances ? A. No. 

Q. He is confronted with that same other rule? A. The 
method is explained in instructions given. 

Q. What other cards or blanks have you ? A. This is a special 
blank recently gotten up. 

Q. Marked I H. What does that stand for? A. Illegal hours. 
Marked Exhibit 6. 

The Witness : Whether a complaint is made or not ; if our 
inspector discovers that children are working during illegal hours, 
working before eight o'clock in the morning or after five o'clock 
in the evening, or more than eight hours, that slip must be filled 
out, and when filled out, it is held by tlie inspector, and he must 
return, to see whether or not the violation has ceased ; if the viola- 
tion has ceased, that closes the case. 

Q. Why should he fill it out ? Isn't it in this book ? A. He 
does not always make the I. H. when he makes this inspection. 
That is apt to be necessary when he makes an S. I., a special 
inspection. 

The Witness : And if upon his revisit he finds that the vio- 
lation has not ceased, that slip goes automatically to counsel, 
whose business then is to prepare papers for prosecution. 

Q. JSTow, what is your next blank ? A. That is marked C. L. 

Marked Exhibit 7. 

Q. That is child labor ? A. Child labor, or violations of child 
labor are discovered; that is, employment under 14 or between 
14 and 16, without certificate. 

Q. That is in connection with the book in which you get the 
signature of the child? A. Yes; that is the office record of all 
children that are illegally employed. 

Q. And then you submit the book to the employer, and ask 
him for an explanation ? A. Exactly. 

Q. Which I suppose usually is that he did not know the chil- 
dren were under the age of 14 ? A. Sometimes it is ; sometimes 
he offers a reasonable explanation; those cards then come before 
the Chief Inspector, whose duty it is to determine whether or not 
the case is to be prosecuted. 



John Williams. 



45 



) ' 



The Witness: This (indicating) is still another card. 

Q. This is marked S. R. What does that mean ? A. Supple- 
mental report on children. 

Marked Exhibit 8. 

Q. As to children alleged to be over 14 and apparently under 
16, employed without authority? A. Yes. 

Q. That is where you have some reason to doubt the certi- 
ficates are correct, that the child's age is incorrectly stated? A. 
Precisely. 

Q. You simply give in this blank the names of the children, 
and evidence received? A. Yes. 

Q. Is that made by the ordinary inspector in the usual course 
of his work, or is that a special inspection? A. The record is 
turned in by the factory inspector in the regular course of his 
work, and then notice is issued requiring the employer to submit 
evidence of age; he has the alternative of submitting evidence 
of age or dismissing the child. 

Q. What is the next one? A. That is an old form; we are 
getting a new form for that card, changing its name from tenant 
factory. 

Marked Exhibit 9. 

Q. You are changing your card because of the amendment of 
the law? A. Exactly. 

Q. One of the statutes based upon the recommendation of the 
Commission? A. Yes. 

Q. This card is issued when? A. Whenever our inspectors 
report on these bad sanitary conditions, which can be remedied 
and should be remedied by summary action, stopping the work. 

Q. Well, this is issued on a report by the inspector? A. Yes. 

Q. On that report you make this order? A. Exactly. 

Q. That a label containing the word " unclean " be affixed to 
the article specified? A. Yes. 

Q. Now, that has to be reported to you before you do it? A. 
Oh, yes. 

Q. Why couldn't the inspector himself do this? A. Because 
the statute prescribes that such a label may not be attached ex- 
cept upon the express order of the Commissioner, which shall be 
a part of the public record. 



46 



Minutes of Public Heaeings. 



Q. That takes two or three days, does it not, after the report 
is made ? A. No. In the metropolitan district the chief clerk at 
the New York office is authorized to execute the order. 

Q. If the chief clerk could be authorized to execute it, why 
couldn't the factory inspector himself do it? You mean you 
would not want to trust him with that power ? A. No, I would 
not for administrative reasons. It is better as it is. 

Q. What is the next one ? A. That is for the same purpose, 
applicable, however, to a bakery. You see we have power to 
stop work in a bakery after the notice has been posted on the 
inside entrance door for forty-eight hours. 

Mr. Elkus: I will offer this in evidence, the bakery con- 
fectionery order card ; that will be marked Exhibit 10. 

Q. What else have you ? A. That is an office record card giv- 
ing tenant factory buildings only. 

Q. That is filled out in the office ? A. Filled out by the in- 
spector when he covers a tenant factory building. Our orders 
are necessarily against the owners of the building; they appear 
on that card, only, and do not appear on any of the other cards. • 

Marked Exhibit 11. 

Q. Now, is that all of the cards? A. That (indicating) is the 
fire escape diagram card. 

Q. That is filled out by the inspector also when he makes his 
general inspection ? A. He must fill it out. 

Mr. Elkus: I offer that in evidence, and ask to have it 
marked Exhibit 12 of this date. 

Q. Now, are there any more cards? A. I want to show you 
the registration card that we expect to use. This is the order 
that is attached to the inside of the entrance door of a bakery. 

Q. Until it is properly cleaned ? A. Yes. 

Q. That you give to the factory inspector with authority to 
execute it? A. Yes. 

Q. In other words, do you give a factory inspector power to 
close up a bakery — but you wouldn't give him power to label 
something as unclean? A. No, not exactly that; we give him 
power to post the notica 



John Williams. 



47 



v^ 



Q. No. "You are hereby ordered to immediately cease oper- 
ating this bakery," it says here. A. That is true, but read to 

the end. 

Q. " Until it is properly cleaned." A. In case of failure to 
comply with this order within forty-eight hours, action shall be 
taken against said bakery in accordance with section 114, with- 
out further notice." 

Mr. Elkus: I offer that in evidence, and ask to have it 
marked Exhibit No. 13 of this date. 

The Witness : He is required to make a return on that card 
(indicating) showing the precise date and the hour. 

Mr. Elkus : I offer that in evidence and ask to have it marked 
Exhibit No. 14 of this date. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. On this Exhibit 14, I assume that does not go out unless 
you know about it, or you are apprised of the fact that order is 
issued, before it is issued ? A. Not before it is issued, but we are 
apprised after it is issued, before we issue the order directing 
them to stop business. That simply orders them to clean; if they 
fail to comply with it, the inspector reports that fact, then the 
place is shut up ; that does not shut it up. 

Q. To cease operating until it is perfectly cleaned? A. Ex- 
actly. 

Q. Who determines whether it is properly cleaned? A. The 
inspector upon his return. 

Q. He really has the power then to close it up ? A. He has the 
power to close it up after we have executed an order to that effect, 
upon that brown card you have. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. That order says you must close your shop until it is cleaned. 
Now, the next blank you hand me is a record of work for a week 
for the inspector. He must make this report each week? A. 
Yes. 

Mr. Elkus : I offer this card in evidence and ask to have it 
marked Exhibit No. 15 of this date. 



48 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



The Witness: This (indicating) is the new registration blank. 

Mr. Elkus : Well, I will offer that in evidence, and ask to 
have it marked Exhibit 16 of this date. 

Q. Are you sending these out to every factory? A. We are 
just getting ready; it takes some time to get things from the 
printer, and we are now ready to start in. I shall appoint a 
clerk to start in the New York office at once, and supplies are 
being sent out. 

Q. Do you send a letter with this ? A. ;N"o. 

Q. Don't you call the attention of the manufacturer that he is 
required to fill out this blank by law ? A. What we intend to 
do is this: We intend that each of our inspectors shall from 
day to day carry a supply and leave a blank and an envelope 
with every manufacturer whom they visit. That seems to me a 
practical and simple and inexpensive way to get at it. 

Q. You have a list of all the factories of the State; why 
couldn't you mail one to each with a printed letter? A. That 
would be very simple, but it would cost $900 in postage and we 
have not got the money. 

Q. Well, that is another thing, but it would cost you more than 
that in the time of your inspectors? A. No, just to leave it 
when they are visiting the placa 

Q. But it would be a year before you got to the last factory? 
A. That might be true. 

Q. While sending them by mail, they will all get them at the 
same time, you would get probably 90 per cent, of the returns 
at once? A. I should be glad to consider that suggestion when 
October 1st comes, but not before, because I won't have money 
enough to carry us through. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. They have got to do it within six months ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, when an inspector reports that either after a regular 
or a special inspection there is a violation, does the same inspector 
go back to see if the violation has been complied with ? A. Our 
policy now is to have that course followed, as nearly as it may 
be practicable to do so. 






\ 



John Williams. 



49 



Q. And then the same inspector testifies in court as to the 
violation and continued violation of the law ? A. Ordinarily. 

Q. Wouldn't it be advisable to divide that work in two parts, 
a division of actual inspection and then a division of enforcement, 
using in the division of enforcement inspectors who have much 
more knowledge and experience? Let me go a little further and 
explain what I mean. You know, as a matter of fact that some 
inspectors make very poor witnesses in court? A. I know it 
very well. 

Q. They are unable to describe aptly and go to pieces on cross 
examination as to the violation of the law, and as to the work 
done and not done, and very often you lose cases, because while 
your inspector may be able enough to inspect, he is not able to 
tell about it. Now, would it not be advisable under those cir- 
cumstances, where you have a violation to have a special inspector 
or one or two of them, or as many as are required, and keep them 
solely on the work of being in court, and besides wouldn't that do 
away with an inspector being taken away from his work to go to 
court for these same men would be in court all the time or be 
inspecting for court work. Wouldn't that tend to greater effi- 
ciency in the work ? A. It might tend to greater efficiency, and 
would perhaps. On the other hand it would involve a very large 
increase in our force. 

Q. Why would it require an increase in the force? The men 
who are inspecting, are taken away from regular inspecting to be 
sent into court ? Now, if instead of that you had all of the court 
work done by one or two men it would give the others so much 
time for inspecting? A. On the other hand, we cannot assume 
to know, and cannot know beforehand whether or not the investi- 
gation and the compliance or non-compliance is apt to result in 
prosecution or not. I do not feel that it is necessary for us to 
adopt that system generally that we do in special matters. 

Q. Wouldn't it be better in all cases practically I mean, 
wouldn't you get better results by doing that ? A. I am not sure 
that we would. The opinions of inspectors differ as to the prac- 
ticability of certain things, as to the need of certain orders. One 
inspector may have a very clear and definite idea as to what 






50 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



should be done in certain situations, and another inspector may 
have an entirely different idea. 

Q. I know, but you get men of experience, you know; you 
would get your best men doing that sort of work, men who un- 
derstood the subject and who knew whether the law was violated, 
and who could testify to it. A. In other words, your idea is this, 
if I understand it, that it would be advisable in every case to 
refer the investigation of compliance of your orders to one set 
of inspectors? 

Q. Yes, trained men ? A. On the other hand, don't you realize 
that the inspectors investigating compliances would not raise the 
level of the work any higher than those making the original 
inspections ? 

Q. No, but they could tell whether the order has been complied 
with. A. I cannot quite agree. 

Q. Would it not also do away with any • likelihood of graft, 
when you have two inspectors instead of one on a violation of 
law? A. It might, and yet it might not; supposing some one 
should attempt to reach the second. 

Q. But he would have to reach two men ? A. Not necessarily, 
if the first man never makes an inspection to determine whether 
his order is complied with. 

Q. He might reach that place again and say I reported that 
violation there, and might have sense enough to follow it up? 
A. He might. 

Q. When a violation is discovered or reported on a special case 
or regular report, you send a notice to the owner? A. We do, 
sir. 

Q. Have you got a copy of your forms for that purpose. Let 
us have them all in order. Is this form you now show me mailed 
from JSTew York or Albany or from the subdistrict? A. That 
is a copy of a notice served upon the proper party, whether it be 
the occupant or the ownei* of the building. It comes now from 
the Metropolitan District, the notices are issued from the New 
York office. 

Q. Since the new law? A. Since the reorganization and the 
creation of our supervising district. 



i 



' 



John Williams. 



61 



Mr. Elkus: That I will oifer in evidence and ask to have it 
marked Exhibit No. 17 of this date. 

The Witness: That (indicating) is the office record of the 
order. 

Mr. Elkus : I offer that in evidence, and ask to have it marked 
Exhibit 18 of this date. 

Q. Now, if that notice is not complied with, what happens 
next ? A. If the report of non-compliance is made by whoever in- 
vestigates the order, the final notice is issued ordinarily, but not 
with reference to all orders. Certain orders that are imperative 
are followed up quickly and turned over to counsel for non- 
compliance. 

Q. Have you a form for this notice? A. No. 

Q. It is a letter ? A. Yes. We have a form, though. 

Q. How long does it usually take before this final notice is 
sent out after you receive the first notice of violation of law? 
A. As things are working out now, the notice goes out to the 
inspector, or rather to the manufacturer within three or four days 
after the inspection. In fact, I had a matter come to my atten- 
tion, from one of the up-State districts recently, where the in- 
spector made his inspection on the — well, I will use these days 
to illustrate — on the 7th. The record of inspection reached this 
office on the 8th. On the 9th the notice was written, and on the 
10th, three days say from the date of inspection, the manufac- 
turer received his notice, and that is true of a very large per- 
centage of the notices written in our New York office to-day, so 
that the notice reaches the parties in a very short time. 

Q. And after the final notice is sent then there is another in- 
spection by the same inspector to determine whether it is finally 
complied with ? A. Yes. 

Q. And he reports back whether it has or has not been complied 
with ? A. Exactly. 

Q. What do you do after that if it has not? A. Then it goes 
into counsel's hands. 

Q. Do you have a printed form you send counsel? A. No, 
sir. The report of the inspector is turned over to the counsel. 
Usually, in the majority of cases, he prepares papers for court 



52 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



proceedings, and then notifies the party interested against whom 
proceedings are contemplated that unless the orders of the de- 
partment are complied with, that the information will be sworn to. 
Q. That allows them a certain length of time? A. A short 
extension. 

Q. You are authorized now to have summons issued; have 
you taken advantage of that permission now? A. I am afraid 
that a hitch will arise over that law. I have submitted the ques- 
tion to the Attorney-General for his opinion, and he has not given 
his opinion yet. It appears that under the Inferior Courts Act, 
in New York, the magistrates are only authorized to issue sum- 
monses in that form for certain specified violations of the traffic 
law, and while Chief Magistrate McAdoo, without any question 
at all, took it for granted that we were right, and signed our 
copy of summonses ready to go to print, Chief Magistrate Kemp- 
ner in Brooklyn raised the question, and stated he was in serious 
doubt whether under that law summonses could be issued by any 
magistrate and then I presented the matter to the Attorney-Gen- 
eral, and am now awaiting his opinion. 

Q. Even without that law summonses have been issued bv 
magistrates for a great many years, have they not? A. Not be- 
fore information is laid. This is a case where we asked for 
summonses to serve ourselves before we laid information before 
the court. 

Q. So you cannot tell yet how that is going to work 1 A. We 
cannot tell you how it is going to work. If it does not work owt, 
I am going to come to the Commission to draft a law that will 
enable us to work the thing out and properly. 

Q. We will be glad to do that. Now, have you used the statute 
giving you the power to close up unclean factories which has 
been passed? A. Not except as w^e have applied to tenant 
factories. We are getting our sanitary card ready now. 

Q. You have used it as to tenant factories ? A. We have used 
it regularly; we have closed hundreds of them. 

Q. Already ? A. Already. Yes, ever since we had that power 
in 1907. 

Q. Have you issued instructions to inspectors as to what con- 
ditions must exist in order to close up unclean factories under 



John Williams. 



53 






this new law? A. I don't feel that it is necessary to issue any 
special instructions except to say the instructions heretofore issued 
shall apply to all factories. 

Q. Commissioner, what power have you now with reference to 
dangerous conditions on account of machinery and dangerous con- 
ditions in case of fire in factories ? A. You have reference now 
to the internal arrangements? 

Q. You have certain powers now of course with reference to 
the violation of law if the machinery is dangerous, and there are 
dangerous conditions in case of fire? Would you be in favor of 
having given to you summary power in those cases like you have 
in the unclean factory cases? A. You mean power to apply a 
label to the machine ? 

Q. You have it to apply to the machinery nowj how about 
conditions that are dangerous if there were a fire? A. We have 



none, no. 



Q. Would you be in favor of having summary powers ? A. To 
deal with dangerous conditions of that kind? 

Q. Yes. A. I think it would be advisable. 

Q. Similar to that in case of machinery, and similar to that in 
case of unclean factories ? A. Yes, similar in principle at least ; 
it might be necessary to work the thing out; I have not thought 
it up fully. 

Q. Will you think of the matter and make some suggestion 
to the Commission about it? A. Yes. 

Q. With reference to sentences where you prosecuted for 
violation of the Labor Law, I think you complained that sen- 
tences were often suspended? A. We have not had in the very 
recent past, I am glad to say, as much occasion to complain, but we 
have had in the past occasion to complain regarding that particular 
feature of our experience in New York, and that is in Greater 
New York, but things are changing there. The Department is 
being supported there much better now than formerly, and I am 
perfectly willing to give credit to the Commission. 

Q. This Commission? A. Yes, to this Commission for it; 
by indirection or by direct means affecting the situation so as to 
give us better results. The Court of Special Sessions is disposed 
to-day to support our work very much more than it seemed to be 



54 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



disposed to do in the past. Still we do encounter some difficulty 
m some sections of the State. I feel that I ought not to criticise 
the courts as they behave now. 

Q. Would you be in favor of a separate court to try violations 
of the Labor Law, building code, and so forth, in New York 
City instead of the Court of Special Sessions ? A. Not unless 
the court reverses its practice and goes back to the old order of 
things. If they give us results we now get I am satisfied. 

Q. You do not think it would be advisable to have a separate 
court with jurisdiction over those subjects ? A. I do not think it 
is necessary. 

Q. How do you feel as to whether or not the Children's Court 
should be given sole jurisdiction over all cases affecting the un- 
lawful employment of children ? A. My predecessor in office felt 
rather strongly on that. Personally I don't know that I have any 
very definite opinion except upon this one point, that it might 
be well in order to protect the children who are brought in as 
witnesses from contamination with undesirable men and women, 
and prevent them from listening to some things, it might perhaps 
be advisable, otherwise I don't think there is any occasion for a 
change.. 

Q. Except this, with the exception of the cases involving viola- 
tion of the Labor Law, all cases against children are in the Chil- 
dren's Court ? A. Yes, against children, but these cases are not 
against children, they are against manufacturers, and the chil- 
dren are brought in only as witnesses to prove our case. 

Q. Your opinion is then that they had better stay where they 
are ? A. Unless there is sufficient grounds for a change, because 
of the supposed contamination of the child, I think the situation 
is satisfactory. 

Q. Would it be of any benefit from this standpoint, that the 
magistrate in the Children's Court might investigate the child 
himself, and conditions surrounding the employment? He has 
such wide discretionary powers about children that it might be 
of benefit in that way ? A. I don't know how that really would 
affect the employment of children in factories. They have the 
right to be employed, or they haven't ; that is the long and short 
of the story, so far as the Labor Law is concerned. 



John Williams. 



55 



Q. Commissioner Williams, when you were talking about these 
cards of inspection, I think you said an inspection was made once 
a year regularly of every factory in the State; am I right about 
that? A. We aim to cover every factory in the State, and I 
think we do substantially. 

Q. During the last five years how many inspections have been 
made in each year; have you got those statistics for me? A. I 
have not got them at hand ; we can get them very readily. 

Q. If you will get them and have them for me to-morrow 
morning, I will appreciate it. How many factories have you 
inspected more than once in a year. A. I can't give you the 
information offhand. 

Q. Will you get that for me? A. Yes. 

Q. Are factories visited in regular order, in any regular order 
by any system or are they visited haphazard ? A. The inspectors 
in the larger cities are required to lay out their work so as to 
take the factories substantially in their order as they come to 
them. Take in New York City they are supposed to cover their 
territory block by block, unless there be some special reason such 
as an investigation of a complaint or compliance, they are sup- 
posed to work according to that method. 

Q. Well, now, an inspector in New York City has about how 
large a factory- district? A. Well, in that territory they vary 
considerably, but we have endeavored to arrange the districts so 
as to approximate a given number of inspections in the territory. 

Q. Is there any system according to kind of business by which 
factories are inspected ? A. No. 

Q. Some businesses, some factories ought to be inspected more 
than others, because of the nature of the business in which they 
are engaged? A. Yes. 

Q. Wouldn't it be possible to divide factories into classes or 
grades, some of which require inspection three or four times a 
year, and others it might not be necessary to inspect oftener than 
once every three years ? A. It would be a very ideal plan, but not 
a very easy one to follow, because these factories are scattered in all 
directions, and it would necessitate considerable travel back and 
forth on the part of the inspector, considerable waste of time in 
one sense. 



1 



56 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. Well, take the big cities for example; now, there are inaiiu- 
f aeturing establishments which need little or no inspection ; there 
are others that ought to be inspected once a month ? A. Yes. 

Q. Why wouldn't it be possible to divide factories into two 
classes and inspect some once a month — some ought to be in- 
spected once a month, others once in six months; still others 
every three months; others every year, and some once in two 
years ? A. It would be well, but would involve considerable work 
and classification, and it would probably necessitate dividing the 
force into different groups, one group to take one kind of factory, 
and the other to take another. Tluit is precisely what I have 
planned, and expect to do with relation to bakeries. We expect 
to have a special bakery squad about October 1st that will devote 
itself entirely to the construction of bakeries. 

Q. You would not have to divide them into industries. Y^ou 
can simply say to the inspector, I want you to visit sudi and such 
a bakery once a month and some other kind of a business once 
in two months in your district, and some otlier business once every 
six months ? A. If we had a sutHcient number of inspectors we 
could do that. 

Q. You have now seventy odd inspectors and you still have 
authority to increase it to 00 ? A. We have only forty in Greater 
'New York. 

Q. And you have authority to increase that ? A. Y^es. 

Q. And you mean you need more inspectors still ? A. To do 
what you suggest, yes. As a matter of fact, the number of 
factories that would require more than one inspection a year is 
not so very large. 

Q. I use the word inspection, and perhaps I ought to say visits ? 
A. Yes, I understand you, observation. 

Q. For instance, you have ai factory where toilets are unclean 
habitually. All a man would have to do would be to walk in 
there once a month, and look at the toilets, and then ci[\\ the 
proprietor, and say, '' This condition is as bad as it was when 
I was here last," that would bo remedied after he found out he 
was going to come in there every two weeks until it was done. 
A. It might be necessary to take him to court however. 

Q. You could take him to court every two weeks to see it was 
done, and he would get tired of ^oing to court ? A. I appreciate 



John Williams. 



57 



that fully ; on the other hand we must bear in mind in Greater 
New York that there are not less than thirty-one or two thousand 
places to be inspected. 

Q. There are certain trades considered dangerous for the em- 
ployees ? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you make any more inspections of those places than you 
do of any others? A. We haven't up to the present classified 
them on that basis. 

Q. Do you expect to ? A. We hope to after we have the benefit 
of the investigations by the experts of the Commission. I think 
Dr. Price's work will enable us to do considerable along that line. 

Q. Y^ou mean the work that Dr. Price is doing for the Commis- 
sion? A. Yes. 

Q. Have you removed any inspectors during the past five years 
for incompetency? A. I have not removed any. 

Q. Have you suspended any ? A. I have. 

Q. How many? A. I can't give you offhand the record, but 
it can be easily ascertained. 

Q. Will you have that for me to-morrow ? A. Yes. 

Q. Have you fined any ? A. Well, the case that you mentioned 
a little while ago was equivalent to a fine, and I have fined others. 
At least one other that I have in mind was fined ten days' pay; 
I have had some of them resign. 

Q. Have you an educational branch of your department or 
division, in which you endeavor to educate the manufacturers by 
sending out pamphlets or descriptions of safety devices ? A. No, 
not yet, but as I said earlier this afternoon, our mechanical 
engineer is working on that subject. 

Q. I thought that was only for your inspectors ? A. We intend 
to publish pamphlets for our inspectors' information and for dis- 
tribution among manufacturers also. 

Q. How about the medical inspector issuing a pamphlet or 
instructions to manufacturers about keeping their employees 
healthy ? A. Such recommendations as he made appeared in his 
annual report. 

Q. Now, what changes do you suggest should be made in your 
department to obtain greater efficiency and greater benefit to the 
employee and the employer ? A. I don't know that I am prepared 
to say at length anything upon that subject. 



58 



Minutes of Public HrAiaNGS. 



f I 



■; 






|) < 



1 



Q. Tell me what you think, and then I will ask you some 
specific questions as to whether you approve certain suggestions 
I outlined there for you, the matters I thought you would take 
up and consider ? A. Yes, I may take these just as they are ? 

Q. Certainly. A. I don't believe that a deputy commissioner 

is necessary for our New York office. We have organized a 

bureau of factory inspection now upon what seems to be a very 

satisfactory basis. The four supervising inspectors have the 

metropolitan district — have their office in our general sub-office 

there, and the chief inspector spends part of his time in New 

York each week, and up here, and as occasion might warrant or 

need arises visits the sub-offices in the other sections of the State. 

Q. New York City or Greater New York has probably more 

manufacturers than probably the whole rest of the State together ? 

A. Yes, sir, considerably more. 

Q. Now, why shouldn't they have an officer there, an officer 
with full authority over all the men, an officer with full authority 
to take charge of all the manufacturing establishments in that 
part of the State? A. Well, I don't think it is necessarv to 
multiply the number of responsible heads in the bureau to any 
greater extent than now. 

Q. What I mean is this, a certain amount of work is done in 
Albany for New York City? A. No. 

Q. None at all ? A. Substantially none at all. 
Q. You have just told me about some deputy who spent part 
of hisf time in New York, and part of his time in Albany ? A. 
The chief inspector spends part of his time in New York and 
part in Albany, but he does not do much New York work in 
Albany. 

Q. Why could you not run the New York office as a separate 
office altogether? Wouldn't it produce better results? A. I 
hardly think so, Mr. Elkus. I think it would be unwise to divide 
the responsibility for conditions in the State. 

Q. You would be responsible? A. I understand that, but I 
don't think it would be advisable to have a chief inspector in 
New York, and a chief inspector for the rest of the State. 

Q. Why not? Wouldn't he be more familiar with the work, 
wouldn't he know more that was going on ; wouldn't he have better 



John Williams. 



59 



control of all the inspectors under him? A. He is in control 



now. 



Q. But he has to spend two or three days in Albany, and he has 
the supervision of the rest of the State at the same time and is 
responsible for that. In other words, your chief inspector and 
deputy has practically the same responsibility that you have now. 
Wouldn't you get better results if Mr. Whalen, for instance, was 
located entirely in New York, or somebody else than Mr. Whalen 
entirely up-State? A. I hardty think so. 

Q. Why not ? A. Well, I think that the control Mr. Whalen 
exercises over the bureau now in Greater New York is sufficient. 

Q. Yes, but there are certain days in the week when he isn't 
there ; when he is not in touch with the work ? A. Yes. 

Q. And when he goes back he has to find out what has been 
done in his absence? A. Well, Mr. Whalen is here, and might 
answer for himself, whether he has found that militates against 
the efficiency of his bureau or not. I have not thought of it in 
that way; I have not thought that it has, and I do not think so 
now. 

Q. In the case of the Public Service Commission, they have 
made two commissions, one for New York City and one for the 
rest of the State, dividing the State in substantially the same 
way. Couldn't something along the same lines be adopted by 
having a deputy with full power ? A. I don't think so ; I am not 
willing to admit that any better results could be obtained by 
adding another chief inspector. I must confess I don't see the 
need of another chief inspector. 

Q. A man of the standing of Professor Seager has made that 
recommendation to the Commission. He says he thinks there 
should be a special deputy commissioner in New York with full 
authority under the Commissioner, and that one of the causes of 
the inefficiency of the department, if I may use that harsh term, 
without meaning it in any invidious sense, is because of the 
failure to have a man there at all times who is in absolute con- 
trol? A. So far as I am personally concerned, I would not and 
do not object. 

Q. The question is whether it is going to tend to improvement ? 
A. I adhere to my view that I do not believe it is. necessary to 



60 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



John Williams. 



61 



add that burden to the amouut now borne by the State for the 
support of the department. 

Q. Don't you think a man ought to be permanently assigned 
to Greater New York ? A. :N"ow, Mr. Elkus, you should bear in 
mind we have four supervising inspectors. 

Q. They are not in charge ? A. They are in charge of the work 
in their districts, and they have certain powers, certain general 
powers delegated to them. The next question is do we need a 
chief inspector of technical experience? It all depends on what 
is meant by technical experience. 

Q. As an engineer? A. I don't think so; I think that the 
work of the chief inspector is to have general charge of the ad- 
ministrative work of the bureau. We have a mechanical engineer 
who is supposed to be and is the right hand man of the chief 
inspector. 

Q. Well, now, the next subject, four and five, rate of increase 
for inspectors, and advances we have alreadv discussed. 

Q. Now, No. 6, chief medical inspector ; you have a chief in- 
spector and sole medical inspector? A. He is it. 

Q. Are you of the opinion that he should have any assistants ? 
A. 1 think it would be an excellent idea if w^e could have a corps 
of medical inspectors ; whether you would call it a corps of medi- 
cal inspectors or physicians; I think it would be an excellent 
idea, and let that corps constitute a sanitary board. 

Q. How many would you need to establish such a medical in- 
spection or medical department to do the work properly? A. 
Well, such a corps of medical inspectors, of course, would be ex- 
pected to do a certain amount of routine work and then there 
would be a research work, the work that Dr. Price is starting, 
continuing it and extending it. 

Q. How many doctors do you think you would have to have? 
A. If we were going to establish a corps of medical inspectors, I 
think we shouldn't try to get along without five. 

Q. What salaries would you want to pay them ? A. We would 
have to pay them larger salaries than we are now paying our 
medical inspector. 

Q. I think that is true; you only pay him $2,400 a year? A. 
Yes, that is all. In order to get men of the medical profession 
of high standing, we have to pay good salaries. 



Q. How much do you have to pay your engineer? A. $3,500. 
Q. You ought to pay a doctor about as much? A. Not less, 

that is my idea. 

Q. Do you think the work they would do, such a medical de- 
partment, would be of value ? A. I certainly do. 

Q. To whom? For the laboring man and women? A. To 
them particularly, and to society in general. 

Q. And why ; I want to get your reasons in full. A. Because 
of the questions that arise in connection with labor legislation and 
the general administration of the law, that the layman, the average 
layman, or the non-professional man is not qualified to pass judg- 
ment upon. 

Q. Would it improve labor conditions if you had such a depart- 
ment ? A. I am sure it would, if in addition to that, provision 
is made whereby the Commissioner of Labor can formulate and 
establish and enforce rules to carry out the recommendations of 
the medical staff. Without such a power as that it would be a 
useless waste of money. 

Q. In other words, whatever they recommend you should have 
the power to carry out ? A. Exactly. 

Q.'Who would prepare such rules and regulations, the Com- 
missioner of labor? A. No, the board would recommend, the 
Commissioner of Labor would approve and promulgate or dis- 
approve, as the case may be, in which latter event he would not 
promulgate. 

Q. Would you favor having an advisory board of volunteer 
physicians serving without pay who would make these rules and 
regulations ? A. No, not to make them. 

Q. Or to pass upon them ? A. To act in an advisory capacity, 
ves. I would not be in favor of any unofficial board with author- 
ity to initiate anything. 

Q. Would such an advisory board necessarily be composed of 
physicians only? A. Not necessarily; I think it would be ad- 
visable to have sanitary engineers in addition to medical men. 

Q. What other advisory board would you have or would you 
have one general advisory board for your department ? A. I don't 
think that a board of medical men and sanitary engineers would be 



62 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



John Wilt^iams. 



63 



qualified to pass upon questions relating to safety, mechanical 
safety and structural safety. 

Q. Would you have a general board to pass upon the mechan- 
ical and structural safety, sanitation and medical matters; they 
could divide themselves into different bodies, but the whole body 
to pass upon these questions ? A. No, separate. I should prefer 
separate bodies. 

Q. How many would you favor? A. I think that two would 
be sufficient, one in factory hygiene and sanitation and the other 
on safety. 

Q. Are yoa familiar with the advisory board that exists in 
Massachusetts ? A. You mean the board of boiler rules ? 

Q. Yes. A. I am familiar with its existence, and I have read 
the law creating the board. 

Q. Would you favor having a board similar to that ? A. With 
authority to initiate and promulgate rules ? A. No ; I don't think 
it would be advisable. I am inclined to think, especially with 
regard to safety, that the powers of such a board should be lim- 
ited to take up only such questions as might be referred to it by 
the Commissioner of Labor, upon the recommendations of the 
chief inspector, or upon his own motion. I think Ir would be 
ill advised to give any board absolute power to come in and make 
rules to be enforced by another official. 

Q. The reason why I feel rather strongly on this point of giving 
such a board power to initiate is this: That such a board might 
go out without consulting the Commissioner of Labor, and might 
take up subjects that he did not deem advisable. 

Q. What harm could be done; they could not do anything but 
discuss them and present them to you and you would disapprove 
of them ? A. That would cause some unpleasantness. 

Q. Well, it might cause a great deal of benefit, discussion 
usually brings about some benefit, even if you don't agree ? A. But 
don't you think, Mr. Elkus, that the Commissioner of Labor and 
his chief inspector would have in mind the needs of the service 
rather more fully than such a board ? 

Q. I don't want to answer your question directly, but the point 
is this : You are the power that not only makes the law, but en- 
forces the law. You have wide discretionary power. Hero is a 



body made up of labor, organized labor, the manufacturer, the 
employer and medical men and perhaps an engineer besides. 
Why shouldn't such a board be created, with power to make sug- 
gestions and recommendations for rules and regulations. If you 
disapprove them they won't become enacted. You have the power 
to initiate and suggest ; this would be a great improvement ; what 
is the harm in that and why wouldn't it be productive of a great 
deal of good ? A. Do I understand you now to refer to one gen- 
eral board covering sanitation, hygiene and safety ? 
Q. Everything? A. Not two separate boards? 
Q. No ; have one general board with power to do anything, or 
if you prefer, suppose you make the rules and regulations, and 
then submit them to this board, and ask them for criticism ? A. 
I should very much prefer it that way, because if you try the 
other plan my fear is that there would be an attempt to take up 
80 many subjects that it would complicate the situation, and create 
constant friction and dissatisfaction. 

Q. What you would be in favor of would be having a board to 
which you could send your proposed rules and regulations or 
changes for their criticism? A. Either that, or the Com- 
missioner of Labor should have power to refer a given subject 
to the board with the request that they prepare a proposed regu- 
lation; that is what I want. 

Q. How many would you have on that board; what kind of 
men would they be, and would you be in favor of their being 
paid salaries ? A. Well, if your idea is to constitute one general 
board, I think it would be well to have as many interests that 
are concerned in this subject represented as are possible. You 
should have the manufacturer and the workingman and the medi- 
cal profession, the sanitary engineer, the mechanical engineer 
should be represented; in other words, it should be so broad as 
to cover substantially all of the subject. 

Q. Five men would be a good working board, would it not? 
A. I should think so, and I should be in favor of paying them 
when their service was rendered. 

Q. So much per day? A. Per diem and expenses. 
Q. You think you would be able to get men of high character 
and standing to serve on such a board, don't you ? A. I do, in- 
deed. 



64 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



John Williams. 



65 



Q. And you would recommend legislation to that effect ? A. I 
should be very glad to support legislation to that effect, yet. 

Q. Have you a division of industrial hygiene in your depart- 
ment now? A. I have not. 

Q. Would you favor such a division 'i A. My idea is this : If 
we are going to have a corps of medical inspectors, that that corps 
should be the division of industrial hygiene. I am going to take 
the privilege of asking Dr. Price if he does not agree with me. 

Dr. Pkice: Industrial hygiene would include also safety and 
engineering. 

The Witness: Do you understand the term hygiene includes 
mechanical safety? I don't. 

Dr. Price : Mechanical safety ; anything that helps safety. 

The Witness: Industrial hygiene, as I understand it, is con- 
cerned mostly with conditions relating to health. 

Q. Do you think the medical department, if it is established, 
could also take care of industrial hygiene? A. If in addition to 
questions relating to sanitation and health matters concerning 
mechanical safety and structural safety were included, it might be 
advisable to include in that division a mechanical engineer. 

Q. How about a ventilating engineer ? A. A ventilating engi- 
neer, that is quite necessary. 

Q. Kow, Commissioner Williams, there has been a great deal of 
testimony before the Commission, and much discussion about the 
duplication of inspection of factories by State and city depart- 
ments, and it has been shown that there is more or less lack of 
co-operation between these different departments of the city and 
State, resulting in work not being done, in the responsibility for 
failure to obey the law being shifted from one department to 
another, inspections being duplicated and triplicated and quad- 
rupled. Now, I want to ask you if you have given this matter 
any thought? A. Some. 

Q. We would like to know what you have to suggest by which 
first this duplication of inspection can be minimized, if it cannot 
be avoided altogether, by which departments of the State and city 



can work together in harmony, and with the end that much better 
results can be obtained than are obtained now. I wish you would 
give us your views as fully and accurately and carefully as you 
can because I know you have given it considerable thought ? A. 
This question has arisen, of course, by reason of the fact that in 
Greater New York particularly, certain duties are laid upon dif- 
ferent city bureaus that are also imposed upon us as a State 
Department. The supposition is, as I understand it, that the 
Department of Health inspects factories for certain purposes, 
and that this department duplicates the work. That might be 
true in theory, and I assume that in certain instances it has been 
true in fact, but our experience has been that the Department of 
Health refers complaints to this department, and we do the in- 
spection. It is very seldom that we have resorted to that practice 
ourselves. We do inspect and we do call to the attention of other 
bureaus conditions that are directly under their jurisdiction. I 
must confess that I have not been able to work out in my o^vn 
mind any plan whereby this kind of duplication can be eliminated. 
This department is created to enforce the provisions of the Labor 
Law. It happens that some provisions of the Labor Law are 
similar to provisions contained in certain provisions of the char- 
ter — charters of cities and yet there is considerable difference in 
the work performed by these various branches of government. I 
have not said very much about any lack of co-operation between 
this department and local departments of the State. I have not 
heard anything about it until the trip of the Factory Investigat- 
ing Commission through the cities of the State last fall, and since 
then I have heard nothing concerning it. 

Q. You mean by that that there has been no co-operation? 
A. So far as we are concerned, we try to perform our duty re- 
gardless of whether the city department does or not. 

Q. Now, Commissioner, let me ask you right here, do you 
think it would be advisable to take away from the city and city 
authorities a great many of the powers they now exercise, or do 
not exercise, but have the power to exercise, and transfer them 
to the Labor Department or vice versa; and let me add to that, 
you spoke about our trip through the State last fall. That demon- 
strated, did it not, that in many of the cities of the State, without 
Vol. in — 3 



66 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



John Williams. 



67 



naming tliem, the city officials outside of New York city did 
practically nothing? A. I think that is true. 

Q. Wouldn't it be perhaps advisable to take all of their powers, 
and give them to the State Labor Department, and have something 
done? A. I am sure I do not want the department burdened 
with tasks that do not properly belong to it. I do not think that 
this department should be burdened with work that does not 
properly fall into the province of the Labor Law. 

Q. Suppose plans are filed for a factory ; in many of the cities 
of the State that is a purely perfunctory thing; wouldn't it be 
much more advisable to require them to be filed in the State 
Labor Department, then you would know something about theee 
factories, and know whether they complied with the law ? A. In 
connection with that suggestion the facts should be borne in 
mind that it would entail a very considerable enlargement of the 

department. 

Q. Do you not believe that the department must be enlarged ? 

A. Yes, it is bound to come. 

Q. And isn't it a fact that labor departments, not only in this 
State but all over the country, are being enlarged and their powers 
increased? A. Yes. 

Q. And this is the greatest manufacturing State in the Union, 
and therefore the Labor Department must be still more increased ? 

JO.* JL 66* 

Q. Now, what can be done ; what do you suggest being done as 
to the performance by the cities of the State and its officials of 
the powers conferred upon them by law, which apparently they 
do not care anything about, with reference to factories? A. Do 
you have reference now to the inspection of factories for sani- 
tation ? 

Q. Yes ; take that, for instance ? A. I must confess my ignor- 
ance of the provisions of the charter. 

Q. The same as the health department in New York city 
inspects factories from time to time as to sanitary conditions? 
A. That is they have power to do so ? 

Q. Well, they do it ? A. But are they obligated by the charter 

to regularly inspect? 



By the Chairman : 

Q. I suppose they are in regard to health ? A. That means 
they only inspect on complaints; you will find that is the case in 
New York, and they frequently refer their complaints to our 
department. The way conditions are now I do not think they 
inspect factories at all. 

Mr. Elkus : Only you say when they have a complaint ? 

The Witness: I do not understand they are obliged to do so 
under the charter. 

Mr. Elkus : They have the power. 

The Witness: They have authority if they wish to exercise 
it, but they are not obliged to. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Wouldn't they have to exercise it in order to preserve the 
health of the city itself, which includes all of its citizens, those 
working in factories as well as others; in order to preserve their 
health, would they have to make regular inspections? 

Mr. Elkus : I think they are obliged under the charter to do 
it, but they do not do it regularly because they have not got suffi- 
cient inspectors. The charters of the cities of the second claas 
confer the same power. The Commissioner of Public Safety of 
those cities has the power and the Health Commissioner under 
him is supposed to do it, but our investigation showed that they 
did not know anything about either their power or duties, and as 
you only inspect factories once a year, the result was the sani- 
tary conditions are left between those times just as they please, 
unless somebody makes a complaint. Now, the question is what 
is the remedy? A. Either they should be compelled to make 
regular inspections or the force of this department should be so 
increased as to enable us to make frequent inspections. 

Q. Do you think it ought to be done; the next question is do 
you think it ought to be done ? A. I don't think the State should 
be called upon to do the work that the municipality should do. 

Q. Well, they do not do it and won't do it except perhaps in 
New York city. 



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68 



Minutes op Public Hearings. 



The Chairman: I remember when we were up at Syracuse 
we had the Commissioner of Safety; he understood that he had 
no power to enter factories; if you will remember, he thought 
the Labor Department had all of the power, even with reference 
to sanitation. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Now, the question is what is the remedy? Certainly you 
agree those conditions should not go on ? A. Decidedly. 

Q. Now, what is the remedy ? A. Only one of two things to 
be done, either the local authority should be compelled to do the 
work, or the Department of Labor should be given an adequate 
force to perform this duty. 

Q. It is necessary to be done ? A.I think so. 

Q. You haven't any doubt about it, have you? A. I know it; 
it is necessary. 

Mr. Elkus : Mr. Chairman, shall we stop now ? 

The Chairman : Yes, what time shall we meet to-morrow ? 

Mr. Elkus: Ten o'clock 

The Chairman : The committee will have an executive session 
at the Ten Eyck Hotel, promptly at eight o'clock to-night at 
Eoom 801. 

(Recess until eight p. m.) 



Evening Session. 
Ten Eyck Hotel, Albany, N. Y. 

May 27, 1912, 8 p. m. 
The Committee met pursuant to adjournment. 
Present: 

Same as before, including the following additions : 

Daniel W. O'Connor, Recording Secretary of Ironmolders' 

Union No. 8, Albam^y, N, Y. 
John W. Kirwin, Recording Secretary, Local No, 120, 

Schenectady, N. Y. 



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INTENTIONAL SECOND EXPOSURE 



68 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



The Chairman: I remember when we were up at Syracuse 
we had the Commissioner of Safety; he understood that he had 
no power to enter factories; if you will remember, he thought 
the Labor Department had all of the power, even with reference 
to sanitation. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Now, the question is what is the remedy? Certainly you 
agree those conditions should not go on ? A. Decidedly. 

Q. Now, what is the remedy ? A. Only one of two things to 
be done, either the local authority should be compelled to do the 
work, or the Department of Labor should be given an adequate 
force to perform this duty. 

Q. It is necessary to be done ? A.I think so. 

Q. You haven't any doubt about it, have you? A. I know it; 
it is necessary. 

Mr. Elkus : Mr. Chairman, shall we stop now ? 

The Chairman : Yes, what time shall we meet to-morrow ? 

Mr. Elkus: Ten o'clock 

The Chairman : The committee will have an executive session 
at the Ten Eyck Hotel, promptly at eight o'clock to-night at 
Boom 801. 

(Recess until eight p. m.) 



Evening Session. 
Ten Eyck Hotel, Albany, N. Y. 

May 27, 1912, 8 p. m. 
The Committee met pursuant to adjournment. 
Present: 

Same as before, including the following additions : 

Daniel W. O'Connor, Recording Secretary of Ironmolders' 

Union No, 8, Albany, N, Y, 
John W. Kirwin, Recording Secretary, Local No, 120, 

Schenectady, N. Y, 



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Daniel W. O'Connok. 



69 















' 






Matthew McGowan, Business Agent, Central New York 

Holders' Union, Syracuse, N. Y, 
Patrick H. Caey, Trustee Ironmolders' Union No. 108, Troy, 

N. Y. 
John K. O'Leary, Third Vice-President of the International 

Holders' Union, Worcester, Hass. 
Thomas D. Fitzgerald, Representing the State Federation of 

Labor. 

Executive Session. 

Daniel W. O'Connor, called as a witness, being duly sworn, 
testified as follows: 

Now, tlie reason for the defeat of our bill — I have obtained 
copies of a circular which was sent out by the IN'ational Founders' 
Association; that is the union of the manufacturers. 

(Reading.) To the members of the National Founders' Asso- 
ciation, State of New York, Gentlemen: New York Assembly 
Bill No. 304. Enclosed please find copy of a bill to amend the 
Labor Law in relation to foundries. The bill is now before the 
Committee on Labor and Industry and is being strongly backed 
by the Ironmolders' Union, who were having a similar bill intro- 
duced in other States. 

A number of the members of the association in New York State 
who have communicated with us on the subject feel that 
the bill should be opposed on the general ground that it is estab- 
lishing a precedent in the matter of making the foundry a subject 
of special attack, and is in the nature of class legislation. * * * 

It gives the names of the members of the committee. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Who signed that ? A. This signed by McClintock, the com- 
missioner of the National Foundries Association; he is located 
now in Chicago, formerly in Detroit. 

Q. Are there any other officers of that association in New York 
State ? A. Yes, they have an office in New York city. 

Q. What is the name of the man in charge in New York city ? 
A. I have not got the letter head that gives the name. 

Q. What I would like to get, Mr. O'Connor, is the names of the 



70 



t < 



Minutes of Public Heaeings. 



men, the principal men who were opposed to this bill, whom we 
can reach by subpoena. We can then ask these men why they are 
opposed to this bill, what they find fault with about it ? A. Here 
are the officers of the National Foundries Association; a Minnesota 
man is president. 

Q. Who is president ? A. A Minnesota man, O. P. Briggs, of 
Minneapolis; vice-president is in Philadelphia; McClintock is 
commissioner, chief executive officer of the association. 

Q. Will you give your full name ? A. Daniel W. O'Connor. 

Q. You are located where ? A. I belong in Albany, here. We 
formed a temporary association last year for the purpose of getting 
legislation for the molders of the State. At a meeting held in 
Albany, I was elected chairman of it. I am recording secretary 
for the last sixteen years of Ironmolders' Union 'No. 8. There are 
two unions here. 

Q. Now, Mr. O'Connor, go ahead. A. As I was stating these 
officers, the officers of the National Foundries Association, that is 
the Founders' Union. 

By Commissioner Gompers : 

Q. Employers ? A. Employers' union ; they have a strong one. 
This review is published monthly by them and one of the strongest 
arguments we have — 

By Mr. Elkus ; 

Q. Give us the name of the president and so on, the officers ? 
A. President, O. P. Briggs, Minneapolis, Minnesota; vice-presi- 
dent, J. H. Schwacke of William Sellers & Company, Inc., Phil- 
adelphia ; the executive officer is A. E. McClintock, commissioner, 
Chicago, Illinois. 

By Commissioner Dreier: 

Q. What does that mean ? A. Sort of an executive agent of that 
association ; has full charge of all matters connected with it. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Business agent of the Employers' Union ? A. That is the 
idea. The secretary is F. W. Hutchings of Detroit ; the treasurer 
is the People's Savings Bank of Detroit. The main office has been 
changed. 



Daniel W. O'Connor. 



71 



Q. They haven't got a single New York man? A. Yes, they 
have an office in New York city, room 1708, 141 Broadway. 

Q. Who is in charge there ? A. It does not give the name. 

Q. Does anybody here know ? A. Mr. Taylor, I do not recall 
his first name, but we will furnish you all of that. 

Q. What official is he ? A. He is assistant commissioner. 

Q. Who is the man who put up the fight here ? A. McClintock. 

Q. Is he here in Albany ? A. He was here in opposition to the 
bill during the session up there; two of the members of his asso- 
ciation said they controlled over 80 per cent, of the foundrymen 
of the country. 

Q. Now, Mr. O'Connor, go on. Have you finished reading that 
circular that was sent out in opposition to the bill? A. Yes, I 
finished reading it. Now, one of our strongest arguments that we 
have is found in this copy of the Review. It is the December issue. 
There was a convention of the National Foundrymen's Associa- 
tion, the national convention held in New York last fall, and 
before that convention Mr. McClintock made an address and he 
strongly advocated all, in fact everything that we are looking for. 
His object, though, was purely a selfish one, as he said. He wanted 
to make conditions so good that members would not join the 
Molders' Union ; make them so good in the nonunion shop that it 
would keep them out of the Molders' Union; he frankly con- 
fessed it. 

By Commissioner Phillips: 

Q. I suppose if he made them good enough you would not 
worry about it ? A. We would not need them. Would vou like 
to hear what he has to say with regard to it? 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Can't you leave us this book? A. I had to send out to 
Detroit to get the second copy of it ; I want to use it. 
Q. If it is not very long, go right ahead and read it. 

Commissioner Jackson : It is a lengthy pamphlet. 

Mr. Elkus: I think we can get a copy of it; let me see the 
outside of it. (Beading) " The Review, December, 1911, the 
National Founders' Association of Detroit, National Metal Trades 



72 



Minutes of Tuulic Hearings. 



Association of Cleveland, December, 1911." It is the record of 
the proceedings of the fifteenth annual convention of the National 
Foundries Association. 

By Commissioner Gompees: 

Q. Will jou call attention to the number of the page where 
the article appears ? A. Page 32. Now, when you see those cir- 
culars, you can see that while we were openly making a fight, they 
were working under ground ; working successfully, too. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. May I interrupt you a moment ? You understand that Mr. 
Smith got your bill out of the committee, and made a great fight 
for it ? A. I am weU acquainted with all of those facts. I know 
you got it through the Senate with celerity; you made a great 
fight for it on the floor of the Assembly. I know it was a great 
fight to get it out of the Assembly rules committee. I have got 
here the names of everybody that voted for it and voted against 
it, and those that were absent. 

Q. What was the vote, do you remember ? A. Yes ; we lacked 
22; 54 in favor, 46 against. We lacked 22 votes requiring a 
constitutional majority of 76. 

By Commissioner Phillips: 

Q. There is one argument made against it among the country 
members, and that was that in the country districts there was 
difficulty for them to comply with the water provisions, in refer- 
ence to getting water and so forth. 

Now, you may know more about your conditions in the country 
than we do, and if you can give us any information on that we 
will appreciate it ? A. The present Labor Law provides that every 
factory, and a foundry is a factory, that every factory shall have 
a washroom with proper water facilities. Our bill exempted all 
foundries having five or less molders. We made it easy for 
the country shops ; we let them out on the washroom part of it ; 
it was better for them. 

By Commissioner Gompees: 

Q. Will you briefly state to the Commission what you aim to 
accomplish by this bill ? 



Daniel W. O'Connor. 



73 



\t 



Mr. Elkus : Would you mind, Mr. Gompers, if I asked him 
a question because we have the debate here which took place in 
the Assembly ? 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. As I remember the greatest opposition was made to this pro- 
vision of the law: In every factory employing five or more 
molders there shall be provided or maintained for the use of 
employees therein suitable and convenient washrooms adequately 
equipped with proper hot and cold water service; such washroom 
shall be kept clean. Water-closets used by factory employees 
shall be so arranged or located that such employees in passing 
tliereto or therefrom shall not be exposed to the outdoor atmos- 
phere and such closets shall be properly heated during cold 
weather. 

Now, the opposition, as I remember it, was this, to these pro- 
visions, first the one that Mr. Phillips just aHuded to, that it' 
would require running water, and that in the small foundries 
which employed five or more men that was impossible, and that 
this provision about requiring new closets with flush, and all the 
new patent arrangements, with running water, was impossible in 
a small town for a small foundry to have those things, without 
ruining it. 

If you will devote your argument — I don't want to cut you 
down — to giving us your view of those things, and see whether 
tliose arguments which they advance have anything behind them, 
I would appreciate it ? A. There is nothing said in the bill there 
about having a flush to the closet. It simply provides that the 
closet shall be adjacent to the foundry so that a man won't have 
to go through the open air in extreme cold weather. A foundry- 
man is usually in a state of perspiration. We claim when he goes 
out, sometimes when the thermometer is zero, he is apt to get 
pneumonia or bronchitis, he will get chilled, and the chill will 
cause kidney disease if a man is perspiring. 

Q. Now, what about the requirement of a supply of running 
water and that being impossible practically on account of the 
expense to a small foundry? A. Well, we have to have a proper 
wash. As I stated there, the bill was letting all of those country 
foundries out, having ^ye or less men. 



I.! 



i H 



74 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. They claimed there were no foundries that didn't have ^ve 
men? A. They said that the number was so small that there 
wasn't a foundry that did not have five men. 

Q. How are they getting along under their present law ? A. The 
present law, you know, Mr. Elkus, requires that in the factory 
there shall be a washroom provided with running water. 

Q. How do they get along now without that ? A. They don't 
have it 

Q. They don't have it, that is all ? A. This is not my argument 
now. 

Q. I know; you are speaking from their point of view? 

At this point, the following witnesses were sworn : 
Daniel W. O'Connor, John W. Kirwin, Matthew McGowan, 
Patrick H. Gary, John R. O'Leary, Thomas D. Fitzgerald. 

Mr. O'Leary : We seem to lose sight of the fact that there are 
other foundries besides iron foundries. There are hundreds of 
brass foundries in the State of New York that employ five 
molders, and less, hundreds of them. You will find them on the 
top stories of buildings, four stories and three stories, basements, 
back yards and little shops, you will find them in barns. 

By Commissioner Phillips : 

Q. Usually in cities? A. Cities and towns; of course, they 
are everywhere; they are just as liable to have a small brass 
foundry in a small town as they are to have an iron foundry. 
'Nowy the main point in that clause of that bill that interests the 
molders, the man who works, is that first they want an oppor- 
tunity to wash in warm water, and they don't want to be obliged 
to expose themselves imnecessarily to the weather, when it is 
necessary for them to go to closets. Now, in brass foundries that 
I have in mind, a man has constantly got a glow on or a sweat. 
It is different from the iron foundry. He does not commence to 
sweat there until probably after seven or eight in the morning. 
He sweats then until it is time to go home and during pouring 
off time especially, the men are wringing wet, and they have to 
hang up their wet clothes. He cannot wear them out ; they can't 
go home in them, and they don't have a place where they can 



I 



I 



John R. O'Lbaby. 



75 



chauge their clothes or where tlie clothes will dry, and in the 
morning when they come in, those clothes are frozen stiff, just 
as stiff as ice ; combination of cloth and ice, frozen water. ' To- 
day we have to take up that question as a trades union proposi- 
tion. We strike the shop; we don't believe it is necessary in this 
great State of New York to be obliged to resort to such methods to 
get good shop conditions, and I think that those are the essentials 
that we want to eliminate; we want to eliminate the gas; we want 
to ehminate the dust; it is a shame and a disgrace in some of the 
shops, m some of the earliest plants where they blow the cores 
with immense pressure of air out of big locomotive cylinders, and 
the dust of course flies, and they do it all during the day, and the 
men are obliged to just eat that. 

They tell us that everybody has had to eat so much dust there 
— I believe that the molder eats more than his share, especially 
m shops where they produce locomotive cylinders and other cast- 
ings, of course. 

The Witness: We will just settle this water closet question 
first Now, Mr. Elkus, all this bill says in relation to water 
c osets, IS that - " Water closets used by foundry employes 
should be so arranged or located that such employes in passing 
thereto or therefrom shall not be exposed to outside atmosphere! 
and such water closets shall be properly heated during cold 
weather." Where does it say anything there about flush ? 

Mr. Elkus : Nothing at all. 

The WirNEss: All the objections certainly fall to the ground 
The only objection they can raise is that part of it where it shall 
l.e properly heated during cold weather. About all we want is 
above a zero atmosphere. 

Mr. O'Leaby: It might surprise the committee to know that 
in the country towns frequently the foundries don't have any out- 
door closets. They don't have any closets of any character. 
By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Now then, the only other question is, is it going to be a 
Wship on the small foundry who has five Jmployef oris to do 



76 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 






Mr. O'Leaky: Absolutely none. 

Mr. McGowAN : I would like to state I know a shop at Phoe- 
nix, New York. There is a little foundry there where they have 
sometimes one or two men. When I was there I had about eight 
men working. Wherever there is a foundry there has got to be an 
immense amount of water. Every molder there during the day 
will use five or six or ten pails of water. And speaking of the 
supply of water, it is a very easy matter ; a man can equip a shop ; 
and I don't think it would cost him hardly anything. If a man 
has to have warm water you can put a water plug in his coreroom. 
It is an easy matter to put a boiler inside of that over there. 

Q. How much would you say it would cost ? A. I don't believe 
it would cost fifty or sixty dollars to overcome the whole of the bill. 

Q. Fifty or sixty dollars would pay for the whole business ? A. 
Whole business. 

Q. Now, are there many places in which they complain there 
is no water supply, small towns ? A. I know of none. 

Q. They have no closets at all in many of these places ? 

Mr. O'Connor : I suppose they have them away at a distance. 

Commissioner Phillips : Too far away to carry steam heat to, 
and have to put a stove in there, that was their argimient. 

Mr. O'Connor: All we want is so a molder won't have to go a 
quarter of a mile in zero weather after pouring off. 

Mr. McGowAN : I have seen them run through the yard, and it 
looks like a cloud going along, steam coming from them. 

Mr. O'Connor: If you consider that heat part of the bill as 
applied to closets, we will change it. 

Q. How will you change that ? 

Mr. O'Connor : So it will be bearable and not likely to cause 
pneumonia ; that is all we want, so we won't catch cold. 

Commissioner Phillips: That is where your Labor Depart- 
ment needs power to make rules. 

Mr. KiRWiN : I was speaking of one of the largest foundries, 
right over in Troy. Here is the toilet across the street, over the 
dam, over there, or creek ; all open underneath. 






Daniel W. O'Connor; Matthew McGowan. 77 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. How far have you got to go ? 

Mr. KiRwiN : About, I should say, about fifty or sixty feet. 
Q. That is, you mean it is an open space? 

Mr. KiRwiN : Yes. 

By Commissioner Gompers : 

Q. I understand you to say in that foundry which you men- 
tioned in Troy that the men had to go outside of the factory across 
the street in the open air to the water closet and then coine back 
again the same distance into the foundry? 

Mr. McGowAN : Yes. 

Q. Regardless of the atmosphere? A. Yes, take it, Mr. 
Gompers, in winter, you can imagine what the conditions must 
be inside there. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Is it a public street ? 

Mr. McGowAN : Public street, find snow in there half a foot 
deep. 

Mr. O'Connor: In the country districts they have to go along 
in the snow way down to the end of the yard. 

Q. What do they have foundries for in small towns ? 

Mr. O'Connor : Farming implements. 

Q. Why should these men oppose this bill if it is going to 
cost them only fifty or sixty dollars? 

Mr. McGowan: The only thing I can see is because the 
molders' union presented the bill. They kind of think it is a fore- 
runner for future bills to follow. 

Mr. O'Connor: Mr. McClintock, the Commissioner, came 
over there and made no opposition to the bill on its merits. His 
opposition was he stated all these things were provided for in the 
present Labor Law. The other people they were opposing it on 
this gi-ound and every thing else, and that the present Labor 
Law provided for it 



78 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



I 



Matthew McGowan. 



79 



\'\ 






By Mr. Elkus: 
Q. What do the women do in foundries in Elmira and Buffalo ? 

Mr. McGowan : If you were going to Elmira, Elmira is quite 
a town. If you could visit the Kennedy Valve Works. If you 
visit Elmira, the Kennedy Valve Works is the only shop in Elmira 
using women core makers. They work under the same roof as 
the men ; the shop is all one. The mill room where they tumble 
these castings, the blacksmith shop in there, where they do forg- 
ing; they clean all their castings in there; then comes the molders, 
then come the core makers, and here is three women working in 
there, core makers. They work right in there with the men, and 
you can't tell them from coal heavers to look at them. They tie 
their hair up to try to keep their heads clean. We complain of 
dust, dirt, gases and smoke and such like in foundries, and wo 
would like to have prohibited the cleaning of castings, and in 
this shop here the dust goes into very fine powder, so fine it will 
fly through the air, and the tumbling barrels are under the same 
roof, and at the end of the shop there are big railroad doors 
which allow trains to come in there, and when they are open it 
allows the dust to come down through the shop, and you can 
hardly see the girls right where they are working. Women and 
men are under one roof; no partitions through the building at 
all. It does not separate the cleaning room, the tumbling room, 
the molding room, the core room, all under one roof. There are 
another lot of women working in the brass foundry. I looked in 
where the brass molders were working, but I could not see where 
the girls were working. 

Q. How many girls have they got there? 

Mr. McGowan: Three in the iron, and I understood seven 
or eight in the brass foundry. 

Q. How manv men? 

Mr. McGowAN : At the time I was there, ' possibly sixty or 
seventy. 

Q. That is not many women. 

Mr. MoGowAN : No, but they have more in the brass foundry 
which is connected to it, but in the Gould Manufacturing Com- 



P 



pany, Sfeneca Falls, there is where you will find eighteen or 
nineteen women. 

By Commissioner Gompees: 

Q. Your home is in Syracuse ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When was this general association formed in the State of 
New York by the molders for the purpose of bringing about the 
enactment of a law that will remedy the evils of which you com- 
plain ? 

Mr. McGowan: About a year ago. 

Mr. O'Connor: The 1st of April, 1911. 

Mr. McGowAN : We struck so many shops over there, we find 
the Foundrymens' Association came in there. 

Q. I want for the record some facts that you can give. You 
say that the molders went on a strike in several establishments 
for the remedying evils ; will you please enumerate some of them ? 

Mr. McGowan: Two years ago in the brass plant in Syra- 
cuse, that is a factory where the men get sick at night, where the 
men come up, some of them stop, to get on a street car, and a car 
will go by and they will have to stop and wait for a car to pass 
for fear of turning inside out, after they get on the car, from the 
fumes of the core smoke in there. Every time we have to draw 
up an agreement, which is done once a year, they always keep 
promising they will do something to remedy that. So far thej 
have put skylights on there, but nothing to drive it off. 

Q. There have been, you say, a number of strikes ? 

Mr. McGowan: Attempted strikes, but we have been good 
enough to hold off through a lot of promises but they never filled 
the promises. 

Q. You made as one of the conditions of an agreement with the 
employers that they would furnish these closets adjacent to the 
factory ? 

Mr. McGowan : Yes, but they built under the old law a place 
possibly sixty or seventy feet from the shop for us to go, and a 
dry room, and a clothes room. 



80 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Mr. O'Leaby : It is a most common thing in any of the shop5 
in the State of N^ew York for men to quit work because of the 
fact that the drying rooms for the men's clothes are not heated, 
and their clothes are frozen in the morning, and because of the open 
salamanders and because of the gases from the cores. Thert is 
one point I want to bring out ; that most of these stove shops in 
the State of New York were built for stove shops, and stove shops 
^^Jy? years ago. They are low studded, with no idea of receiving 
any consideration regarding core gases, which came after they 
started what is known as the gas stove and the lead pipes and 
things of that character, and those are made alongside of all that 
emitsi a terrible gas, and it is stifling or choking in its character, 
and because of the fact that the roofs are low, because these shops 
were built for stove shops years ago the abuse is great, and the 
men would strike. 

By Commissioner Gompers: 

Q. There has been a transition in the industry, but no change 
in the plant in order to meet the new conditions? 

Mr. McGowAN : 'No. They have what they call in Syracuse 
to-day, what they call a core compound. It is a manufactured 
stuff for the making of cores. I don't think you will find one 
shop out of ten to-day that uses linseed oil. The oil better known 
to the molder is the fish oil. That is what they call it, because 
it has that smell of decayed fish, and the fumes from that is 
something awful. I don't know what it is but I have, I know, 
inhaled a couple of breaths of it and I will be all out for maybe 
a couple of hours ; makes you sick to your stomach. 

Q. Do you know of cases of illness of molders and core workers 
caused by the failure to have the closets near the foundry plant ? 
A. Well, I could not swear that the man just caught his cold or 
something from it, but I know we have molders after molders laid 
up with dreadful colds, that they caught pneumonia and bron- 
chitis, and rheumatism. 

Q. Your organization pays benefits, doesn't it, by reason of 
men's sickness ? 

Mr. McGowan: Yes; I guess >ve paid out several million 
dollars this last few years. 






L\ 



John K. O'Leary. 



81 



Mr. O'Connor: Might we touch on the washroom matter, 
Mr. Elkus? 

Mr. Elkus : Are you through, Mr. McGowan ? 

Commissioner Gompers: I want to get on the record the 
causes which prompted the formation of this Association of the 
Molders of the State of New York, and why the molders are ask- 
ing for this bill ? 

Mr. O'Connor: Mr. Gompers, I can send you the original 
circular calling for this, and stating the reasons for the call of the 
conference. We have it ; we will send it to your Commission. 

Mr. O'Leary : Can I answer your question ? 

The Chairman : What is it ? 

Mr. O'Leary : The question was asked by Mr. Gompers as to 
what prompted the molders to become active in securing relief 
from the abuses which they complain of, and I desire to make a 
brief statement that will probably answer the question for the 
purpose of the record. We have in our organization beneficial 
features. We pay sick benefits, death benefits and total disability 
benefits and in the winter time it is much greater than it is in the 
summer, all of those benefits. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Sick or death? A. Both sick and death, and total dis- 
ability, because when a man draws the total sick benefit for three 
vears in succession, and if he is one who has not recovered entirely 
from the illness that entitles him to the benefit, we compel him 
to draw a total disability benefit, and people sometimes become 
afflicted with bronchitis or kidnev trouble or some tubercular 
trouble that impairs their efficiency as molders ; they cannot work. 
They have either got to be well or sick in a foundry, there is no 
half way to it. Especially is that so nowadays because in a day 
workshop they won't have you around if you cannot produce 
pretty near the maximum amount of output. If it is a piece 
work shop you are simply taking up floor room and impair the 
efficiency of the plant by decreasing its output, if there are three 
or four sick men around, so that the men in the State of l^ew 



» 



82 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



York in giving consideration to that thing came in conference. 
We have what is known as conference boards. The State of New 
York is divided into three, New York City and vicinity, Central 
New York and Buffalo and vicinity, and in discussing many 
things that are bound to come up in a natural way at these con- 
ferences among other things that come up was the question of 
foundry conditions, and there was much criticism because of our 
being obliged to strike in these shops to get conditions that we 
felt we were entitled to because of the law, or if the law did not 
provide for that, that there sliould be a law that would provide 
for it, and with a view of bringing united action in the State of 
New York, a circular was sent forth from a central committee 
self constituted, to see what the temper of the molders of the 
State of New York was on that point. They asked that delegates 
be sent, and they came and discussed pros and cons of the thing, 
and there was a statistician appointed who was expert and reliable! 
and who is now in the employ of the American Museum of Safety,' 
now traveling in Europe, as one of their agents. I mention this 
to show that he wasn't an overenthusiatic man; he was a careful 
man and thorough, and so careful and thorough was he that this 
American Museum of Safety sought him and secured him. Now, 
he has prepared a chart. Tn that chart which will be at the dis- 
posal of the committee, I presume, if you want it, is set forth 
the various diseases that the molder is afflicted with because of 
those exposures in the foundry, and want of sanitation, and it 
gives the percentage all the way along, gives the death benefits 
paid covering a certain period, which necessarily was limited, the 
sick benefits that were paid and the disability benefits that were 
paid. It also shows what I understood to be insurance statistics 
where it showed that 80 per cent.— I will say 80 per cent.— it is 
either 1 or 2 per cent, under or over — 80 per cent, approximately 
of coremakers who die, die of some tubercular trouble in the State 
of New York. Of the molders who die in the State of New York 
there was approximately 75 per cent, of those died of some tuber- 
cular trouble. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Is Schilling the man referred to as being the statistician ? 



John 11. O'Leary. 



83 



Mr. O'Leary: Yes. 

Q. Is that the young man who appeared before us in Utica ? 

Mr. O'Leary: Yes. 

Q. Where was he employed? 

Mr. O'Leary: By the molders at that time, but now by the 
American Museum of Safety. 

By Commissioner Gompers : 

Q. So that the loss of time from which the molders suffered 
prevailed for a long period of time, but that your attention was 
called to it more directly by reason of the establishment of these 
benefits, by your union, and which you had to pay ? 

Mr. O'Leary: Yes. 

Q. Now, you had the purpose of safeguarding the health and 
lives of the men and women who work in the molding plants ? 

Mr. O'Leary: Aside from the direct sacrifices that the men 
who work are obliged to make, when it is necessary to strike to 
get better conditions. 

Q. To secure by legislation which you would otherwise have to 

strike for in order to secure? 

Mr. O'Leary: Yes. 
By Commissioner Hamilton: 

Q. May I ask was the opposition to this bill in the Assembly 
entirely based on the water closet proposition ? 

Mr. Elkus : Water closet and water in the small foundry. 

By Commissioner Gompers: 

Q. Upon what do you base a claim for such a law for oppor- 
tunities for washing up ? 

Mr. O'Leary : Well, we believe that common decency demands 
that a man shall have an opportunity to remove the marks of his 
toil in the foundry shop, in the foundry where we use black lead 
to finish the mold. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Does a man bring his lunch along with him ? 



84 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Mr. O'Leaky: Frequently. 

Q. Does he eat it right there in the same place ? 

Mr. O'Leaby: Yes. 

Q. And he wants to clean up and eat his lunch too, I suppose? 

Mr. O'Leaby: Yes; aside from the fact that a man is cov- 
ered with perspiration and the men in the foundries where there 
are no female core makers occasionally take a bath in the foundry 
borne one pours a pail of water over you, and vice versa, or a man 
stands and pours the pail on himself. 

Mr. McGowAN : Sometimes they take a chunk of iron that is 
hot to heat the water. 

Mr. O'Leaby : They take a casting or an ingot, what is left 
over after pouring a mold is poured into an ingot or thrown into 
the gangway and that retains heat. Now, there is one point that 
I think is an important one when it is brought out here, that the 
opposition to the bill is based entirely upon the possibilities of the 
abuse of the small foundry men. Take the suggestion made by 
Mr. McGowan, that in the small foundries it is possible to bring 
about all of these changes for less than fifty dollars ; I believe it 
could be brought about for even less than that. You all under- 
stand the principle that is involved in the heating of water in a 
water front in a stove ; everybody understands what a water front 
or water back is as the case may be. We also want to bring to 
your attention that every foundry has got to have a core oven that 
is constantly going day and night. Now, it is possible for the 
foundryman himself to cast his own water front, and to have it 
directly over the fire and to pipe it, if he has got a handy man 
around there. Of course, he may have electric power, but anybody 
can run a pipe from the supply to one end of the water back or 
heater and another pipe to a faucet. 

By Commissioner Gompers: 

Q. Such an apparatus could be provided by a few coils of pipe 
inside of the oven ? 

Mr. O'Leaby : Yes, but this would be a much cheaper arrange- 
ment, because he could make it himself, but the whole device could 



John R. O'Leary. 



85 



be produced for five dollars; no question about that. Now, the 
other proposition of moving the outhouse up so it would be con- 
nected directly with the foundry. The heat of the foundry would 
be sufficient to heat that closet and if a door arrangement could 
be pennitted, that wouldj)ermit whatever heat there was in the 
foundry to circulate, and'^have back ventilation ; that would take 
care of the obnoxious gases. There is the whole thing in a nut- 
shell, so far as that particular point is concerned, about the 

rimning water. 

It was also brought out, we want to emphasize it, that water is 
as essential to the operation of a foundry as is pig iron, as is coke, 
as is sand. You cannot make your sand without water ; it has 
got to be made into a proper consistency. Now, when they tell 
you that a foundry has not got water, they say something which is 
not correct. They have overhead running water or they have an 
ordinary little force pump, because a factory has got to have 
power. They have got to operate their fans to make the draft for 
their furnaces. They have got to operate their tumbling barrels ; 
many of them have their own little electric light plants, and things 
of that character. They have got to have power, and they have 
power. They can have the ordinary jigger pump there that will 
take care of a tank that will furnish the running water proposi- 
tion. They have the water, no question about that. 

Commissioner Jackson : Mr. McGowan just made the asser- 
tion, and I want it explained a little further what he means. I 
have a pretty good idea of what is behind the opposition to this 
bill. The Foundrymens' Association are afraid that if through 
the efforts of the workers this bill becomes a law, they could go 
into these shops, and urge the non-union men to join the union. 
There is nothing else to this opposition except just that much ; 
it was not the expense or the conditions; it was just that very 
one thing. 

The Chairman : The prestige the union would get ? 

Commissioner Jackson : Yes. 

Mr. O'Connor: Now, Mr. Chairman, may I touch on the 
washroom proposition, as contained in the present law and em- 
bodied in our bill ? 



86 



Minutes op Public Hearings. 



John R. O'Leaby. 



87 



ii 



Mr. Elkus: I think we have gone prettj well into that, about 
the washroom. Mr. McGowan was before us in Syracuse, and it 
was because of what he told us, that we went behind the bill and 
supported it. If you have anything further, go right ahead. 

Mr.O'CoNNOE: JuBt a couple of words. In the present law 
every factory is required to provide and maintain suitable and 
complete washrooms. 

Bj Mr. Elkus : 

Q. From where are you reading? 

Mr. O'Connor: This is the present law. 
By the Chairman: 

Q. What section of the law ? 

Mr. O'Connor: Section 88. That is the section of the law. 
By Commissioner Gompers: 
Q. Which law? 

Mr. O'Connor: The present Labor Law. What our bill 
wanted to add to the present law was this : In every foundry em- 
ploying five or more molders there shall be provided and main- 
tained for the use of employees therein, suitable and convenient 
washrooms, adequately equipped with hot and cold water service 
ihe present law says proper water service. It isn't of any use 
m a foundry without hot water service. And such washroom 
shall be kept clean and sanitary and properly heated during cold 
weather. The present law does not provide for that, for heating 
washrooms or hot water, and as a consequence there is a lot of 
these washrooms that are not used, because molders cannot use 
them. They are therefore useless under the present law If we 
have the hot water during the cold weather it will be of use to the 
molders. Of course a great many thousands that have washrooms 
they provide hot water, but they are not compelled by law to do 
so We want all washrooms to be compelled to furnish hot water 
and to be kept clean and to be kept warm. ' 

Q. N'ow, is there anything else ? 



Mr. O'Leary : I want to make one more observation regarding 
the conditions of the foundries where women are employed. We 
want to see the women excluded from the foundries, and we are 
handicapped as an organization in securing proper evidence to 
show that it is an unhealthy place for them. We realize that the 
laws of the State of New York provide that a law cannot stand 
that takes from the individual his right for employment, except 
that it is based on either health or moral grounds, and we have 
had difficulty in proving that the employment of women, the ob- 
jection to the employment of women, could be based on either. 
We know that there are statistics that show that the employees of 
foundries die in large number because of tubercular trouble. We 
believe that that would be sufficient ground if the committee could 
get the proper statistics, to justify their framing a law for pres- 
entation to the Legislature, and as I say it is impossible for us 
to get certain information about it. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. You mean as to the number of women employed ? 

Mr. O'Leary : No ; about the properties of the air. You have 
a bureau connected with, I think, the Department of Labor in the 
State of New York that investigates the atmosphere. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Your point is if we could exclude women from foundries at 
all, we would be exercising a police power. 

Mr. O'Leary: I believe you would be justified in that. 

Mr. Elkus: We are already investigating that thing. We 
have a corps of physicians who are working at it now. 

Mr. O'Leary: Yes; now, the International Harvester Com- 
pany have a large plant at Auburn, New York, and I came from 
there to-day. I learned that the International Harvester Com- 
pany contemplates employing women in large numbers in the 
foundries. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Is that the Harvester Company we hear so much about now ? 



1 



88 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Mr. O'Leaby: Yes. 
% Commissioner Phillips: 

fhi ^'^ f ' r"*'""^ ^^' "" *** ^^"' ''^'^ ^ do'^e i^ foundries: 
there are foundries in this State that you would not object to ? 

Mr. Elkus : You mean for women ? 

By Commissioner Phillips : 

can^'lonl "'"" '" ""' ""*'^^ "^' '^^''^*'^^ '' '^^ ^ «-' 

Mr. OXeaky: Yes. 

Bj Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Are theij any in Buffalo; are there any foundries in Buffalo 
tnat jou would call sanitary? 

how'th^BTr'/' ?'' ""' '°^ "'^ '^^^ *^^''«' I 'i'>'^'' i-«- 

iiow tile Buffalo foundries are there. 
By the Chairman: 

Q. i^one in Eochester? 

Mr. O'Leary : Some are very unsanitary. The Pratt & Letch- 
wor^h shop I haven't been in for some years since Mr. Bailey was 

Mr. Elkus: We are going to Buffalo tc^morrow. We know a 
number of foundries there are not what they ought to be. We 
wauW like to know if there is one that we could use as a copy or 

Mr. O'Leary : I am sorry I cannot point out one to you. 

Mr. Kirwin: If you stop in Schenectady you could see a 
sanitary foundry there, the General Electric. They built a new 
foundry there about two years ago, just practically as sanitary 
as you can get it. The water-closets there, the bowls are all porce- 
lain, steam heat in winter, and the drinking fountains, instead 
of using a cup they haye the fountain in the middle of the shop. 
They haye eight shower baths in the old foundry, uo shower 
baths m the new one. If we want to take a bath we go in the 
old foundry. 



John N. Kiewin. 



89 



By the Chairman: 

Q. Why didn't they put any in the new foundry ? 

Mr. Kirwin: I suppose they thought the old washroom was 
sufficient. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Right adjacent to you? 

Mr. Kirwin : Yes, yery handy, perhaps fiye or six steps from 
one building to the other. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Do the men use the shower baths pretty well ? 

Mr. Kirwin: Yes, they take it on a Saturday especially. 
Eyery night there is a matter of I should judge a hundred any 
way would take baths, and on a Saturday there will be a line 
up there waiting their turn anywhere from eleyen o'clock to half 
past twelve. Every night there is always a crowd taking baths. 
They have a washroom in the old foundry ydth, I should judge, 
about eight hundred metal lockers and there are two men there 
to take charge of that place and keep it clean. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Eight shower baths are not really enough. 

Mr. Kirwin : 'No, but they were put in there even before the 
present factory laws were passed. They are a kind of handy 
thing, and are kept in good shape. If we see anything in there 
that is not right all we have to do is to call attention to it and 
it is changed. 

Q. Do any of the men eat on the premises at noon? 

Mr. Kirwin : Yes ; only half an hour for dinner. 
Q. Do you have a lunch room? 

Mr. Kirwin. — There is a big restaurant there, but a majority 
of the men will sit down on the floor and eat. 
Q. Right in the foundry? 

Mr. Kirwin: Yes. 
By Commissioner Jackson: 
Q. How is the ventilation? 



90 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Mr. KiBwiN : Pretty fair. 
By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Do they wash themselves before they eat their lunch ? 

Mr. KiRwiN : The average man will, yes. 
By Commissioner Phillips : 

Q. They could go to the restaurant? 

* 

Mr. Kirwin: Yes. 

Q. For about twenty cents ? 

Mr. Kirwin: Yes, give a good dinner for twenty cents; the 
restaurant feeds on an average of about a thousand every noon. 
Then there are a good many step out on what we call the avenue, 
right handy. There are a number of hotels there, you can go in, 
and get a glass of beer, a glass of milk and a sandwich, whatever 
you want. 

By Commissioner Dreier: 

Q. Are the women taking the place of men in the work they 
are doing now ? 

Mr. O'Leary: Yes. 

Q. And they are nearly all foreign women, Italian or Polish 
women ? 

Mr. O'Leary; Yes, Polish and Italian, speak no English. 
Q. How much less do they get for the same work? 

Mr. O'Leary: Considerably less. Now, in the Auburn shop 
men core-makers working by the piece there run as high as $4.25 
to $4.50 a day. They would average, I should think, about $3.50 
or $3.40 a day; the women will earn 75 cents or 80 cents, 90 cents. 

Q. Do they work at piece work ? 

Mr. O'Leary: They work day work for awhile, then work 
piece work. 

Q. They cannot do the same kind of work as the men ? 

Mr. O'Leary : ISTo, they won't produce possibly half as much, 
but even if they would produce the same, the prices are cut. 
Q. Do they get less for piece work than the men? 

Mr. O'Leary: Yes, frequently get fifty per cent. less. 

Q. For piece work ? A. Yes. 

Q. I don't mean by the day but by the piece. 



John E. O'Leary. 



91 



Mr. O'Leary: Yes, piece work. 

Q. That is what I mean to say, they don't get less by the day, 
because they cannot work as fast, because the price per piece is 
less. 

Mr. O'Leary: Yes, the piece price on this job would be fifty 
per cent, less for a woman than for a man. 

By Commissioner Phillips : • 

Q. Do they put men to work at that same work ? 

Mri O'Leary : The men are working there now, and they hope 
to replace them. 

Q. So there really is a comparison there ? 

Mr. O'Leary: Yes. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Are these women married or single? A. Frequently are 
married women. 

Q. Where are their husbands? 

Mr. O'Leary: Some of them, their husbands possibly work 
in the foundries. 

By Commissioner Dreier: 

Q. Are the foundrymen in "New York State mostly American 
men or English speaking men ? 

Mr. O'Leary: I think it is safe to say that the great majority 
of the molders and core makers in the State of 'New York are 
English-speaking people, but that is now being changed, because 
the American boy won't go into the foundry. He won't learn the 
molding trade, and it is not an uncommon thing for us now to 
go into any city in the State of New York and find men whom 
you have to make signs to, who cannot speak the English language, 
because they are the man whom they take right off Ellis Island. 

Q. Then the foundry business is being taken up by foreign men 
and women both ? 

Mr. O'Leary: That is almost entirely because of conditions 
in the foundry, and the brutal character of the work. The 
American boy won't learn it. 



92 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Ml 



Q. Were you successful in organizing the men and women ? 

Mr. O'Leary: We make no effort to give any consideration 
to the organization of women, and the man who comes into the 
foundry to-day, he comes in as a non-English speaking molder; 
he is excellent material for organization, the best 

Q. You get him ? 

Mr. O'Leary : Oh, yes ; it has got to the point now where we 
have got to put organizers out who speak many languages. That 
is something that became necessary about four or five years ago. 
In the city of Detroit, the majority of the molders in Detroit are 
of either native bom Poles or of Polish extraction. We have per- 
haps some four thousand organized molders in Detroit. It is 
safe to say that three thousand are of Polish birth. The same 
thing is true in Milwaukee, in Cleveland and largely so in Chi- 
cago; it is also true in a great measure in Buffalo. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Those who are bom in this country of Polish extraction 
do they speak English? 

Mr. O'Leary: Oh, yes; they are very bright. 

Q. Are they good citizens ? 

Mr. O'Leary : They are going to be the best, I think, ^ow, 
in the city of Buffalo, I think it is safe to say that 80 per cent, of 
the men who are molding in the foundries there are of Polish 
extraction or Polish birth, so you can judge by that, the few 
Americans who are going in for learning molding and coremak- 
ing; there must be a reason. 

Mr. Elkus : Well, that is so in most of the heavy trades. 

By Commissioner Dreier: 

Q. Would there be much difficulty in organizing the women, 
if you got the men? Why wouldn't you consider taking the 
women into the organization ? 

Mr. O'Leary: Well, it is a question that hasn't come very 
prominently before the molders for consideration until the last 
convention in Philadelphia. At that time some thought was given 
to relieving the situation there through securing l^islation to 



John R. O'Leaey. 



93 



prohibit their employment, because we felt that that was no place 
for women to work, and I don't know that any thought was given 
to the organization of them while the molders were of the opinion 
they shouldn't be there. 

Q. I think every trade thought that of women, but the women 
have gotten into every trade, and are throwing out men. 

Mr. O'Leary: There are some trades that we concede are 
not harmful to women who work at them, but as to molding we 
believe it is harmful. I personally feel as a trade union proposi- 
tion that all who work should be organized, but I was speaking 
from a moral viewpoint. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. You think morally and physically it is not really the place 
for women ? 

Mr. O'Leary : I cannot conceive of any other one place where 
women should be kept out more so, than they should be kept out 
of foundries. 
By Commissioner Phillips: 

Q. Do you know anything of the conditions in the Rochester 
foundries ? 

Mr. McGowAN : As far as the sanitary conditions, about the 
same as they are at Syracuse, cleaning of castings done in foun- 
dries and drying of ladles, such a^ that, dust gathers and so forth. 
In Syracuse, the most notorious shop we had there was burnt to 
the ground, the Globe Malleable shop where women were em- 
ployed, and at a hearing on the bill, the representative of that 
shop made some very wrong statements. He claimed that the 
women core makers had a separate department for core making, 
which is untrue. There was just one building and a partition 
went about half the length of it, about six feet high, and at this 
end here (indicating) was the core room which took the whole 
width of that building. There was a pail of water at the end of 
the building the women drank out of one side, the men the other. 
He made a statement he had a separate department, inside toilets 
and dressing rooms. The only dressing room is what we call a 
stock room where the cores are kept. 



94 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 






By Commissioner Gompfrs: 

Q. That might have been his conception of a dressing room. 

Mr. McGowan: The girls had to go in there and take a 
molders' bottom board and lay that down to stand on while they 
changed their garments. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Mr. O'Connor, was it you who wrote me the conditions had 
improved very much in Syracuse ? 

Mr. O'Connor : Yes ; I was just going to suggest to the chaii- 
man that he ask Mr. McGowan if there has not been a big change 
for the better in Syracuse since your Commission was up there 1 

Mr. Elkus : I think we would like to have that on the record. 

Mr. McGowan: I might state yes. Factory inspection 
seemed quite a common thing in Syracuse after you people were 
there. The factory inspector any way kept very busy along the 
line of inside toilets, and the cleaning up of foundries. They 
whitewashed three shops there, and some of them have put in the 
inside toilets, and make quite an improvement; it has been very 
acceptable to the molders there; they have all spoken of it. That 
shows, anyway, if we did not get our bill passed, it had some 
effect any^vay, but the strongest part we have got there is the 
eliminating of drafts in the foundry ; that is one bad thing, open- 
ing up those large doors to allow teams to draw in there, and 
molders working along here (indicating) and those wagons driv- 
ing in there, sometimes are there three-quarters of an hour. 

Q. A foundryman when he goes to work takes off his old 
clothes and puts on his overalls. 

Mr. MoGowan: It is necessary for you to strip bare; you 
cannot be clumsy; can't wear anything on your hands; in some 
of the foundries the water will be frozen up, and you have to 
take it in the core room and thaw it out; conditions are so bad 
in the winter time. For that reason you have got to dress and be 
very freehanded, can't be tangled up ; can't get over the ground 
you have to cover, and you get so much sometimes, your hands 



Matthew McGowan. 



95 



will be all cracked, big cuts in there, and sores. The men every 
night are using some kind of salve or ointment; next day you 
have got to strip off the stuff; can't finish your molds with them; 
those are the conditions ; the unsanitary conditions, and the elimi- 
nating of drafts in foundries which are necessary, and I don't see 
where the foundryman has got anything to lose money on that 
proposition; I have seen foundries hardly having help enough 
on account of so many being out of the shop. The cleaning of 
castings is awful bad. The engine works right directly in the 
middle of the shop, hoists those big castings up ; they are cored 
up, lined up, with brick, the same as a brick building is ; all of 
those bricks have got to be knocked loose; they are put together by 
sand and clay, and that all goes into dust. Those castings should 
be loaded on cars and run out of there and cleaned outside of 
there. Sometimes you can't tell a man ten feet away from you 
for the cloud. They chip the castings right there. They dry 
their ladles, four or five ton crane ladles full of old stuff, pour 
oil in there, that dries the lining of the ladle. 

It is the same in dozens of shops all through this State. Take 
the dust and the black heavy smoke, charcoal fumes along with 
that, and men trying to work in that, it eats his eyes out. 

Bv Commissioner Phillips: 

Q. Do all large foundries have traveling cranes? 

Mr. McGowan: Yes, I have seen them fellows come down 
out of those cranes, and reel around like drunken men. If that 
is healthy I don't know what you can call healthy. I know one 
fellow by the name of O'Brien died very suddenly. I found him 
dead in the toilet ; I being the man that discovered him. I had to 
go before the coroner's inquest, and the doctors who performed 
there said — I was very inquisitive to see what the man did have 
— and he told me that he died from heart trouble, but in the 
examination why the cells of his lungs, some of them were one- 
third or more packed with hard substance, dust and sand that was 
inhaled. His lungs were simply taking this stuff all the way 
through ; that was the condition he found the man in ; could not 
hardly put the knife in him, couldn't cut him. 



96 



Minutes op Public Heabings. 



1 1 • (■: 



r t 



Mr. O'CoNNOK : I would like to say, Senator, if you will allow 
me, that you will perceive that a foundry is altogether different 
from the average factory, and that there ought to be a special law 
for foundries; special laws are necessary for a foundry. 

The Chairman : Well, we are very much obliged to you gentle- 
men. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Is there any other satisfactory foundry besides the one of 
the General Electric at Schenectady? 

Mr. McGowan: I don't know of one in this State in the 
central part of New York State. 

Mr. O'Connor: I would say also, Senator, that there is some- 
thing else we have been thinking of in relation to core ovens, and 
ovens where they dry the ladles to have them so they can be opened 
on the inside. Now, they are all fastened on the outside. We had 
a case here some years ago of a man being caught inside, a man 
shut inside and no way of his getting out, and the machinery 
drowned the noise of him, and he suffocated to death there ; found 
two or three hours after. There should be something in the case of 
core ovens, and ovens where they dry the ladles, to have them open 
from the inside. 

By Commissioner Hamilton : 

Q. Have you had a strike of the molders at the General Electric ? 

Mr. Kirwin: No, not a general strike, but simply a little 
walk out. 

Q. What is the cause of that ? 

Mr. KiBWPN : The foreman generally called them down. 

Mr. O'Connor: On behalf of the organization I thank the 
Commission for the opportunity of being present to-night. 

At this point a recess was taken until Tuesday, May 28, 1912, 
at 10 o'clock ▲. M. 



MINUTES OF THE NEW YORK STATE FACTORY INVESTIGAT- 
ING COMMISSION, HELD AT THE CAPITOL, IN THE CITY 
OF ALBANY, ON THE 28th DAY OF MAY, 1912. 



Albany, New York, May 28, 1912. 

10 O'CLOCK, A. M. 

The Commission met pursuant to adjournment. 

Present: 

Same as before. 

Hon. John Williams, recalled. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Commissioner, yesterday we had discussed at some length 
the various forms which you furnished your inspectors upon which 
they gave you certain statistics and information and we ascertained 
that half the time was spent in the inspector getting the informa- 
tion he obtained, in the factory itself. Now, I suppose it takes an 
inspector quite some time to write down information in one of the 
books in the first instance ? A. I think that depends largely upon 
the character of the establishment. 

Q. Well, it takes him some time, whether it is long or short, it 
takes him some time ? A. Yes. 

Q. Have you ever considered this being done, that in New York 
city for instance, where the factories are close together, your in- 
spection districts cover a comparatively small radius, of employing 
clerks who would gather these statistics for you, fill out the books, 
so far as the, names and number of employes, names of children and 
such other information as simply requires clerical work, and then 
pass the book over to the inspector himself, to make the necessary 
inspection, and report, then following out your own system ? A. T 
have not. 

Vol. 111 — 4 

[97] 



98 



Minutes op Public Heabings. 



John Williams. 



99 



Q. Don't you think if you had something like that, you would 
have many more inspections done ? A. I assume that would reduce 
— in fact, I know it would reduce the work of the inspector. 

Commissioner Dbeieb : Won't that be remedied by this factory 
registration ? 

Mr. Elk us : I was coming to that. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. With the factory registration in complete working order, and 
with the employment of a clerk to help out the inspectors, a clerk 
at a comparatively small salary to do the clerical work ? A. That 
is such a novel suggestion that I would require time to think it 
over; it would be a decided innovation. 

Q. It is only by innovation that we get results ? A. I want to 
say that I have never heard of anything of the kind being attempted 
by any department of factory inspection in the world. 

Q. That may be, but probably we have conditions existing in 
large cities, particularly in New York city, that do not exist 
anywhere else in the world ? A. I am not sure as to that 

Q. In New York city there are probably in an ordinary loft 
building five or six separate establishments which are factories; 
that is not unusual ? A. No ; it is common in New York. 

Q. And in the same block there will be ten office buildings ? A. 
Probably in some of them. 

Q. Well, now, you take the district between Fifth and Sixth 
avenues, from 14th to 25th streets, from Fifth to Broadway ? A. 
There are a large number. 

Q. Now, a clerk could be trained and turned loose as to all in 
that district and would gather the information and the clerk would 
write a legible hand so that the work could be duplicated by some 
duplication process, a carbon sheet, very simple, and would get 
most of the information which your men now laboriously write, 
and some, as you say, in bad handwriting; isn't that so? A. It 
oould be done; there is no doubt about that, that the statistical 
information collected by the inspector could be done by a special 
staff connected with our Bureau of Labor Statistics. 

Q. You can call it a special staff ; it does not make any differ- 
ence, but it need not be men who receive $1,500 a year; it need 



k 



not be men who have special training. Now, may I ask you an- 
other question, with the present law of registration you have most 
of the information furnished by the manufacturer himself? A. 
Yes, but in connection with that, Mr. Elkus, you should bear in 
mind that this gives us the information as to the establishment 
at the time of registration, and there is no provision for annual 
registration, nor would this take into account the development 
and growth of industry. We could not rely upon the statistics 
given to us. 

Q. You could very easily, could you not, under that registra- 
tion, have them inform you whether there were any changes in 
their business ? A. I think not, under the present law. 

Q. Would you be in favor of an annual registration? A. It 
might be advisable in order to facilitate the work of inspection, 
and eliminate the need of gathering statistics through our force 
of inspectors, to require that manufacturers should furnish statis- 
tical data each year. 

Q. Do you thiiik that would be any hardship on the manu- 
facturer ? A. No, I don't think so. 

Q. Of course, this Registration Law was an opening wedge. I 
presume after you once had them registered, it is not so difficult 
to have a law passed requiring annual reports ? A. Yes. 

Q. It would be simple to get up a form which they could fill 
out? A. Or may I say this: I should like Mr. Gompers' idea 
and opinion upon this particular point. If we were to dis- 
card the method now followed of securing statistical data each 
vear and in lieu of that should decide to gather the statistics once 
in five years, would that deviation from the present method be 
satisfactory to labor and to others who are interested in knowing 
the conditions and development in our industrial establishments? 

Commissioner Gompers : I think not. I think that the statis- 
tics gathered, and published by the Bureau of Labor of the State 
of New York are regarded as a very important function. 

The Witness: May I ask is it not regarded also as among 
the best published in this country ? 

Commissioner Gompers: Are you looking for a diploma or 
an endorsement? 



100 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



I 



The Witness : I ani looking for a compliment, if it is de- 
served. 

Commissioner Gompers : It is all right, very good. 

Mr. Elkus : We would like to have your inspectors make more 
inspections. 

The Witness : I am with you. 

Q. We would like, therefore, to give them more time to make 
them by taking away as much as we can, the clerical work they 
have to do, which takes up threcKjuarters of their time. A. I 
cannot quite agree with you. 

Q. It takes half of their time to do the copying; it takes at 
least half of the balance to do the work itself when they are in 
the factory ? A. That is exactly what they are doing. 

Q. Inspection does demonstrate that frequent visits of an in- 
spector made at short intervals create a great deal of improve- 
ment; you know that? A. Undoubtedly. 

The Witness: We have no provision in our law relating to 
the cleaning of windows, and I don't want the Commission to 
forget it. 

Q. That is one of the things you would like to have enacted 
into law? A. Why not? 

Q. The power to see that windows are made clean. A. And 
the power also to compel them to repair windows when the glass 
is broken. 

Q. Isn't the power in the Labor Law now to to make them clean 
windows in the factories, isn't it under your general power to 
make a factory safe; can a man work safely in a factory, where 
a window is dirty ? A. Well, there might be a sufficient amount 
of light coming through the window, while it is not very clean. 

Q. Section 84 provides for walls, ceilings, floors and recep- 
tacles? A. Yes. 

Q. Well, then, you would suggest an amendment to section 
84 ? A. I think that is where it belongs. 

Q. That floors and windows shall be maintained in a safe con- 
dition, and shall be kept clean and sanitary at all times? A. 
Yes. 



John WrLLiAMS. 



101 



1- 



Q. Wouldn't it be possible to make some very broad provision ? 
A. I should think it might be very simple to do that instead of 
trying to limit each little thing. Reverting to what you said a 
few minutes ago, Mr. Elkus, regarding the desirability of repeated 
visits, with all of which I agree, I should like to get clear in my 
mind, what is your view as to the importance of recording every 

visit ? 

Q. Why wouldn't it be sufficient for an inspector to say: 
" Visited factory so and so, such and such a floor such and such 
a day, between the hours of half past ten and half past eleven ; 
found no violations of law, place cleanly, ventilation good." A. 

That is precisely what we do. 

Q. That is not a special inquiry on the blue slip? A. No; we 
require them to report obser^^ition visits ; they give the name, ad- 
dress, and brief statement. Therv^ don't fill out those tabular 
spaces in this instance. 

Q. Very well; that is the same thing; that is only when a 
special complaint is made? A. Oh, no. 

Q. When do you make those special inquiries; when do they 
use those blue cards? A. Whenever for any reason they visit 
a factory on an observation visit or on a complaint. 

Q. Well, they don't do it except when there is a special com- 
plaint, or to find out if there is a compliance with an order ? A. 
Oh, yes, they do. 

Q. AVell, when ? A. We have right in this supervising district 
now inspectors who have covered the territory for the required 
annual inspection, and are going over it a second time, and are 
making what we call observation visits. 

Q. How many more inspections can they make a day or visits ? 
A. They can make considerably more when they are simply re- 
porting in this simple way. 

Q. Can't they make three or four times as many as when they 
made the regular annual visit ? A. Certainly ; does not take them 
more than one-third of the time. 

Q. Why can't you have a little card in which is stated the name 
of the factory, the days and hours of visits ; the time spent there, 
and by the way I suggest that on these slips that you print here, 
I suggest that you print when a man arrives at the factory and 



102 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 






when lie leaves ? A. You have touched upon a point now, that 
we have discussed in this room repeatedly. I have discussed it 
with Mr. Whalen's predecessor and with him. It might be inter- 
esting for the Commission to get Mr. Whalen's view upon that. 
We have been over it so often. 

Q. Is there any objection to it? A. I myself am in favor of 
it. I believe that there is no objection and there should be no 
objection to having the record of inspection indicate clearly when 
the inspector entered the place and when he got through. 

Q. As to the regular annual inspection, why couldn't you sim- 
ply have a card, you might have any size you please, giving the 
name of the factory, its location, the date of the visit and the 
hour, and then have a blank in which anything the inspector 
thought attention should be called to, he should write down ? A. 
Yes, just exactly what we require them to do upon those visits 
now, and record upon the card. 

Q. Filling out this would not take t\yo minutes ? A. No, don't 
take more than two or three minutes to fill out; of course takes 
time to go through the plant to see everything is right. 

Q. That depends upon the inspector too ? A. Somewhat. 

Q. I should be very glad. Commissioner, if you would con- 
sider the suggestion I made about employing clerks to do the 
statistical work, and let us have your views about it. 

By Commissioner Dreier: 

Q. Are the inspectors trained when they first go into office, 
or do they go right into the field work ? A. They are trained 
right from the start, to take up regular work ; that means to take 
all kinds of inspection work. 

Q. I should like to know what the standard is. It seems to 
me we found when we entered the factories, different standards ; • 
the employers had certainly different standards of cleanliness. 
What is the standard inspectors have ; have they got any uniform 
standard? A. As nearly as the uniform standard can be incul- 
cated we have. That is to say the inspectors who are now ap- 
pointed to the service in Greater New York are instructed by two 
of our l>est inspectors, who understand fully the standards that 
we wish to have established, and they explain these matters in 



John WrLLiAMs. 



103 



detail to the new men. Of course, the maintenance of that stand- 
ard depends upon the conception of the individual and as there 
are no two men alike, it is rather difficult to find that the standard 
is maintained. 

Q. Do you take a young inspector and send him out with an 
instructor? A. Yes. 

Q. That is the method ? A. That is the method of inspection; 
in the instruction of the last group of inspectors that were ap- 
pointed, they were sent out in threes and fours with a competent 
instructor. Then they were changed from one to the other ; then 
they were taken to different sections of the city ; then our instruor 
tions were that they return to the office, and then the men go 
over the cards in detail, and they stay with them just as long as 
it is necessary. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Commissioner Williams, is there any record kept on the 
card of inspection report which you have filed here, your annaul 
card of violations against each property from that time on, and 
what was done with reference to it? A. The record is not kept* 
upon this card. 

Q. Is a record of each factory kept ? A. Oh, yes. 

Q. Where is that kept? On which card is that kept? A. You 
mean an office history? 

Q. Yes. A. We have just adopted a new card; there is a card 
upon which we are recording the history of a plant. 

Q. Yesterday we were inquiring about the co-operation be- 
tween the iState and the local departments. Does your Depart- 
ment refer defective conditions in any case to local departments? 
A. Only in New York city. 

Q. What do you do there? A. We bring to the attention of 
the respective parties, that is the city department having juris- 
diction, any conditions which are in violation of law over which 
we have no authority. For instance in matters relating to fire 
escapes and exits, we direct the attention of the Fire Commis- 
sioner or the Bureau of Fire Prevention to such matters; de- 
fects in structure are brought to the attention of the Bureau of 
Buildings. 



104 



Minutes of Public Heakings. 



Q. Now have you a record of those in the last few years. A. 
They acknowledged receipt in every instance. 

Q. Have you a statement of those that you could prepare and 
let me have ? A. 1 dare say we can. 

Q. Now, take the case of windows that you find are not clean. 
When you find windows are very dirty, do you refer that to a 
local department? A. No; to be entirely frank about that we 
bluff it through ; we order them to clean them ; but if they told 
us to mind our own business, we could not do anything. 

Q. Suppose they told you they would not do what you wanted 
them to do, what would you do then ? A. T don't know that we 
could do much of anything under the circumstances. 

Q. Wouldn't you refer it to a local department? A. If there 
is a local department with authority, I must confess my ignorance. 

Q. The Health Department would have power in New York, 
and every other city of the State, to order clean windows? A. 
Under what provision ? 

Q. There is a general provision in ever}' sanitary code that gives 
power to order cleanliness? A. Well, that window there (indi- 
cating) is not very clean, is it, and yet I don't think it is un- 
sanitary. 

Q. Now, have you considered the power to be given to you to 
make rules and regulations with reference to bakeries in the State, 
and with reference to dangerous trades and occupations, and 
classifying thein and accident prevention, as I suggested to yon ? 
A, I haven't considered with reference to any definite suggestion, 
Mr. Elkus, but I am decidedly in favor of amending the law, so 
that the Department could prescribe rules and regulations with 
respect to sanitation and safety. 

Q. Well, would you be in favor of your Departnieut alone mak- 
ing those rules and regulations, or how should they be formulated; 
would you call together and appoint advisers to either suggest or 
approve? A. If we were to have a division of industrial hygiene 
I should think that such sanitary regulations should be formulated 
upon the advice and suggestion of that division, and if we are to 
have a board of safety experts, or whatever it might be called, 
regulations regarding safety should be made upon the recommenda- 
tion of such a board. 



John Williams. 



105 



Q. Now, have you any suggestions to make generally or specifi- 
cally, if you please, about factory inspection '( 1 have covered now 
all of my questions on the subject. We will be glad to hear any 
suggestions you have generally on the subject or specifically. T 
mean I want to extend an invitation to you to spread yourself on 
the record as to what suggestions you have about the entire matter. 
How would you suggest the Department be changed, be given 
greater powers, and the system of inspection be changed. This is 
a broad, general and large invitation to lay your views before 
the (Commission, on that subject ? A. I don't think, Mr. Elkus, 
that L would care to attempt to give my views offhand upon such 
a broad subject as that. 

Q. You know I sent you this request for information three weeks 
ago ( A. I know it, and I have been exceedingly busy with a great 
many things. Regarding the organization of the bureau of factory 
inspection, I am free to confess that I consider the present plan of 
organization a very satisfactory one. 

It has been reorganized, as you know, upon the basis proposed 
by the Wainwright Commission. 

The Commission gave some thought, not to the details, but to the 
general plan of the work, and our experience with that plan, so far 
as it has gone, is very satisfactory. Since it has been established, 
we have, I think I may safely say, improved the character of the 
service rendered by the bureau. You will recall that the bureau of 
inspection was subject to some criticism, and not without cause, I 
must admit, because of the time that elapsed between the inspec- 
tion, and the receipt of orders or notices to comply with the 
requirements of the law. This criticism had particular reference 
to conditions in Greater New York. 

Q. That was brought out by this Commission ? A. Yes, with 
the new system we have been enabled to eliminate the delay en- 
tirely. I think that the line of inquiry that was followed yesterday 
and my responses to the questions indicate rather clearly that I 
believe that the Bureau of Factory Inspection should be extende<l- 
in other directions ; not alone more inspectors, but that technical 
divisions should be created in the bureau. 

Q. Mr. Williams, have you ever thought that you could have 
among your inspectors a system of investigation work akin to what 



lot) 



Minutes op Public Hearings. 



r-w 






this investigating commission is doing? Perhaps I had better 
explain a little further. An investigating commission is only 
temporary ; its results are sometimes good, it stirs up attention to 
things; otherwise employes even if they are good get in a rut. 
They are perfunctory in their work ; they do as little in most cases 
as they are required to do. A commission comes along and by 
inquiry creates interest and stirs up the matter, and some good is 
done, but a commission is temporary; it lasts a year or two and 
goes, and gradually everybody goes back. Now, wouldn't it be 
possible in your Department to have investigations by your super- 
vising inspectors from time to time ? A. You mean the work done 
in the field ? 

Q. Yes, not a mere checking over of accounts by one supervising 
inspector of the inspectors under him, but a gathering together 
of the supervising inspectors and investigation into what is being 
done and what is not done, and the conditions that exist ? A. I 
think that might be helpful, and in fact Mr. Whalen and I have 
been discussing the plan of holding conferences and comparing 
notes, and getting at the weak spots, wherever they may develop so 
as to strengthen the work and correct whatever needs to be cor- 
rected. I think that the divisions that were discussed yesterday 
and deemed advisable to be created in the bureau could undertake 
much of the work, and continue much of the work that this Com- 
mission has undertaken. I am not sure that the bureau needs 
much further reorganization ; it needs additions ; the addition of 
technical divisions and branches and the strengthening of the field 
force, bringing the force up to its full quota as provided by law. 
That in my judgment is the important step to be taken in order to 
accomplish some of the results the Commission is evidently anxious 
to accomplish, namely, the frequent inspection of factories. It 
matters not what method is followed, what plan is adopted, unless 
we have sufficient force, we cannot cover the territory with such 
frequency as it should be covered. There are as we know limits 
to our physical ability, and we cannot go beyond them. 

Q. What increase in the Department would you suggest to meet 
with your views ? A. Ultimately the field force should be brought 
up to its full quota of 125. 



John Williams. 



107 



I 



! I 



Q. What else ? A. Of course, to bring the field force up to that 
full quota would entail an addition to the clerical force, and it 
would mean the extension of our office work. All of these things 
must be considered together. I notice that you have here a ques- 
tion regarding the advisability of establishing suboffices in dif- 
ferent cities and the desirability of having violations of orders 
sent directly from such suboffices. I do not think it is either neces- 
sary nor is it under the present plan of organization desirable; 
neither do I believe that it will ever be necessary to change from 
the method that now obtains in the territory outside of Greater 
New York. In Greater New York the notices are sent out 
directly from that office to-day. For the territory outside of the 
metropolitan district, the notices are sent from here, and no time 
would be gained by having the notices sent from the local offices. 
As I pointed out, I think yesterday, I have had instances come to 
my notice recently where the inspection was made on one day, the 
report received in this office the next day, the notice written the 
following day after the examination of the record, and mailed out, 
the proprietor of the factory receiving his notice three days 
after the inspection, and I believe that the plan we have adopted 
of sending these notices out from Albany for this territory is more 
economical than would be the plan of sending them from the local 
offices, because we concentrate here; the examination of all of this 
work is done in this office, and the notices are written by notice 
writers who have been trained in that work. 

Bv Commissioner Dreier: 

Q. Your bureau of statistics, what is its special function ; does 
it make special investigations ? A. It does. 

Q. Well, this proposed bureau of industrial hygiene or medical 
department, whatever you may choose to call it, might they be 
under its direction ? A. I think not ; I think that should be part 
of the organization of the Bureau of Factory Inspection. 

Q. But it would be special investigation ? A. That would only 
be part of the work of the division of industrial hygiene; to 
investigate would be one part of its work, to serve in an advisory 
capacity would be another. 



108 



Minutes of PrBLic Hearings. 



ii 



■f 



I ; r 
I. < 






Q. For instance, in the working out of special rules for special 
trades, that would necessitate of course a great deal of special 
investigation? A. Precisely. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. What are such special investigations ( A. They take up 
special suhjects, such as some few years ago they investigated the 
subject of hours of labor of women in canneries, and we have in- 
vestigated recently the night work of women in the telephone 
service; that is substantially the nature of the special investiga- 
tions undertaken by that bureau. 

Q. That would be part of the work of this other bureau, would 
if not ? A. Which ? 

Q. I mean this proposed division of industrial hygiene. A. I 
think not; I think it properly belongs to the Bureau of Factory 
Inspection, because the investigations made by such a division 
would concern conditions in manufacturing establishments largely 
if not entirely. 

Q. Perhaps my idea is different, but it seems to me that it 
would also comprise these other points, the number of hours, the 
eifect of long hours. A. But as I look upon it the subject of the 
investigation by the division of industrial hygiene would be to 
form a basis of further remedial legislation and the enforcement 
of such remedial legislation would be by the bureau of factory 
inspection, so that it occurs to me that the work of the division of 
industrial hygiene would be so closely related to that of factory 
inspection, that it should be at that bureau. 

Q. How many people are in the bureau of statistics ? A. About 
twenty-two persons. 

Q. What are they, chief statisticians and clerks? A. Chief 
statistician and senior and junior statisticians, special agents and 
stenographers and clerks. 

Q. Do they make investigations in that department, or do they 
simply take statistics that are furnished to them by the bureau of 
factory inspection in other departments, and compile them? A. 
They conduct independent investigations. 

Q. What kind of investigations ? A. During the last winter we 
investigated — That bureau investigated the subject of night 
work for women in telephone exchanges. 



John Williams. 



109 



.!• 



Q. Then what other business have you in the Department ; you 
have the factory inspection bureau, you have the statistical 
bureau? A. The bureau of mediation and arbitration, whose 
function is to intervene in labor disputes. 

Q. Yes. A. 1 endeavor to settle them without any power. We 
have power of inquiry. 

Q. But no power of compulsory arbitration? A. No. 

Q. Then you have a bureau, you have an Immigration Bureau ? 
A. We have a bureau of mercantile inspection, bureau of immi- 
gration and industries and division of industrial directory. 

Q. Take up the Btireau of Immigration ; what is that for ? A. 
The chief reason for the existence of a bureau of industries and 
immigration is to protect the inunigrant, the aliens against ex- 
ploitation primarily. 

Q. What kind of exploitation? A. Well, they are frequently 
subjected to fraud and extortion. 

Q. This bureau they can appeal to then and they will protect 
them? A. They file complaints with the bureau and the com- 
plaints are investigated and if a violation of law has been com- 
mitted, it is the duty of that bureau to refer the information 
to the proper authorities, and to render assistance in the prosecu- 
tion of such violations. 

Q. Won't the local authorities take up these cases without the 
intervention of the State bureau ? A. It seems not ; it seems that 
there was a very good reason for the creation of it. 

Q. If a man or a woman who is an immigrant complains that 
something has been done which requires redress, they investi- 
gate? A. Yes. 

Q. Isn't that really the function of the local authorities in the 
different parts of the State ? A. It might be, but the local authori- 
ties have certainly neglected their duty, if that is the case. 

Q. Why do you use the words industries and immigration; 
what has that got to do with it ? A. I cannot answer the question 
definitely as to why the framers of the law adopted that title, but 
technically under the powers conferred in the creation of that 
bureau, it is supposed to gather information regarding the oppor- 
tunities for employment, and to furnish information to those seek- 
ing or desiring employment. In other words, it brings together 



il 



\ 






;■■} 



110 



Minutes of Public Heakings. 



those requiring help, and those who require work or need work, 
but the facilities for performing the duties imposed upon the 
bureau have been so limited that it has not been able to do anything 
in that particular. 

Q. What does that bureau do ? A. I think the best answer 1 
can give is to file with the Commission a copy of the report ; that 
will answer the question far better than I can, Mr. Elkus. I don't 
devote much of my own time to that work. 

Q. As I understand it they assure to every alien a hearing in a 
language which he will understand ? A. Yes. 

Q. They obtain the enforcement of existing laws designed to 
prevent crime, fraud and exploitation ; they undertake studies and 
investigations of living and labor conditions and they distribute 
information. Those are the four things which they say they do. 
lN"ow, of course the first, giving every alien a hearing, that is un- 
dertaken, is it not, by the district attorney and all of the local 
authorities in the different cities and parts of the State ? A. Yes, 
but Mr. Elkus, the trouble is this: That these ijo^orant aliens, I 
mean those who are ignorant of our language, know absolutely 
nothing about our customs, nor do they know anything about our 
government. 

Q. I know, but this bureau does not teach them American 
customs? A. Well, it aims to furnish them with information, I 
think, that you will find reference there to the distribution of 
information through the medium of certain agencies at Ellis 
Island. 

Q. What do the investigators do in that department? T see 
in this book there are a number of special investigators ? A. They 
investigate complaints that are received and investigate conditions 
generally that are subject to the jurisdiction of that bureau. 

Q. Do you believe this bureau does perform any useful func- 
tion ? A. I certainly do. 

Q. That could not be performed by local authorities? A. I 
certainly do. 

Commissioner Dkeier: The local authorities have never paid 
any attention to the immigrants, and I think you know that as 
well as anybody else. 



Jjv 



f 



John Williams. 



Ill 



Mr. Elkus : Yes, but I don't see what this department does. 
I am very anxious to protect the immigrant; I don't see what it 
does. 

Commissioner Deeier : It sees wages are paid. 

Mr. Elkus : Local authorities will take care of that. 

Commissioner Dreiee : They will not do that ; local authori- 
ties use immigrants exactly as other people use them, for their 
own convenience and exploitation. 

l>y Mr. Elicus: 

Q. Now, take your other department, the division of industrial 
directory. What is that for? A. The division of industrial 
aircctoiy is provided for in sec^tion 49. The duty is imposed upon 
the Commissioner of Labor to prepare annually an industrial 
directory for all cities and villages having a population of 1,000 
or more, according to the last preceding Federal census or 

enumeration. 

Q. Under that provision you are required to get information 
r^arding opportunities and advantages for manufacturers? A. 

Yes. 

Q. Have you published any bulletin ? A. I have not. 

Q. That bureau has just been created? A. Yes. 

Q. How many people are in that bureau ? A. At the present 

time there are two. 

Q. That is for the purpose of attracting manufacturers to the 
cities of the State? A. That in part I think is true, but the 
main purpose, as I understand it, is to endeavor to prevent con- 
gestion in our large centers of population. 

Q. You are also required, I see here, really to prepare a 
directory of manufacturing establishments ? A. Exactly, and we 
prepare and survey every community, covering the number of 
factories, hours of labor, housing conditions, railroad and wat«r 
connections, water powers, natural resources, wages and such other 
data regarding social economics and industrial conditions as in 
the judgment of the Commissioner will be of value to prospective 
manufacturers and their employees. The charter of that division 
is a very broad one, and T must say this, that I feel that that 



1 i 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



n 



will, it* we are furuislied with a sufficient appropriation, that it 
will supply a long felt want I know whereof 1 speak on that 
subject, because we have frequent requests for information con- 
cerning the manufacturing establishments in this State. 

Q. Now, couldn't that bureau, Mr. Commissioner, and your 
getting information for factory inspection purposes work together ? 
A. Oh, yes, we are now availing ourselves of the records of factory 
inspection in the preparation of material for the industrial 
directory. 

Q. Have you anything further you would like to say about 
inspection in any of these other departments I have touched upon. 
If not, I will take up next the question of child labor a little 
more in detail. Do you favor raising the age limit for children ? 
A. 1 hardly think it is necessary. 

Q. Would you favor any legislation as to children between the 
ages of sixteen and eighteen? A. You have now in mind the 
provision of continuation schools ? 

Q. Yes. A. I think it would be very helpful if provision were 
made for continuation schools applicable to children, to all children 
over fourteen who leave the day school to engage in employment. 

Q. Until what age? A. Fntil eighteen. 

Q. Would you make it compulsory? A. Well, to be of any 
benefit at all, I think that is the only course to take. 

Q. A'ow, with reference to the employment certificates which 
are given children who are fourteen years of age upwards, there 
is not a uniform certificate furnished by the different local 
authorities, is there, throughout the State? A. I think not; it is 
not exactly uniform. 

Q. Would you favor a uniform one issued by the Labor Depart- 
ment ? A. W^hy, so far as the Department is concerned, we would 
be perfectly willing to furnish the certificate for the purpose of 
securing uniformity; it would be advisable. 

Q. Do you think it is necessary or advisable to have a unifonn 
record? A. I don't think that the uniform certificate is at all 
essential so long as the requirements of law governing the issuance 
of certificates is properly observed. 

Q. Ts the law uniformly applied, or don't you find from the 
Certificates that you receive thnt the law is differently constnied, 



John WrLLiAMS. 



113 



/ 



and dili'erently applied in different parts of the State? A. We 
cannot tell that from the certificates, Mr. Elkus, but we gather 
that frequently from information that reaches us through indirect 
sources. 

Q. You mean that the different officials don't apply the same 
standards? A. Precisely. 

Q. Now, what remedy is there for that; should there be a 
standard of height and weight prescribed by the law, for instance, 
of children, before they are permitted to go to work, or should 
you not have any standard or should it be left to the discretion 
of the official who examines, or how would you provide for it'^ 
A. I am in doubt as to the advisability of prescribing any definite 
standard of height and weight, for we know very well that certain 
races differ from others as to the average height and weight. 
Take the Italians; as a race, they are short and their . children 
while fairly well developed, ordinarily they are very short and 
it would frequently cause trouble if a definite standard of height 
was established. 

By Commissioner Gompers : 

Q. Commissioner, you would favor a physical examination 
before minors may be permitted to work in the industrial estab- 
lishments? A. Yes, sir. 

Q, As covered by the law? A. Yes, and provision has been 
made for that ; we have it now in the law. 

Q. The question asked I intended to follow by this question: 
W^hat do you think of the idea of requiring a physical examina- 
tion of all minors who may enter the field of work ? 

Mr. Elkus : That is required by one of the laws passed. 

Q. I mean annual, an annual physical examination ? A. Let me 
understand, Mr. Gompers. You mean that a child should be 
subjected to a physical examination prior to securing a certificate, 
and then an annual examination? 

Q. Until it comes under the law and has the right to work as 
any adult may work ? A. That would mean from the 14th to the 
18th year. 

Q. Yes. An annual physical examination ? A. I am not pre- 
pared to say that is absolutely necessary, but I am perfectly will- 



114 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



ing to go on record as saying I think it would be a very helpful 
thing. 

Q. Of course, nothing is necessary except as time develops the 
need for the State to look after its wards, the children, the minors ? 
A. I was going to add that if such a provision was written in law, 
and strictly enforced, it would give us a continuous history, medi- 
cal history of the child from the time before it began to work, 
until it reached eighteen years of age. 

Q. That is just what I had in mind? A. It would undoubt- 
edly be of undoubted value in determining the effect of early 
labor upon the worker. 

Mr. Elkus: 

Q. The Legislature passed an act, the last Legislature, which 
was prepared and recommended by this Commission with refer- 
ence to the physical examination of children. That law is now in 
operation, is it not, Mr. Williams'^ A. Technically yes, actually, 
no. 

Q. What have you done towards bringing about its operation? 
A. I am endeavoring to work out a plan that will be satisfactory 
to all concerned ; I have had some conferences on the subject 

Q. Do you believe that that law should apply to mercantile 
establishments as well as factories? A. Whv not? 

Q. Does it apply now ? A. 'No. 

Q. Then you are in favor of amending that law ? A. Oh, yes, 
and yet I am rather inclined to think that in the larger cities 
we are going to get the records for the children who work in mer- 
cantile establishments, just as we will receive the records of the 
children that go to work in factories. 

Q. In other words, they will voluntarily comply with this law ? 
A. That is my expectation that they will not differentiate when 
granting the employment certificate. 

Q. This certificate would be the basis for the future examina- 
tion, very simple basis for the future examination which Mr. 
Gompers has asked about? A. It would furnish the basis for 
comparison, and would also furnish a basis for study of the de- 
velopment of the young. 

Q. Kow, even if you don't have this annual inspection are you 
in favor of your medical inspectors, if you have them, if they 



John Williams. 



115 



find a child is engaged in a dangerous occupation, or the appear- 
ance of the child shows its employment ought not to be continued, 
that they should have the power to order the dismissal of the 
child ? A. I was going to say that I believe that power should be 
conferred on our medical inspectors; it is now exercised by the 
British inspectors. 

Q. Now, certain occupations for children are prohibited by the 
present law? A. Yes; section 03, page 45. 

By Commissioner Dreieb: 

Q. Are there any others in which children ought to be pro- 
hibited from working? A. Yes, I have no doubt but that there 
are ; we are developing this from year to year. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Would it be better to add to these prohibited employments, 
or leave the power to a medical inspector? A. We tried that; 
we tried to have a clause in here under which we could prohibit 
the employment of a child in connection with any dangerous ma- 
chinery. The Senate in its wisdom saw fit to strike out the clause. 

Q. What is your opinion about it? A. I think it should be 
written in. 

Q. How many medical inspectors do you believe you would 
need for children; you would not need any special ones for this 
work? A. I think not; I think that we could train our field 
inspectors to bring to our attention certain cases of children, 
which seemed to require the attention of the medical inspector. 

Q. Then the medical inspector could make an examination? 
A. Exactly. 

Q. Now, with reference to the employment of children in can- 
nery sheds, under the decision of an Attorney-General of this 
State a cannery shed is not a factory, and therefore you have no 
jurisdiction; am I right about that? A. Unfortunately that is 
the situation. 

Bv the Chairman: 

ft.' 

Q. Can I ask right there, that was never passed upon? A. 
There is no decision in a court of record on the subject, but there 
are several decisions of our minor courts. 






I 



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116 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. What minor court ? A. Police courts, justices of the peace. 

Q. Whereabouts? A. I can't cite them oifhand. 

Q. The lowest court of record ? A. It is the lowest. 

Q. Now, those decisions, were they based upon the fact that a 
shed was not a factory or based upon a failure of proof on the 
part of the Department, to prove that the child was under four- 
teen years of age ? A. No failure of proof on our part in any of 
those cases. 

Q. 1 shouldn't have said the Department, a failure of proof 
whereby the jury found against you on some question of fact, or 
was the decision partly on the question that a shed in which the 
fruit or vegetables are canned with the aid of machinery was not 
a factory ? A. The sentiment of the community. 

Q. Just answer that question, because I want to ask you another 
one after that, was the question one of law or is it a question of 
fact ? A. A question of law ; that is to say as to the application. 

Q. Were there juries in those cases ? A. In some cases. 

Q. Did the judge charge the jury as a matter of law that the 
cannery shed was not a factory ? A. Oh, no. 

Q. What did he charge about then? A. Simply upheld the 
opinion of the Attorney-General. 

Q. That a cannery shed was not a factory ? A. Not a part of 

the factory. 

Q. In other words he did not leave it to the jury to decide at 
all then; they had to take the law from him and had to decide 
the way they did ? A. Let me say in some cases where we got to 
the jury, the jury declared not guilty on the grounds that the 
statute was unconstitutional. 

Q. Do you mean to say really that a jury brought in a verdict 
of that kind? A. Yes, sir; that that particular provision of the 
Labor Law was unconstitutional. 

Q. Which particular provision ? A. It was the cannery sec- 
tion ; of course, I trust you won't run me down to the minute de- 
tails because I do not recall them, but I remember this much, 
that that decision impressed me so, the joke of it, that I have 
never forgotten it. 

Q. How long ago was that ? A. Some years ago. 



John Williams 



117 






Q. When was the last case that you had upon the subject in 
court? A. I cannot tell you offhand. 

Q. Was it before or after the Attorney-GeneraFs opinion? 
A. It was after; I was not Commissioner at the time that he 
rendered that opinion. 

Q. Have you ever thought of bringing injunction proceedings, 
so as to raise this question in a court of record ? A. I have not. 

Q. Have you ever asked the present Attorney-General for an 
opinion on the subject? A. I have not. 

Q. Would it be improper to suggest to you that you might do 
so ? A. Not at all. 

Q. And that we bring up a test case on the subject by bringing 
injunction proceedings in a court of record? 

The Chairman: I really think, Commissioner, if you did 
that, it would be a great thing. I think you would win out in 
the courts, too, don't you, Mr. Elkus. 

Mr. Elkus: I do. 

Q. Why could not the people of the State of New York bring 
a suit in equity against some employer to prevent the employment, 
or compelling him, a mandatory injunction directing him to dis- 
charge somebody because he was employed illegally? 

The Chairman : That is a rather novel proceeding. 

Mr. Elkus: It is. 

Q. Couldn't you apply to the Grand Jury, and have him in- 
dicted ; you don't have to go in a police court ? A. Let me give 
you an illustration of our experience in that direction. 

Q. I know the sentiment in the locality against prohibiting 
this employment. 

The Chairman : I think perhaps the best proceeding would be 
the suggestion Mr. Elkus made a moment ago that you ask the 
Attorney-General now for an opinion ; if he should decide a shed 
is a factory within the meaning of the law, then you will prob- 
ably get some judge in the trial of the case to charge th< jury as 
I matter of law that this is a part of the Factory Law. 



118 



Minutes of I^BLir Hearings. 



By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How do you have a jury in die police court? A. These 
courts are courts of special sessions. 

Q. Even in a court of special sessions, they have no jury? A. 
Oh, yes; trial by jury. Let me say that the sentiment of the local 
communities is against the department in its attempt to enforce 
the law against the canneries, whether it be the employment of 
children, or the employment of women for more than sixty hours 
a week. We took a case in Oneida county to the Grand Jury, 
where we had clear and conclusive evidence that two young women 
not over eighteen years of age had been required or permitted 
to work for eighty hours; it goes to the Grand Jury; no dispute , 
about the evidence; it was clear and conclusive, but the Grancf 
Jury was a farmer Grand Jury ; no bill. We took another case 
against the cannery in Oneida county, and they demanded a jury 
trial. We endeavored to secure a jury of men qualified to serve; 
every man qualified to serve as a juror in that town was called, 
and every mother's son admitted bias and disqualified himself. 

Q. Why didn't you have the case removed and tried in some 
other county ? A. In the city of Oneida, a city not a farming 
community, we endeavored to prosecute and to convict a canning 
concern there for violation of the law. The entire community was 
against us. We could no more secure a conviction than we could 
fly over the hills. 

Q. Is the sentiment of the community against it because the 
law is wrong ? A. No, because their sympathy is with the canning 
industry. 

By Commissioner Gompers: 

Q. From which class of citizens are the jurors generally 
drawn? A. From all classes of citizens. Let me tell you, Mr. 
Gompers, that in Oneida, the labor men are against us, in the 
attempt to enforce the law. 

Bv Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Well, is the law a good law in your opinion, or not ? A. It 
is a good law, I have always said so, and I will endeavor to en- 
force it. 



John Williams. 



119 



By Commissioner Gompers: 

Q. Is it not possible to obtain change of venue? A. I think 
not in these minor cases; I have never heard it done, never at- 
tempted it. 

By Commissioner Hamilton: 

Q. You don't think the cannery sheds should be placed under 
the same construction as a factory of some other kind ? For in- 
stance, we were talking of foundries last night, where no men work 
in the core room ; you don't think that the work in the open air 
of the cannery sheds is detrimental to health, as is the work in 
the foundry? A. Oh, no, of course, it is not in the same cate- 
gory. At the same time, these persons brought in to work in the 
sheds are subject to factory regulations, and I don't see that it 
should make any difference whether the building is enclosed on all 
four sides, or on just two sides, or not, or on one side, with a roof 
over it, that you should make any difference between that and the 
building that is enclosed. 

Q. The fact that the time of the year in. which this work is 
going forward seems to me should make quite a difference. I 
can see possibly because I am from a farming country, and know 
possibly something about these cannery conditions. In a factory 
where any sort of business is going on the year round, they can 
have enough workmen to continue the work. In a canning 
factory they are naturally located in a country where they have 
not a large population to draw on, and they must do all their 
work in a very short time. They cannot get enough people to 
work short hours, and still complete the work. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How long do the women and children work in these fac- 
tories, what hours? A. Oh, they are variable according to the 
climatic conditions ; if the weather is very warm, the crops ripen- 
ing rapidly, the supply is brought in in a rush and they work 
inordinately long hours. 

Q. What, eighteen hours ? A. They have been known to work 
twenty hours at a stretch. 

Q. Women and children? A. I don't say that with reference 
to children. 



120 



Minutes of Publio Heartnos. 



John Williams. 



121 



Q. How young are the children employed in these canneries ? 
A. Our inspectors have seen them working in the shed as young 
as five and six years of age. 

Q. Have you ever tried to get a test case on a child working 
who was five or six years of age in a cannery ? A. I don't re- 
member that we have ever tried to get a case of a child quite as 
young as that, but we have endeavored to take cases of children 
ten years of age. I don't see that the age makes much difference 
really, but we cannot get anywhere with them. 

Q. Will you at the suggestion of the Commission submit the 
matter to the present Attorney-General, and ask him for his 
opinion on the subject ? A. Before 1 answer that, may I ask a 
question? Let us suppose that I request an opinion from 
Attorney-General Carmody, and I receive the contrary opinion to 
that expressed by former Attorney-General Mayer, and acting 
under the opinion of Mr. C^armody I attempted to enforce the 
law, and ran up against the snag just as before, the justice and 
the jury, and they say all this is a case of difference of opinion 
between two men. We are at liberty to take whichever we choose, 
irow would such a situation affect any attempt to amend the law 
so as to clearly include the sheds next winter? 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Couldn't you get to the higher court by an appeal ? 

Mr. Elkus : The people cannot appeal ; only the defendant ; 
you can appeal from a judgment sustaining a demurrer to an 
indictment. The people may appeal in that case. I think, Com- 
missioner, if I may answer your question, if you get an opinion 
from the present Attorney-General which is contrary to the former 
opinion and you attempt to enforce the law, you are doing your 
duty, and that is all. If the opinion of the Attorney-General is 
contrary to the former one, it is up to the Attorney-General to 
help you enforce the law, and to find some means of enforcing it 
other than through the channel which has heretofore proven un- 
successful. N^ow, if you cannot enforce it, it is up to the Legis- 
lature. You report the facts to the Legislature and it is up to 
them to say whether they ought to repeal the law as it stands 
now, because it is contrary to public policy, or enact some other 



means of enforcing it ? A. Well, I am satisfied that we are going 
to fail to enforce it, and my judgment is that the only course to 
pursue is to go to the Legislature to have it amended so as to 
overcome the difficulty. 

Q. If the law is unpopular, it is impossible of enforcement; 
no amendment is going to make it popular? A. No, but it will 
make it impossible for a judge to throw us out of court. 

Q. You mean a law saying a cannery shed is a factory? A. 
Yes. 

Q. That would not prevent your inability to get a jury that 
was qualified ; that would not prevent a grand jury from throwing 
out the indictment? A. On the other hand I think if the law 
were amended so as to explicitly state that a shed is a part of the 
factory, that we could deal with the Child Labor question without 
any trouble. 

Mr. Elkus : If the Attorney-General of New York State gives 
a formal opinion in which he finds that a cannery shed is a fac- 
tory, and that it comes within the law, and then a justice of the 
peace charges a jury contrary to that, that justice of the peace 
might be liable to removal. 

The Witness : I am glad to hear that view expressed. What 
would you think, Mr. Elkus, of a police magistrate who accepted 
a plea of guilty in his court, and deliberately turned around and 
dismissed the charge ? 

Mr. Elkus: You ask my opinion? 

The Witness: Yes. 

Mr. Elkus : That man is subject to removal. 

The Witness: I have a case like that in my hands at the 
present moment. 

Mr. Elkus: Of course a magistrate has a right to suspend 
sentence. 

The Witness : That is where he fell into the hole ; he should 
have suspended sentence. Does the Commission expect to hold 
sessions in Rochester? 



122 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



John Williams. 



123 



Mr. Elkus : No, we are going to Buffalo. 

The Witness : I mean are you going to at any time ? 

Mr. Elkus : Oh, yes. 

The Witness: It might be very interesting to call Judge 
Chatsie before you, and inquire as to that case; I would like to 
be there. 

Q. Was that a cannery case? A. I^o, that was a mercantile 
case. 

By Commissioner Gompees; 

Q. I would like to inquire for the record, more than for my 
own personal information which I think I have, your own con- 
nection with the Bureau of Labor and the present Department of 
Lal)or of the State of New York ; will you relate it, sir ? A. Very 
gladly, sir. In 1899 I was appointed chief factory inspector by 
the then Governor, Theodore Roosevelt. In 1901 Governor Odell 
recommended the consolidation of the three branches of govern- 
ment then devoted to the interest of labor, viz. : the Bureau of 
Labor Statistics, the Department of Factory Inspection, and 
Board of Mediation and Arbitration. Upon the reorganization, 
after consolidation, I was appointed First Deputy Commissioner, 
and Chief Factory Inspector. I served in that capacity until 
October 3, 1907, when my predecessor in office, Mr. P. Tecumseh 
Sherman, resigned and Governor Hughes appointed me Commis- 
sioner. On the expiration of that term I was reappointed by 
Governor Hughes, and am serving that term at the present time. 
Q. Your term, is it continuous or for any specific period ? A. 
Four year term. 

Q. When does your term expire? A. Technicallv at midnigfit 
December 31, 1912. 

Q. And you remain in office until your successor is appointed 
and confirmed? A. Yes. 

Q. And your immediate subordinates in the various bureaus 
and department, who are they ? A. First Deputy and Chief Fac- 
tory Inspector, Mr. John S. Whalen, of Rochester, Second Deputy 
Commissioner and Chief Mediator is Mr. William C. Rogers, also 
a resident and voter in Rochester. 



Q. Did you follow any trade or occupation or profession before 
you became connected with the Bureau and Department? A. I 
did. 

Q. Please state it ? A. Carpenter by occupation. 

Q. How many years were you working at the carpenter trade ? 
A. Eighteen years. 

Q. Were you a member of any organization of carpenters ? A. 
Member of the United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of 
America. 

Q. Were you ever entrusted with the responsibility of those 
in that organization ? A. I was. 

Q. State it ? A. In 1894 I was elected a member of the general 
executive board at the convention held in Indianapolis, Indiana. 
In 1898 at the convention held in New York city, I was elected 
general president of the United Brotherhood of Carpenters. 

Q. That is the organization covering the continent of America ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you have any previous experience in the local organiza- 
tions of carpenters ? A. I was for a time very active in the local 
organization of carpenters in my home city of Utica. 

Q. Did these responsible offices in the organizations of labor 
give you opportunities for adminstrative and detailed work? 
A. They did. 

Q. Are you a college graduate ? A. I am not. 

Q. A graduate from any technical school or college of tech- 
nology? A. I am not; may I add that I left school when I was 
twelve and one-half years of age. 

Q. So far as you know, your administration of the various 
offices which you filled in connection with the bureau has given 
fairly good satisfaction? A. I am not conscious that the reverse 
is the case. 

Q. The purpose of my questioning you, Commissioner, is to 
ascertain whether a man can occupy a responsible position at the 
head of a bureau or department such as this, without necessarily 
having a knowledge of education or an education in a school or 
college of technology; that the practical man of observation, the 
man who has done things in his life, is capable of administering 
an important branch of the government of the State of New York ? 



124 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



John Williams. 



125 



I '; 



^, 



) 






' I 






i 



If 



A. I appreciate very much the way in which jou stated that, and 
so far as I ani concerned, I am content to let the record speak for 
itself. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Did you ever pass a civil service examination i A. I never 
did, no, sir. 

Q. Did you ever take a civil service examination i A. I never 
did. 

Bv Mr. Elkus: 

«> 

Q. Commissioner, with reference to the employees in your De- 
partment, the inspectors, is it your opinion that they ought to have 
better pay, not only better pay, now, to get better men, but they 
should have the chance of promotion for efficiency of work, and 
increasing pay for efficiency of work in the way of promotion ? 
A. That is the only basis, Mr. Elkus, upon which I would recom- 
mend promotions, increases in salary. I am opposed to the idea 
that a person should automatically receive increases of salary by 
virtue of long service. 

Q. You are in favor though of increased pay for work well 
done? A. I am. 

Q. And have you power enough now to give increased pay for 
work well done in the Department? A. I have no power except 
as the L^slature provides appropriations and such promotions as 
are made are subject to civil service regulations. 

Q. Do you believe you should have civil service regulations as 
to promotions, or should you be given authority to increase a 
man's pay or have grades changed so as to give promotion with 
an increased pay? Don't you think if you did that you would 
get better service and better men, and then you would not have 
to give pensions? A. To avoid the necessity of pensions, if that 
subject is to be considered, I think the salaries would have to be 
very high. I have long since felt that the Department was paying 
inadequate salaries. The salaries of our inspectors are fixed ; the 
minimum is fixed at $1,200 per annum, the same as they wero 
receiving fifteen and eighteen years ago. We all know that the 
cost of living has increased tremendously in that period, but the 
g^laries of our inspectors have remained stationary. 



Q. Well, suppose you began them at $1,200 as you do now, 
why couldn't you have grades of increase for efficiency in service 
to $1,400, $1,600, $1,800 and even $2,000 a year; wouldn't that 
attract a better class of men? A. I think that what I said 
yesterday emphasizes my view on that point ; 1 do believe in that. 

By Commissioner Hamilton: 

Q. Don't you think that if the Commissioner were empowered 
to order these promotions, in his judgment, that it would tend 
better to carry out his policy, he being the responsible head of the 
Department ? A. Senator, I am going to answer that in this way : 
If the head of the Department, any department of government, is 
permitted an absolutely free hand to make these promotions, to 
give these increases, and is in a position to tell every outside 
interest, mind your own business, he can get better results. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. In other words, if you could run this Department like a 
business man runs his business? A. Yes, sir; I make that 
statement without hesitation and without qualification. 

Commissioner Hamilton: I agree with you on that. I am 
not very strong for the pension idea in an occupation where the 
eniph>yees are not risking their own lives or limbs to save some 
one else's life or property, but I think they should be paid a 
proper or reasonable salary and wage for their work during their 
working time. 

The Witness: Speakjing upon that subject yesterday, we 
touched the matter of the employment of a number of veterans. 
I want this Commission to understand what I have repeatedly 
said, and what I am going to say now for the record that I believe 
wo should have some plan or system or method whereby those 
men can be retired from the service, without subjecting the 
official, the head of the department, to the necessity of preferring 
charges of physical incompetency against them. It is not a very 
pleasant thing for a man to find himself in that position where 
he has got to charge an old man, who has risked his life for the 
country and who has to the limit of his strength and ability 
rendered conscientious service, it is not right that the head of 



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the department should be compelled to prefer charges against him 
in order to get rid of him. The State if it has adopted the policy, 
and it has, of protecting these men, should provide for their 
retirement from the sei-vice at a certain time under some system 
of pensioning. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. The same thing is true now of the Spanish War veterans ? 
A. Yes, sir. Of course we don't suffer from that group because 
comparatively speaking they are young men. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Are there many of them '( A. Not many. 
Q. They will grow every year, I suppose? A. Yes, but that 
is really a serious problem. What are you going to do with vet- 
erans. I have one case where I had simply to do that. 1 simply 
sent for the man and told him so and so is the case; '' I regret 
to say it, but I have got to take some steps to change the situation 
unless you are willing to resign." He resigned. 

Q. Commissioner, last evening the Conamission heard a num- 
ber of foundrymen who came before us with reference to the 
foundry bill which passed the Senate this year, but failed in the 
Assembly. You have examined that bill, haven't you ? A. With 
the bill that was first introduced I had something to do. 

Q. I mean the Smith- Wagner bill? A. The provisions were 
substantially the same; I drafted the first bill myself. 

Q. You are in favor of the enactment of that bill ? A. I am. 
Q. Have you any suggestions or changes to make in it in view 
of the discussion that took place in the Assembly ? A. I did not 
hear the discussion, Mr. Elkus. 

Q. Well, the objection that was made to the bill by those who 
opposed it was that it would injure the small foundrymen? A. 
Drive out of existence some of the smaller concerns. I had a talk 
with one Assemblyman who opposed the bill, and that was the 
reason he assigned for his opposition. 

Q. But these men said last night it would cost fifty dollars, I 
think, to comply with the law; that was the outside charge; of 
course, if that is so, it would not drive any man out of business ? 



A. Well, I don't think the question of the safety of human life 
or limb should be placed in the balance against dollars and cents 

at any time. 

Q. Is there anything from your investigation of the subject, 
to the claim that it would drive the small foundryman out of 
business? A. As I understand it the bill was restricted in its 
application to the concerns employing five or more men. 

Q. But they said the small foundryman employed five men':: 
A. Personally I don't think there is any reason for exempting the 
small men from the operation of any reasonable statute, and I 
considered that a reasonable statute. 

Q. Are you in favor of the employment of women in foundries ? 

A. I am not. 

Q. Do you know how many women are employed in foundries 
in the State ? A. I cannot tell you offhand, but I assume we have 

the statistics. 

Q. Can you let me have them, and also a statement of their 
earnings ? It was stated last night in some foundries in the State 
they intend to put in women; the International Harvester Com- 
pany at Auburn; did you hear that? A. I heard a rumor but 
I was going to say we cannot give you anything on the subject 

of wages paid. 

Q. You cannot? A. No. 

Q. Now, with reference to the employment of women gen- 
erally are you in favor of the closing time being fixed ? A. I am 

decidedly. 

Q. You would favor the enactment of such a law ? A. I would, 
I am speaking now from an administrative standpoint. 

Q. Well, of course, it is practically impossible to enforce a 
general law prescribing so many hours a week unless you have a 
closing time ? A. Exactly. 

Q. Has the new fifty-four hour law gone into effect? A. On 

October 1st it becomes effective. 

Q. The same difficulties will arise as to that as the present law. 
What are the difficulties of enforcing the law which simply pro- 
vides no women shall be permitted to work more than a certain 
number of hours a week? A. The chief difficulty, and I may 
almost say the only difficulty, lies in the fact that we cannot get 



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competent testimony except in the case where the victims are 
mlhng to come to the front and testify. I think that that sums 
up the whole difficulty. We cannot get local evidence unless 
some^woman or women who have been e^loited are willing to 

of iJtr'^ ^T "^"l '**'" •"'"" "^ '""'^■''^ '^' enforcement 

i tourT rf zr^*^^^' "'^^ ^'^ ^'-'"'^ '- « «'- 

liams?"^ A.Tam.""" "''' *'' "" "' ^'^ ^^^^'^ ^^^^^ ^^'l' 

Q. Have you anything to say about that ca^e? A. That case 

ordy held unconstitutional that portion of the section which pro 

hibited women from working between the hou« of 9 p. m and 

Q. On the ground that it infringes on their ability to work ? 
A. It :s a contract and as I undei^tand it the question of the 
constuutionahty of the limitation upon the hours of labor was not 
touched upon at all in that decision. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. What was the unconstitutional feature of it ? A. The mc^ 
hibition of night work. '^ 

tional ^^' ^ ""''^'■'*'''"^ '^"* ''*''*'^** ^«« declared unconstitu- 

Mr. Ei.KDs: It was put on the ground that a woman had a 
nght to contract to work any time she pleased, and to interfere 
with her liberty — 

The Chairman : That affects that point. 

The Witness : But does not aff«,t the sixty-hour limit at all 
only the right to determine what period of the twenty-four she 
elected to work. I think that the Commission if it pix>poses to 
recommend any limitation must find a health basis for its recom- 
mendation. 

Q. Well, the statute was hardly drawn properly; I think the 
court said, it did not say it was done for the purpose of protecting 
the health of the women. ^ 



Commissioner Phillips: Not merely a means for enforcing 
another health law. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Have you any changes to suggest in the fifty-four hour 
law? A. No. 

The Chairman: I have, and I think you have, Commis- 
sioner. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. You do not approve of the cannery provision, as it is now ? 
A. With our experience in attempting to enforce a sixty-hour 
limit, I do decidedly. We are utterly unable to enforce a re- 
striction that was more liberal than the one that is now placed 
upon the statutes. We tried repeatedly in different sections of 
the State, and it resulted in failure every time, and reduced the 
department and its efforts to a farce, and made for contempt 
of the law in those communities wherever we failed to enforce it 
against the canneries. I believe it is better for the State to say 
frankly that it will not enforce, than to nominally say that the 
law applies, and be unable to do anything. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. The present law allows children over 16 to work twenty- 
four hours a day in canneries if they are physically able to, 
doesn't it? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, do you think that in this progressive age that is a 
proper law to have in this great State of New York? 

Commissioner Jackson : I think. Senator, you should give a 
little more attention to the character of the work and the sur- 
roundings. 

The Chairman: I don't care what the character of the work 
is. I don't think there ought to be a law on the statute book 
which permits children and girls between 16 and 18 to be em- 
ployed for twenty-four hours a day, and I never cast a vote for 
a bill with such great regret as I did for that bill. It was only 

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because I feared we would not get any legislation that I finally 
stood for the bill at all. 

The Witness : Let me say, if your Commission can devise a 
new judicial procedure under which we can enforce restriction, 
under which we may be able to avoid the difficulties that we have 
encountered, I will say Amen to all you have said. If you cannot, 
I am going to say what I have already said, if we cannot enforce 
the law it is better not to have that law. 

By Commissioner Phillips: 

Q. Laying aside the consideration of particular industries, 
and looking at industries as a whole, does the fact that some em- 
ployers will violate wilfully the Fifty-four Hour Law and that 
you cannot get evidence to convict them indicate that employers 
generally are refusing to obey a Fifty-four Hour Law? As a 
matter of fact, won't employers as a class rearrange their business 
and comply with the Fifty-four Hour Law though a few may 
violate it, and won't the passage of the law cause a change of 
conduct on the part of the employers as a class? A. Oh, yes, 
undoubtedly. 

Q. The mere fact that you cannot get convictions does not 
mean the law is not in a general way being enforced ? A. Being 
observed; that is true; I don't anticipate very much difficulty in 
the enforcement of the Fifty-four Hour Law. The manufac- 
turers of the State seem to have accepted it with reluctance, of 
course, and yet with pretty good grace, it seems to me. 

By Commissioner Gompers: 

Q. Suppose there was a law enacted providing for the issuance 
of a license to employers of labor, who employed minors, and that 
no license be issued to any one who shall fail to comply with the 
law, or that the license might be revoked if the employer vio- 
lated the law ? A. You mean by that, Mr. Gompers, the granting 
of a license on the payment of a fee ? 

Q. Not necessarily, or if a fee at all, so nominal as to make it 
practically nil. That is any employer now doing business, or 
one contemplating entering into business, in which minors shall 



i 



be employed, shall be required to obtain a license from some con- 
stituted authority. 

Commissioner Phillips: Then some one could restrain the 
fellow from granting the license there and in that way bring the 
question into court 

Mr. Elkus : I think you could devise a method. 

The Chairman : I think if violations are really going on to 
any extent, the way to enforce it is to have inspectors on the job 
all the time, and keep pounding and pounding, bring one case 
after the other, and they will very soon find a change. 

By Commissioner Phillips : 

Q. Canneries come within the Fifty-four Hour Law during 
the winter, don't they ? A. Yes. 

By Commissioner Dreier: 

Q. I want to ask Commissioner Williams whether he didn't 
think we ought to include the mercantile establishments ? A. I 
think the Commission should take into consideration the situa- 
tion in our mercantile establishments in the large cities, and I 
think it might be very important for the Commiission to consider 
that subject in Greater New York. 

Q. We know that in the smaller towns women are employed 
and girls are employed for long hours? A. Yes; but. Miss 
Dreier, the conditions under which they work are so totally dif- 
ferent that there is no comparison. 

Q. I think that is true. There is no comparison except that 
any excessive toil, where they are standing around ten hours or 
longer a day is injurious. A. Yes, but in mercantile estab- 
lishments in small places, they are sitting around crocheting, while 
waiting for customers to come. I must confess in my mind that 
that kind of employment is not very burdensome, ev^en though the 
hours may seem long. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Did you examine the bill which was prepared by the Com- 
mission in relation to seats in factories for female employees? 
A. I did. 



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Q. Are you in favor of that bill ? A. I certainly am. 

Q. Have you any suggestions or changes to make in it ? A. I 
think that it might be well to change the location of this section 
in the law. It is sandwiched in as it now appears between the 
law relating to hours of labor in brick yards — 

Q. It should not be section 17, but some other section ? A. Yes. 

Q. But as to the substance of the law you have no suggestion to 
make ? A. No, I think it is a very good law as it now stands. 

By Commissioner Dreier: 

Q. May I ask another question with reference to the super- 
vising inspectors which have been appointed; there has been a 
discussion here as to the value of the civil service connected with 
it. Will you state what the qualifications are you require in 
those you appoint? A. Well, have you seen notes of the exami- 
nation of the Civil Service examination ? 

Q. I have not. 

Mr. Elkus : We have it here. 

A. The qualifications are stated in that, call for the examina- 
tion for supervising inspectors; those qualifications are worked 
up by the chief examiner with my co-operation. 

Q. You did appoint individuals? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you have to meet those requirements? A. Substan- 
tially. 

Q. I understood one of them was a janitor. I just wanted to 
ask you because I do not know. A. I really don't know whether 
he was a janitor or not. I have read that same statement in 
some of the publications in New York. I have no knowledge as 
to that, but I know this, that the recommendations that came to 
me indicate that he was a man of wide experience in matters re- 
lating to real estate and factory properties in New York. He 
was connected with a real estate concern, and this concern spoke 
most highly of him in that connection ; whether he was ever a 
janitor or not, I do not know. 

Q. I had an idea that those supervising inspectors were those 
who supervised the inspections ; now, what is his value as a man 
who knows real estate, and knowledge of factory buildings? 
A. And conditions in factory buildings ; I think there is an es- 



JoHN Williams. 



133 



sential qualification. If our inspector in visiting premises ob- 
serves conditions that require certain remedies, his knowledge of 
construction, structural questions, would enable him to determine 
whether or not the judgment of the inspector was good; whether 
the Department ought to enforce or modify or change the order 

in some respects. 

Q. In your opinion, is it more desirable to have a civil service 
examination ? A. I think we can by means of civil service exam- 
inations secure the very best materials. On the other hand, I will 
say this, that I would be able to go out into the world and pick men 
for certain things and secure equally satisfactory results, if not 
better than by means of a civil service examination. 

Q. Isn't the political pressure very strong in all departments 
always ? A. It is altogether too strong. 

Q. Now, how can you remedy that ? A. I don't know ; I think 
we will have to undertake to change human nature. It is a per- 
fectly natural thing in our present state of political organization, 
that politics shall enter into the selection of public officials. In 
the selection of subordinates I feel that the heads of departments 
ought to be free or comparatively free in the selection of all sub- 
ordinates that are not subject to civil service regulations. 

Q. Well, the civil service is supposed to do that, but does not 
always do it ? A. So far as this Department is concerned, it does. 
Where we are required to appoint from the civil service list, I 
think if you will examine the records of the Civil Service Com- 
mission you will find that the qualifications of the individual, as 
determined by the examination, and by our inquiry and examina- 
tion, the record of the man's history, that is standing, is what 
counts, and not political influence. 

Q. Isn't it true that any appointee ought to be able to take those 
examinations so there really is no objection — why shouldn't they 
be able to pass this examination, if they are really qualified ? A. 
You can readilv understand that there are many men who are 
well qualified to fill administrative positions, who could not pass a 
technical examination. 

Q. Why should that examination be so technical as to essen- 
tiallv make it too technical? A. You cannot make the examination 
fit the special abilities of certain individuals to meet certain tests in 



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your civil service examination. You have general tests applicable 
to all candidates for the position. I think it would be most unwise 
to provide for a special examination to meet the circumstances or 
conditions or capabilities of certain individuals. You would have 
a system of favoritism in the appointment of officials fully as bad 
as any. 

Q. No, but if technical knowledge were necessary, then the men 
ought to have to answer ; then I don't see why he shouldn't be able 
to study and pass that examination ; I don't see why you should not 
be able to get men if you need the technical men ; if you don't need 
them, why do you have an examination on technicalities ? I don't 
mean you personally ? A. I am speaking now of portions of the 
examinations that are technical. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Your bureau of mediation and arbitration conducted an 
investigation into the laundry workers strike? A. Twice. 

Q. Yes. A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Has that ever been published, the testimony taken ? A. No. 

Q. Will it be published ? A. I think not. 

Q. Can you get a copy of it ? A. You can. 

Q. Will you send it to me? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was a report published by the bureau? A. There was a 
report of the bureau immediately at the close of the inquiry; it 
was sent to the parties in dispute, and copies were published in the 
public press. Since then an analysis of the testimony was worked 
out and published. We will be very glad to furnish you with a 
copy of that. 

Q. And a copy of the record also ? A. Yes. 

Q. Is it possible, Commissioner, to make special rules for hours 
of labor of those who are engaged to occupations where hard 
physical labor is involved, such as standing by women, working 
in laundries, and things like that? A. You mean is it possible 
under the present law ? 

Q. Yes? A. No. 

Q. Will it be possible to enact a law which will give you the 
power to make rules ; do you think that would be advisable ? A. 
I think that would be treading on rather doubtful territory. 



/ 



John Williams. 



135 



Commissioner Dreibr: It would be from the point of health, 
very necessary I should think. 

The Witness: It would be very desirable. 

Q. What would you suggest with reference to it ? A. The only 
thing we suggested as a result of that inquiry was a definite limita- 
tion on the periods during which day work could be done. 

Q. You read the bill prepared by the Commission with reference 
to bakeries, licensing bakeries? A. I did. 

Q. Have you any suggestions or criticisms to make of that bill ? 
A. The only criticism I had in mind of that bill is the provision 
requiring a certificate from the Department of Health. I must 
confess that I could not quite catch the idea of the need of that 
certificate, especially if this Department were enabled and 
authorized to prescribe a sanitary standard or code. Here is the 
thing I had in mind : That the only requirement is an initial cer- 
tificate before a license could be granted by this Department; no 
provisions for further inspection, although provision was made 
for the annual renewal, as I recall it of the license. Now, it 
appears to me that it would be fully as effective to authorize this 
Department in view of the fact that it must inspect, to prescribe 
a sanitary code for bakeries and enforce it without any reference 
to any department of health. 

Q. Well, would you give the power to the Commissioner of 
Labor or your board of advisers to make a sanitary code for 
bakeries? A. If we were going to have a division of industrial 
hygiene. 

Q. Give it to them? A. Certainly. 

Q. Then this bill is satisfactory to you, and you approve of it 
with that one suggestion? A. It is very. 

Q. You would like the whole approval vested in your Depart- 
ment and leave out entirely the local boards of health ? A. I think 
that should be advisable. 

Q. Then you believe this law should be passed ? A. I do. 

Q. As to the other bills which were passed by the Legislature 
at the recommendation of the Commission, have you any sugges- 
tions as to them ? A. You mean the bills ? 

Q. That have become laws ; I will take up those that did not 



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become laws afterwards ? A. There is one thing, Mr. Elkiis, in 
regard to bill :1559. 

Q. What bill is that? A. Amending or enacting 83c; turn 
to page 40, subdivision 3. 

Q. Smoking in factories prohibited ? A. Yes. 
Q. Now, how did you come to place the enforcement of that 
provision in the State Law outside of Greater New York with 
the State Fire Marshal? 

Q. You think it should be the State Commissioner of Labor ? 
A. Well, you have the Commissioner of Labor enforcing every 
other subdivision. 

Q. I have forgotten the reason now, but I believe it had some- 
thing to do with the creation of the Fire Marshal. A. Yes ; but 
here is the situation ; the Fire Marshal to-day has eight inspectors, 
and they cannot scratch the surface. 

Q. Then you think that should be amended by making the 
enforcement of that law in your Department ? A. I think so. 
Q. But the law itself is a good one ? A. Oh, yes, decidedly. 
Q. How about any of the other bills; well, in the meantime 
until this law should be amended if it is to be amended your in- 
specters can report any violations of this law to the State Fire 
Marshal ? A. My idea is this, Mr. Elkus, that our inspectors in 
the various localities should report immediately to the chief of the 
fire department, who according to the Fire MarshaFs law are to 
act as his assistants ; I think that would be the quickest way to get 
results. 

Q. Now, you have examined the bills which the Governor 
vetoed, which were passed with reference to fire-escape and exits ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. I remember your writing a memorandum which you were 
kind enough to send me a copy of; was that the only criticism 
you had of the bill ? A. That was all. 

Q. Apparently a technical objection ? A. That is what I felt 
it to be. Regarding the bills relating to fire-escapes, I think it 
would be advisable for the Commission to get a copy of the speci- 
fications for fire-escapes from the State Fire Marshal, so that 
when that bill is enacted again, there shall be a complete agree- 
ment so far as requirements are concerned, technically and de- 



JoHN Williams. 



137 



I 



tailed requirements between the fire-escapes required to be built on 
factories, and the fire-escapes that the Fire Marshal requires shall 
be erected on buildings used for public purposes. There is a very 
definite reason for that suggestion. Under the present factory 
law, we issue orders for a certain type of fire-escape, as is on the 
extreme right (indicating) that model there, and the specifica- 
tions accompany the orders. The State Fire Marshal through 
his agents may visit the same community and find a building 
used for public purposes, such as a hall or theatre and require 
the erection of a fire-escape, different in type from one we ordered 
upon the factory, and there is at once a feeling that either the 
one side or the other is imposed upon by one or the other of the 
State Departments. 

Q. How can the conflict be avoided ? A. By framing the la 
in such a way that the State Fire Marshal and the Commissioner 
of Labor can come together and agree upon identical specifications. 

Q. Let me ask you this : The State Fire Marshal and you have 
both jurisdiction over factory buildings? A. Concurrent juris- 
diction. 

Q. Now, that is bound to create more or less conflict, now how 
can that be avoided? A. It can be avoided by simplifying and 
clarifying the provisions, and harmonizing the provisions of law 

so that the two officials can come together and agree upon a 
definite policy. 

Q. Well, who will enforce it then? A. The Commissioner of 
Labor will enforce any factory provisions that relate thereto 
under the Labor Law. 

Q. Have you any specific amendments of the law to be made, 
to carry out your suggestions? A. I shall be very glad to offer 
definite suggestions. 

Q. Will you prepare and submit them to me? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Will you also at the same time give me your definite criti- 
cisms of the bills that were passed by the Legislature and which 
the Governor vetoed? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And how they should be amended and improved ? A. Very 
glad to do so. 



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Q. Have you any suggestion to make as to accident prevention 
and legislation along those lines ? Did you see the bill introduced 
by Mr. Phillips ? A. Yes, sir, the Civic Federation Bill. 

Q. Yes; and also Mr. Phillips' bill amending section 81? A. 
Yes, it seems to me that is very important, either that section 81 
be amended as to confer upon us certain general powers to re- 
quire the proper safe-guarding and arrangement and placement 
of machinery so as to insure safety, or that you take a bill similar 
to the one introduced by Mr. Phillips for the Civic Federation and 
work out a safety code, covering the use of machinery. 

Q. Well, have you any suggestions to make, anything more 
definite than that now ? A. Not at this time. 

Q. Will you prepare them and send them to me ? A. I shall. 

Q. And at the same time I would like to have your views as to 
whether or not factories where poisonous fumes, materials or acids, 
gases and so forth are generated in process of manufacture, should 
be licensed ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And whether it is possible and how if it is possible to 
classify, designate or enumerate such factories, and whether vou 
would authorize the Commissioner of Labor to make rules regard- 
ing them, and what rules you would make ? A. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Elkus: I think that is all. 
By the Chairman : 

Q. Commissioner, is there now any standard in the law for 
the ventilation of factories ? A. l^o, sir, and we should have a 
standard. That is one of the important things, one of the import- 
ant questions that it seems to me the Commission should take up. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How would you approach getting a standard of ventilation 'i 
A. Well, there are a number of so-called experts and some would 
be experts on the subject of ventilation ; whether you could secure 
sufficient and satisfactory data or not — 

Q. We had several men before us, but nobody gave us any 
concrete information as to how you would get a standard; they 
all said you ought to have one? A. The truth is as T regard the 
situation, you will have to blaze the trail somewhat on that 
subject ; you will have to go ahead and try out. 



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John Williams. 



139 



Q. Have you any suggestions to make as to how we should 
get a standard of ventilation ? A. I believe the safe course is to 
adopt an alternative standard. 

Q. What do you mean by that? A. Taking a qualitative and 
a quantitative test for standard, standard of quality, quality of 
the air. 

Q. How would you measure that? A. There are several ways 
of measuring it, and the other would be the quantitative standard. 

Q. Assuming that you would have a qualitative and quantitative 
standard, how are you going to enforce it where conditions change 
every hour or every day in the factory ? A. You cannot enforce 
it so as to be in a position to guarantee an absolutely satisfactory 
condition at all times. 

Q. It comes right down to this: Supposing a man does not 
comply with your standard; how are you going to punish him 
for not doing so? A. Punish him criminally. 

Q. How are you going to prove it? A. By the testimony of 
expert witnesses who test the air. 

Q. He might say that was all right half an hour before the 
inspector was there, and it changed because he suddenly spilled 
some acid on the floor. 

The Chairman : Even if you could not absolutely enforce it 
in all cases certainly it would have a moral effect to have a standard 
upon the statutes. 

The Witness : It would give us the right to say " You must 
do something," and the law says you have got to do this. Speak- 
ing of enforcing the law requiring ventilation, we have enforced 
It as it is in a great many cases. There is one concern in New 
York to-day that spent $18,000 to comply with the orders of this 
Department on ventilation. That concern had a condition in 
one of its workrooms that was perhaps as shocking as anything 
that ever came under my notice. A standard of air purity 
adopted and enforced in England is nine parts COo in 10,000 
volumes of air. In one room in this particular factory our 
medical inspector found 80 parts of CO2 in 10^000 volumes or 
nine times more than the standard of purity adopted by the 
British inspectors. We issued an order requiring that concern 



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to install ventilation or means of ventilation, and to ventilate. 
One of the members of the concern came to see me at our New 
York office, and said our factory is all right; nothing the matter 
with it, and we are not going to pay any attention to your order. 
I said ^* I am very glad to have you tell me that that is your 
attitude." '" Well,'' he said, " What are you going to do about 
it." I said, " 1 am going to see if I cannot compel you to do 
something." '^ Well," he said, ^' You know our factory is all 
right." I turned around then and said, '' I know it is not all 
right. I know that you have in one room in your factory prob- 
ably as bad a condition so far as air purity is concerned as can 
be found in this State." " Well, have you got these reports in 
your possession ? " " Yes." "Are they public records ? " " Not 
necessarily, if you compel us to make them public, we will." He 
began to see the light, and he asked what he could do. I suggested 
that they change their system of lighting from gas to electricity; 
that would reduce their problem one-half. He said, " Will you 
give us time ? " I said, " Yes." They started in and they 
changed their lighting from gas to electricity, very largely reduc- 
ing their problem and then they put in a first-class system of 
ventilating by ducts and bringing the air from above the roof. 
The air was drawn into the basement and forced through heated 
coils so as to deliver the air at a proper temperature during the 
winter months. We tested the air in the same workroom under 
practically the same conditions as we found at the time the first 
test was made, and in that room where our medical inspector 
found 80 parts of COo in 10,000 of air, he found seven and eight 
parts. Now, we have done that, but we did it because the concern 
was afraid of the pu])lioity if we undertook to enforce the order. 
A large newspaper concern in New York city spent thousands of 
dollars upon our order, but we need a standard. 

At this point an adjournment w^as taken until Wednesday, ^fay 
29, 1912, at nine o'clock a. m., at Buffalo, New York. 



I 



MINUTES OF THE NEW YORK STATE FACTORY INVESTIGAT- 
ING COMMISSION, HELD IN THE CITY OF BUFFALO, ON 
THE 29th DAY OF MAY, 1912. 



Buffalo, N. Y., May 29, 1912. 



Present: 

Same as before. 



The Commission inspected the plant of the Buffalo Forge 
Works, Buffalo, New York, and the following testimony was 
taken at the plant of this company: 

Tony Tomashelski, called as a witness being duly sworn, 
testied as follows: 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. What is your name ? A. Tony Tomashelski. 

Q. How old are you? A. 23. 

Q. How long have you been in this country? A. Five years. 

Q. Where did you come from ? A. Russia. 

Q. What part of Russia? A. Plotz. 

Q. What did you do in Russia, what kind of work did you do 
in Russia ? A. Worked on the ground like a farmer. 

Q. How long have you been w^orking here in the Buffalo Forge 
Works? A. Five vears. 

Q. Have you been working at the sand blast all that time? 
A. Only worked now for a while. 

Q. How long have you been working in the sand room there? 
A. About three months. 

Q. What did you do before that? A. Before, working on 

emerv wheels. 

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Q. Where is the man who worked in the sand blast before you ; 
what was his name? A. I forget. 

Q. What has become of him, where is he? A. I don't know. 

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Q. How much do you get a week ? A. $10.20. 
Q. Are you married ? A. No. 

Q. How many hours do you work in that room every day? 
A. Two hours, an hour and a half or so, every day. 
Q. Only an hour and a half a day ? A. Yes. 
Q. What else do you do? A. Working on emery wheels. 
Q. Was the man who worked there before you — did he go 
away because he was sick? A. He has gone away. 
Q. Where is he? A. I don't know. 
Q. Does it hurt your eyes to work that sand blast ? A. No. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Wlien do you wash yourself? A. Never wash. 
Q. Don't you ever wash yourself; do you wait until you go 
home to wash yourself? A. Yes. 

By Commissioner Gompers : 

Q. Where do you live? A. Leoperre street. 

Q. What board do you pay? A. Three dollars. 

Q. For a room or for board ? A. $2.30 for living. 

Q. And $3 for board ? A. For board. 

Q. $5.30 a w^eek altogether? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Does anybody live with you in the same room? A. No, 
by myself. 

Q. What is the number of Leoperre street? A. 64. 

Q. Is that a private family ? A. No. 

Q. How many hours do you work a day in everything? A. 
Ten. 

Q. When you are not in the blast room what do you do ? A. 
On emery wheels. 

Q. Polishing? A. No, grinding. 

Q. How long do you remain in the sand blast room at a time? 
A. In there about three times a day. 

Q. I mean how long do you remain in the room without going 
out ? A. Fifteen minutes ; always got to get out. 

Q. Too much dust? A. Yes. 






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143 



Bj the Chairman: 

Q. Who tells when to get out or how long to stay in there? 
A. Nobody tell me; I get out myself. 

Q. You stay there as long as you like ? A. Yes. 

By Commissioner Gompers: 

Q. Where do you eat your lunch? A. In the carpenter shop. 
Q. Do you wash your hands before going to lunch? A. No. 



Buffalo, N. Y., May 29, 1912. 

The Commission also inspected the plant of the Pratt & Letch- 
worth Company, at which time the following testimony was 
taken : 

Amelia Par\vulska, called as a witness, and being duly 
sworn, testified as follows: 

Bv Mr. Elkus : 

t/ 

Q. Tell us your full name? A. Amelia Parwulska. 

Q. How old are you? A. I am twenty years old. 

Q. How long have you been working here? A. About over 
two years; I couldn't tell just exactly how much. 

Q. How long have you been working altogether? A. I used 
to work in a box factory since about fifteen years old. 

Q. Were you bom in this country? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Born in Buffalo? A. Born in Buffalo. 

Q. W^hat were you before you were a core maker; what did 
you do? A. I used to go to school; that is all. 

Q. Before you worked at this kind of work here? A. I used 
to work in a paper box factory. 

Q. Do you work by the day here or by the piece ? A. I work 
by the piece. 

Q. How much do you get? A. How much I earn? 

Q. How do you get paid, how many pieces have you got to 
make? A. We make a dollar and a half, a dollar seventy. 

Q. You work at cores ? A. Yes. 



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Q. You make the molds like this (indicating) ? A. Yes, if I 
make a hundred like this I get thirty-five cents, or twenty-five 
cents. 

Q. How much do you make a week? A. That's piece work, 
sometimes eight dollars, sometimes nine dollars and ten dollars. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. How many days have you lost during the last two years? 
A. I could not tell you. 

Q. About? A. I can't sav. 

Bv Mr. Elkus: 

Q. When do you start to work in the morning ? A. Ten o'clock. 

Q. What time do you stop ? A. Sometimes five o'clock, some- 
times a quarter after five ; sometimes half past. 

Q. What time do you have your lunch ? A. Half an hour. 

Q. Have you been away because of sickness ? A. ]N"o. 

Q. ISTever been sick? A. No, never been sick; I was sick 
before I started to work here, you know; I was working in a box 
factory, I fell downstairs. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Where do you eat your lunch ? A. Upstairs. 
By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Bring it with you ? A. I^o, I get it sent from home. 

Q. They bring it from home ? A. Yes. 

Q. How many girls are there here? A. Between fifty and 
sixty, I think, around now. 

Q. What are they, all Polish girls ? A. All Polish girls, but 
a good many of them can speak English. 

Q. Many of them bom in this country like you? A. Quite 
many. 

Q. Do they have to be trained to do this, or do they teach them 
here? A. Teach you here. 

Q. Is it very hard to learn ? A. Not very hard. 

Q. Have to stand all the time all day long ? A. Yes. 

Q. Are you bothered at all by the gas that comes out of the 
ovens ? A. Oh, no, I don't mind the gas. 



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John X 



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Q. Don't notice it any more ? A. When you get used to it you 
don't mind it at all. 

Q. Do you get sick ? A. No. 

Q. Your parents are Polish ? A. My parents are Polish, yes. 

Q. How long have they been in this country? A. About 
twenty-two or twenty-three years, something like that. 

Q. What does your father do ? A. My father works hera 

Q. Does your mother work ? A. No ; stays at home. 

Q. Have you got any brothers? A. Two brothers, four 
sisters; two married; two brothers home. 

Q. What is the highest wages you have earned? A. About 
eleven or twelve dollars. 

Q. What was the lowest ? A. The lowest seven dollars, seven 
dollars and a half. 

Q. How much did you earn last week? A. Over ten dollars, 
I couldn't just tell you. 

Q. What time do you stop on Saturday ? A. About 4 o'clock, 
half past 4. 

John X , called as a witness and being duly sworn, 

testified as follows: 

By the Chairman: 

Q. What is your name? A. John X . 

Q. Where do you live? A. Buffalo. 

Q. Are you married ? A. Yes. 

Q. How many children have you got ? A. Tw^o. 

Q. How long have you worked here? A. Five years. 

Q. Five years ? A. Five years in this place. 

Q. Always at this kind of work ? A. Yes. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. What country did you come from? A. The old country. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Where was your old country ? A. Russia, 

Q. When do you begin to work in the morning ? A. Half past 



SIX. 



Q. When do you stop ? A. Sometimes 7, sometimes 8. 
Q. How long for dinner? A. Thirty minutes. 



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Q. Where do you eat ? A. Right here. 

Q. Bring it with you ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Eat it right here? A. Yes. 

Q. How much money do you get ? A. Twenty cents an hour. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Do you get sick ? A. No, not sick. 

Q. Cold sometimes? A. Yes. 

Q. Does this woman (indicating) do the same work as you 
do? A. Only four days she works. 

Q. Does she get twenty cents an hour? A. No; $1 for ten 
hours. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. She works like you ? A. Pulling out cores and piling cores 
all day long. 

Q. What kind of work do you do, put the cores in the oven 'i 
A. Put them in. 

Q. You watch them? A. Yes. 

Q. Then you take them out ? A. Yes. 

Q. You stay here all day long ? A. Yes. 

Q. Very hot here? A. Yes. 

Q. Terrible hot ? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you get a little headache at times ? A. Have been sick. 

Q. Go right to bed then ? A. Yes. 

Q. What time do you go to bed at night? A. Four or ^ve 
hours sleeping. 

Q. Does your wife stay home or work ? A. Stay home. 
Q. With the children? A. Yes. 
Q. How old are the children ? A. Two small. 
Q. How many years? A. One 2 years, the one 1 years and 
a half. 



John Y 



testified as follows: 
By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. What is your name ? A. John Y 
Q. How old are you ? A. Nineteen, 



-, called as a witness and being duly sworn, 



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John Y 



147 



Q. Bom in this country? A. Yes, sir, State of Pennsylvania. 

Q. How long have you been in this factory? A. I worked 
here twice about eight months before, and the last time four 
months. 

Q. About a year? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Altogether? A. Yes, about, yes. 

Q. What do you do? A. Coremaker. 

Q. Piece or by the week ? A. Piece. 

Q. How much do you get ? A. Different sized cores, different 
prices, different cores. 

Q. How much do you make a week ? A. Average about three 
dollars a day. 

Q. What time do you start in the morning ? A. Seven o'clock 

Q. What time do you stop? A. Five. 

Q. How is it you get so much more money than the women ? 
A. We make bigger stuff and get bigger prices. 

Q. You get more money for the same kind of work? A. I 
don't see where we do. 

Q. They won't let you do women's work? A. No; there is a 
job the end fellow is making there now; on other jobs something 
similar to that; she got to send out too much work; she put a 
price on it at fifty cents a hundred. 

Q. The head of the women? A. Yes. 

Q. How much would you get for it? A. Should be worth 
seventy-five cents a hundred, or a cent a piece. 

Q. And they pay fifty cents to the women for it ? A. No ; we 
are getting fifty cents. 

Q. How much are they getting? A. Don't know; they never 
tell us. 

Q. They get about half as much? A. Yes. 

Q. You have to stand all day? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you mind the fumes that come from the oven ? A. Cer- 
tainly do; come in here in the winter time, when the wind is 
going different ways, it blows the smoke right in the window, 
and gets in your eyes, nose. 

Q. Do you get sick from it at all? A. You get a headache 
from it; the forelady you ought to ask her, she has a lot of 
headaches. 



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Q. She says she has never been sick a day in her life? A. 
She is crazy. 

Q. Do these girls go home sick? A. I can't tell you that; I 
never seen it. 

Q. What else is there about the job ? A. Some other jobs are 
too heavy for girls' work; you ought to go over there and feel 
the weight of some of them boxes; another thing they work too 
many hours. January and February some of them worked fifteen 
and sixteen hours a day, came in before I did. 

Q. This same floorwoman was here? A. Yes, sir. 

Miss H. E. Eic hards, called as a witness and being duly 
sworn, testified as follows: 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Give us your full name ? A. Miss II. E. Richards. 

Q. Where do you live ? A. 1255 West avenue. 

Q. Buffalo? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long have you been working here? A. Thirteen years. 

Q. You are the forelady of the girls' core room ? A. Yes. 

Q. How many girls have you working for you? A. At the 
present time fifty-eight girls. 

Q. What is the largest number you have had? A. Seventy- 
four. 

Q. They stand all day long, do they ? A. Yes, sir ; only when 
they take a rest at their lunch, and at lunch hour. 

Q. Half an hour for lunch ? A. They have longer than hali 
an hour, because I give them ten minutes to wash. 

Q. What time do they begin ? A. Get here at seven and most 
always start at a quarter past or half past. 

Q. What time do they stop? A. Half past four or a quarter 
to five. 

Q. Do they ever work overtime? A. Very seldom. 

Q. In January and February were the girls working from six 
in the morning until seven at night ? A. Never. 

Q. Started at seven and worked till seven at night? A. No, 
till ^ye. 

Q. Didn't they work overtime in January and February? A. 
Not that I remember. 



Miss H. E. Richards. 



149 



By the Chairman : 

Q. You would know ? A. We didn't because I have not had 
any overtime. 

By Commissioner Phillips: 

Q. What time do you quit ? A. Most generally at five o'clock 
in winter. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Do the girls ever complain to you of sick headaches? A. 
That is a disease all women have; I know I have headaches, I 
don't think it is from this work. 

Q. Does it come from the fumes of the ovens ? A. I have them 
on Sundays, so I don't think it would be any different. 

Q. What wages do the girls get ? A. They get from one dollar ; 
they start them at one dollar and some of them are getting a dollar 
and a half, a dollar and a quarter, and a dollar seventy-five cents. 

Q. Paid by the day or by the piece ? A. Piece. 

Q. How do you arrange piece work? A. Every job has a 
different price. 

Q. Do you fix prices ? A. Yes. 

Q. Have sole charge? A. Yes. 

Q. No one has anything to say but you ? A. No. 

Q. Do you know what the men receive for the same kind of 
work ? A. No ; because they do very little of my work. 

Q. Don't the men get more for doing exactly the same kind of 
work? A. I could not say because they don't do much of my 
work. 

Q. What do they do ? A. I don't know what they do. 

Q. Some time when you are rushed you send them over to the 
girl's side ? A. Most generally give them day work. 

Q. Don't you decide when it is sent out? A. No, the floor 
boss. 

Q. Are your prices corrected and changed ? A. Very often. 

Q. Lowered or increased ? A. Sometimes increased, sometimes 
lowered. 

Q. Aren't you given any standards by which you make prices ? 
A. No, sir; no one has any jurisdiction over prices but myself, 
that is left entirely to me. 



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Q. Do girls complain of the work being too heavy for them ? 
A. Never; I have no trouble of any kind; always have about ten 
or fifteen to send away. 

Q. How old are the girls ? A. Seventeen to twenty years or 
thirty. 

By the Cir airman: 

Q. What is the longest time any of the girls working here now 
have been working with you ? A. The oldest girl I have I sent 
away; she is going to be married. These two here (indicating) 
seven years. I have two girls in there now, these two (indicating) 
seven years. 

Q. Was the one that was sent away a little ill ? A. :N'o, sir • 
healthier than I am. I am perfectly healthy. 

Q. Do you keep tabs in there to show the time of the different 
girls ? A. I just keep the time of my pieceworkers. My girls 
quit at such a time and they wash and hang around, and some- 
times I have to chase them out. 

Q. You have a book ? A. Yes, sir ; time book. 
^ Q. Which, shows the time the girls go in and out ? A. We have 
time cards. They all have cards, the piece workers entirely 
separate. 

Q. Have you any of those cards for January and February ? 
A. No, sir; I don't keep them only from week to week. 

Q. What happens to them after that? A. I don't know; kept 
in the office, and we get paid for those cards. 

Q. What happens to the cards, if you know ? A. No. 

Q. Those cards would show the exact number of hours all of 
the girls worked in the month of January and February ? A. I 
believe they would. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Would they show when they were absent ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Would show the cause of absence, too i A. No, sir ; we have 
no cause of absence. 

Q. Now, Miss Eichards, how do you determine whether a girl 
is to go on piece work or go by the day ? A. Well, I keep a girl 
until she learns to do her work, and very often they come and ask' 



Miss H. E. Eichards. 



151 



me if they cannot have piece work. If she is able I put her at 
work on piece work. 

Q. How much do you give her when she begins ? A. One dol- 
lar a day. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. How many hours a day ? A. Nine hours, nine and one-half 
sometimes. Let them go ot ^ve\ sometimes later. They most 
generally begin to clean up about half past four ; some of the girls 
hang around and if they go on a street car it takes them so much 
longer that they would rather wait, and so they hang aroimd. 

Q. When do you pay off ? A. Four times a month, 6th, 13th, 
21st and 29th. 

Q. Is to-day pay day ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. To-day the envelopes come down ? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you get them ? A. No, each girl gets her own pay in the 
core room. 

Q. Who brings it around ? A. The paymaster. 

Q. Has he come around yet? A. An hour ago, about three 
o'clock I would judge. 

Q. Do you know whether it is true the men receive about twice 
as much for the same work as the girls do ? A. I could not say. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. You have heard that; you have been here thirteen years? 
A. They do larger work than we do. 

Q. There is some work that the men do which the women do 
also, isn't there? A. Yes, well, there are some jobs, yes. 

Q. Now, you have been here thirteen years ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, you know what prices the men get and the women get 
for that same work? A. Yes. 

Q. What is the difference in the price? A. It is so very sel- 
dom they do it. 

Q. In the seldom time? A. I believe very often when they do 
the same work on my floor they get the same price we do. They 
never make very much of my work, they do the big work. 



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Harry Czajoski, called as a witness, and being duly sworn, 
testified as follows: 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Will you give your full name ? A. Harry Czajoski. 
By the Chairman: 

Q. Where do you live ? A. Down at Black Rock. 

Q. You are employed with this concern, are you not ? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. What is the nature of your employment ? A. Foreman. 
Q. Foreman of the men's coreroom ? A. Foreman of the men's 
coreroom. 

Q. Do the men under you ever do work of similar nature that 
is done by the women here; do the women and men do some core- 
work which is the same? A. Yes. 

Q. When they do that work which is the same, what price do 
the women get a hundred ? A. I can't tell you exactly ; different 
kind of a job. 

Q. Take any case where the work is exactly the same, what 
does the man get for a hundred and what does a woman get for 
a hundred? A. Well, the woman gets twenty-five cents for a 
hundred, and the man sometimes paid more, ten cents, fifteen 
cents more. 

Q. You sometimes give them thirty-five cents and sometimes 
the same ? A. Yes, it depends on what it is ; some are good core- 
makers. 

Q. And if it is a good man you give him fifty cents ? A. Yes, 
if it is the man that can do the work. 

Q. They get more than women ? A. He does get more than a 
woman. 

By Commissioner Phillips: 

Q. Why do you give them more than a woman ? A. Because 
the man is best. They always know the man should make more 
money, that is why, because the girls make a dollar and a half and 
two dollars ; the men want to make more. 



Charles Seka. 



153 



By the Chairman : 

Q. The girls are satisfied with a good deal less money than a 
man? A. Yes; a man ain't satisfied with less money; have to 
give him a little more money, to make the work up. 

Q. When you give the men work to do are they taking the time 
away from the job at which they are making more money? A. 
Generally they work some jobs it is slow to make. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

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Q. That tank here (indicating), that is the place given for the 
men to wash up ? A. Yes. 

Q. What is he washing there? A. A core box. 

Q. In the same place? A. Yes. 

Q. Is that hot or cold water? A. Cold water. 

Q. That is the only place here, this tank, that the inen have 
to wash in? A. We have another little place in there (indicat- 
ing)- 

Charles Seka, called as a witness and being duly sworn, 
testified as follows: 

By the Chairman : 

Q. What is vour name ? A. Charles Seka. 

Q. How old are you? A. Twenty-five. 

Q. Do you work in the coreroom here? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long have you been working here? A. About two 
years already. 

Q. Plow much do you get a piece? A. Day work, piece work. 

Q. How much do you get a week ? A. Can't tell ; make more, 
make less. 

Q. How much did you get to-day for your pay? A. Over 
twenty dollars. 

Q. How long was that for ? A. For eight days ; I have one day 
for last week. 

Q. What time do you begin work in the morning ? A. Start at 
seven o'clock, sometimes six o'clock, if they get lots of work, work 
over time. 

Q. What time do you stop at night? A. At five o'clock; if 
you got a little too much work, work till six or half past six, 
something like that. 



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Q. You have lunch from twelve to half past twelve ? A. Yes. 
Q. Do jou bring your dinner with you? A. I no bring it, 
bring a pail. 

Q. What time do the women begin work? A. I can't tell 
women ; I watching my work. 

Q. You don't know what time they start or what time they 
stop ? A. No, watching my job, watching them begin work. 

Q. They don't get as much money as you do for the same work ? 
A. I don't know how much money they gets. 

Q. You hear the men kicking about it, don't they complain 
about the women working for so much less than men ? A. T know 
nothing about it. 



Buffalo, N. Y., May 30, 1912. 
The Conamission visited the plant of the Lackawanna Steel 
Company in the morning, and in the afternoon journeyed to East 
Aurora, New York, and inspected the establishment of the Eoy- 
crofters. 






MINUTES OF THE NEW YORK STATE FACTORY INVESTIGAT- 
ING COMMISSION, HELD AT NIAGARA FALLS, ON THE 30th 
DAY OF MAY, 1912. 



Niagara Falls, N. Y., May 31, 1912. 

The Commission visited the establishment of the Shredded 
Wheat Company at Niagara Falls, N. Y., and after making a tour 
of inspection, the following testimony was taken: 

Eugene Girard, called as a witness and being duly sworn, 
testified as follows: 

By the Chairman: 

Q. What is your name? A. Eugene Girard. 

The Chairman : Now, that you have been sworn, I am going 
to let the counsel ask you questions in a regular way. 

Bv Mr. Elkus: 

Q. You are the social welfare manager? A. I am called the 
welfare manager. 

Q. What are your duties ? A. My duties are to look after the 
social well being of the employees. 

Q. Tell us a little more specifically just what you do ? A. For 
example, the company here has various classes that are devoted to 
the education of the employees, such as classes in stenography, 
sewing classes, classes in the art of millinery — making of hats, 
dancing classes and singing classes. 

Q. When do the girls attend these classes? A. There are 
various times. Now, there are some of the classes which are 
attended at noon for half an hour. Others are after, immediately 
following the close of the day's work at six o'clock, and again the 
company in some instances has granted the use of an hour of its 
time. I mean this, that the singing lesson, the vocal lessons 
are of two hours' duration. Now, the company allows those who 

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belong to that particular class to leave their work at five o'clock, so 
thev really pay their time up to six o'clock just the same, and 
they keep on their lesson until seven o'clock. 

Q. The company provides the teachers of all of these classes ? 
A. Yes, pays for all the teachers. 

Q. What else besides these classes do you do for the girls ; do 
you go into their home life at all ? A. We try as much as possible 
to keep away from paternalism, and we limit the number of 
classes or the social features only to their progressive desires; I 
mean this, if a given number of employees should come and ask 
me to do something for their welfare, whether it was educational 
or social, if there was a sufficient number, that would be granted. 
To give you an example some of the boys came here and said, 
"We would like to get lessons in mechanical draughting." I 
stated to them, " If you get ten together T will call that sufficient 
to form a class." 

Q. How much does it cost the company per annum for this 
social welfare work ? A. This is the first year that I have had 
complete charge of the entire work, but I will state that it will 
cost the company not less than $35,000. 

Q. For how many employees? A. For about 450. That is, 
you know, only the actual expenses in money; that does not 
figure the rooms and the cost of keeping the bathrooms and the 
light and all the expenses that we call overhead charges. 

Q. Does that include the luncheon ? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you have any requirements as to girls, how they should 
dress, what clothes they should wear? A. No, they may dress as 
they please. 

Q. How about their caps and aprons; are they required to 
buy those? A. No; we furnish those free of cost; and the caps 
are given for sanitary purposes, so as to prevent the hair breaking 
away from the head, dandruff and so forth. 

Bv the Chairman : 

Q. What was the purpose of the company in organizing the 
welfare league? A. In combining sentiment with business they 
found that it was a paying proposition, not in return of money 
but in satisfaction, and seeing the family happy. We call this 



Eugene Girard. 



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the Shredded Wheat family. We make an effort to have every- 
body contented and we allow ourselves to go just as far as they 
will allow us to go. 

Q. How long is the Shredded Wheat Company in existence 
now ? A. To the best of my recollection about seventeen years. 

Q. How long is this welfare department in existence ? A. The 
welfare department as it is organized now has been going on for 
eighteen months, but previous to that a great deal of welfare work 
was being done, practically as much, but it wasn't organized into 
a department. 

Q. You have had one full year of the welfare department? 
A. A year and six months now. 

Q. Has there been a loss of profit to the company as a result 
of this organization ? A. No ; there could not be, about the same 
expense as before. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Do you find that you get any better work out of the girls 
by reason of the welfare work? A. Yes. 

Q. Have you any way of measuring that ? A. I have only one 
positive way of answering that which is this: That previous to 
the giving of warm meals to our employees, there is a period 
following the noon day hour, between one and three, at which 
time a certain amount of imperfect packages were recorded; as 
you notice in the factory there are a given number of imperfect 
packages that come through, and that is because of the girls not 
paying proper attention ; there will always be a given amount of 
that. Now, previous to the giving of the warm meal to the girls, 
the greater number of packages occurred between one and three, 
following the noon day hour. Now, I have noticed that has 
diminished very much, and that is the only positive assurance that 
I have that it benefits them. 

Q. Have you any complaints at all from the girls that the hours 
are too long ? A. Why no, we haven't ; we grant them Saturday 
afternoons with full pay and they seem to be very much satisfied. 

Q. Would there be any objection as far as you know to an 
opening and a closing hour being fixed ? That is, working between 
six in the morning, and nine at night; that you should not work 



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them anj later than nine at night; I understand jou don't except 
on rare occasions? A. We have on emergency cases, but from 
the viewpoint of healthfulness and rest, personally, I would object 
very much to it, to longer hours. 

Q. Are the girls ever examined by a physician ? A. No ; we 
don't have the girls examined by physicians. 

Q. Do you have a trained nurse here ? A. No ; but we have an 
emergency corps of trained girls. 

Q. Your own girls ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Trained for what ? A. Trained for emergency cases ; trained 
to give aid to injured and to give relief to those suffering from 
minor ailments. 

Q. Do you have any tuberculosis at all ? A. No, I watch that 
as closely as possible, and we have not had any case of tuberculosis 
in the establishment come to my notice but one. 

Q. How long had she been working? A. That was a man, 
wasn't a girl. 

Q. On what had he been working before you found him ? A. 
He was not discovered as tubercular until after some time ; he had 
been sick several months. 

Q. Wouldn't it be advisable, as your girls and men work over 
food products, to have them examined from time to time to dis- 
cover whether or not they had any symptoms of tuberculosis? 
A. It would be the more positive way. However we keep very 
close watch of them, and we don't allow any sickly girl to work. 
Q. Or any girl that coughs? A. If her general physical ap- 
pearance is such — 

Q. Do you think the girls would object if they were examined 
generally ? A. Yes, I think they would. 

Q. You see it is being advocated, and bakeries have examina- 
tions of bakers now. These girls and men are very much like 
bakers, especially as they handle the food products. Do the girls 
wash their hands before they go back to work after eating food ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Is that compulsory ? A. It is compulsory. 
Q. Who sees that it is done? A. There is no supervision over 
washing their hands, but they are instructed to do so. 

Q. Have they showers? A. They have showers for all of the 
men and bathtubs for the girls, with showers overhead. 



Eugene Gieabd. 



159 



Q. Do they take them ? A. Yes. 

Q. When ? A. Different times, at their rest periods. 

Q. Now, you have a relief association ? A. Yes. 

Q. Is it voluntary? A. Yes. 

Q. What do the girls do ? A. They are officered by themselves, 
as you know. That is to say they form their own or- 
ganization, and their officers are selected by popular vote, and 
they pay to the fund five cents every second week, and the men 
ten cents, and when they are sick they are given a certain run- 
ning amount of money — the men get six dollars, the girls get 
three dollars. However, the girls who want to join the first class, 
or Class A, pay ten cents every second week. 

Q. What do they get if they are ill ? A. Six dollars first class, 
second class three dollars. 

Q. How many weeks? A. Fifty-one weeks, I believe, I am 
not quite sure of that. 

Q. The men don't get free meals ? A. No ; the men pay about 
half the cost of the meal. 

Q. How much do they pay? A. Ten cents. 

Q. Do you do any welfare work for the men? A. Yes, sir, 
we permit the men to come in and dance and join the stenog- 
rapher's class. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Do you have a doctor examine the sick employees, who are 
drawing from this welfare fund? A. Yes, we have a company 
doctor, that is named by the insurance for the accident cases. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

You insure your people against accidents? A. Yes, sir. 

Bv the Chairman: 

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Q. Do you have a medical examination where one reports sick ? 
A. Yes. 

Q. And do you keep any statistics at all of the nature of the 
sickness? A. No; we don't; the only record we have as to sick- 
ness is that which is kept by the emergency nurses; let me show 
you that. 

Q. I mean have you any statistics to show the. amount that is 



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paid any one of your employees for relief i A. Yes, we have 
that ; that is in the hands of the secretary of the Association. 

By Commissioner Gompers : 

Q. Who is the treasurer of the Association ? A. At this time 
it is a gentleman by the name of Morris, one of the employees. 
Now, I forgot to mention that for every &ve or ten cents paid by 
the employees, the company pays as much. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. They double the contribution? A. Yes, at all times that 
their fund falls below a given amount, that is twelve hundred 
dollars, I believe, so the company has to pay practically all the 
time as much as the employees do. 

By Commissioner Dreier: 

Q. Is this deducted from their wages? A. Yes. 
By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. It is not voluntary? A. It is voluntary, but is deducted 
from their wages. 

Q. They all belong ? A. No. 

Q. After they have belonged a time, can they withdraw ? A. At 
any time. 

Q. Are all your girls mostly Americans? A. Mostly Ameri- 
cans. 

Q. Don't keep any Poles ? A. There are two or three of the 
higher grade Polish people. 

Q. How do you get your girls ? A. By advertising for them 
when it is necessary to do so, but there is always a very largo 
waiting list here. 

Q. Do they live in Niagara Falls? A. Most of them. 
By Commissioner Phillips: 

Q. What is the nature of the illnesses that your emergency 
nurses treat ? A. All minor ailments. 

Q. What are they? A. For example, accidents. 

Q. What kind are they ?^ A. Minor accidents. We have had 
only one serious accident here in the last twelve months. 

Q. What was that? A. A man fell from a very small box 
upon which he was standing and fractured his skull ; it was the 



Eugene Girard. 



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way in which he fell. Now, we have emergency nurses in our 
equipment which is always ready; after he was rushed to the 
hospital lie died very suddenly. 

Q. Your insurance company did not pay anything to him, did 
they ? A. That part of it I don't know. 

Hj Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Mr. Girard, what do these girls do after they are through 
with their lunch ? A. Some go in the rest room and read ; others 
write; others go down in the reception room; others walk; others 
lie down. 

Q. They can do just what they please? A. They can do just 
as they please, and go in every part of the building; you will 
find them everywhere; using the telephone. 
By Dr. Price : 

Q. Y'ou don't allow any girls to work here after they are 
married? A. IS'o, not making biscuits. 

By Commissioner Phillips: 

Q. What is the nature of the other accidents you had? A. 
Outside of minor accidents, cuts, contusions and a few bums, 
there have not been many accidents. A man hits himself with a 
hammer. Yesterday a man that don't belong to us got his arm 
crushed where they are laying conduits. 
By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How do the girls burn themselves? A. They don't; it is 
the men. 

Q. What happens to the girls, any accidents at all ? A. No, 
sir, no serious accidents here. There has only been one serious 
accident in the last ten years that I know of. That is when a 
girl put her hand into a conveyor chain where it was unprotected. 
She did that against instructions. The company has taken 
care of her ever since. 

Q. What did she do? A. Put her hand in a conveyor chain. 
Q. Carelessly? A. Carelessly. 

By Commissioner Phillips : 

Q. What are the illnesses of the girls ? A. Minor things like 
headaches, toothaches, cramps, stomach aches. 
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Q. Any of them faint? A. Very seldom. 
Q. They do occasionally? A. Yes. 

Q. Any of them get nervous at the work, and have to get up? 
A. Mr. Murphy can answer that better than I can do. 

By Commissioner Drjeieb: 

Q. What is the average age of the girls, they seem rather 
young. A. Nobody under sixteen. 

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Girard. 

The Witness: Not at all. There is a good deal we could 
tell that would perhaps be to the credit of the company, because 
there are many things that I know of that you do not ask. For 
example, let me state to you that in our culinary department we 
have taken measures to ascertain that no food enters the estab- 
lishment here unless it is in good condition. We use no cold 
storage articles of any kind; we permit the use of no raw vege- 
tables that have been stored in cellars except potatoes, and I have 
refused to even have raw cabbage and so forth. We make a test 
of the milk ; we make a test to see firstly, if it has been pasteur- 
ized; the test is made every morning in this office. We have 
a solution we use here to see the milk has been properly 
pasteurized. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Do you allow the girls or men to bring their own lunch 
from home? A. If they choose. 

Q. Can they go home ? A. If they choose. There are at this 
time less than twenty people that go away; and of course they 
live in the immediate vicinity. 

Q. W^ho selects the bill of fare each day? A. The welfare 
manager. 

Q. What do you give them, meat each day, Fridays?^ A. We 
give them meat Fridays, also fish if they desire. Now, you may 
keep, if you desire, the bill of fare in the dining-room, of the 
girls here. 

Q. You can dictate it now ? A. It varies every day. 

Q. Suppose you give the bill of fare to-day, and explain the 
system ? A. I will tell you the bill of fare of the men. Firstly we 
feed them every day a good soup, and we give them two- thirds of 



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Eugene Girard. 



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a pint of soup and all of the bread they wish to eat and creamery 
butter, and all the coffee and a generous portion of roast meat, 
potatoes and entree or side dish of vegetables and dessert. 

Q. For that you charge ten cents ? A. Ten cents. 

Q. To the men ? A. To the men. 

Q. And they can get extras if they want to? A. They have 
never called for any. That is simply sufficient for all and we 
use no pan bread. We use bread that has been baked on the 
earth, like the Germans do, or the French ; very well baked. 

By Commissioner Dreier: 

Q. Of course that ten cents does not cover the cost ? A. No. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. About half the cost ? A. About half the cost. 

Q. Now, what is the system with the girls? A. Now, the 
girls, the bill of fare is a little too long to mention but I will per- 
mit you to take a copy at the girls' dining-room. Now, the girls 
are given on Monday morning six checks, and those six checks 
represent six meals. As they enter the dining-room they exchange 
them for fifteen brass checks, then they go and spend them at the 
counter, selecting whatever articles they may choose. 

Q. What is the idea of giving them credit for fifteen cents ? A. 
Because it is about sufficient to cover the meal. 

Q. Why don't you serve them a meal like you do the men ? A. 
Because we found that the girls' appetites are very much more 
finicky than the average man's and a meal such as we serve the 
men did not suit all of the girls. As a matter of fact a great many 
girls eat no meat at all. 

Q. Pickles and ice cream? A. And in this manner they are 
permitted to utilize whatever they choose. 

Q. I didn't want to interrupt you ; you wanted to tell us some 
other things ? A. As to the point where we tested the articles of 
food, I think that is pretty well covered. 

By Commissioner Gompers : 

Q. You said you will furnish a list of the bill of fare to-day ? 
A. Yes ; I have given that bill of fare ; the girls' bill of fare you 
can get that from the board ; there are twenty-five articles. 



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Mr. Elkus : Is there anything else you would like to tell us ? 
A. Yes, I want to state this, that the employees here seem to be 
greatly satisfied and happy, and that we have made known to them 
this fact, that at any time they are in trouble of any kind or 
nature, whether financially or otherwise, that we would be pleased 
to have them come and see the welfare manager, and that we would 
try to do what we could for them, to help them along. However, 
always keeping away from paternalism as much as possible. 

Q. How many people are in your welfare department besides 
yourself? A. There are fourteen. 

Q. That includes the kitchen staff? A. That includes the 
kitchen staff, the librarian and the stenographer. 

By Commissioner Gompers: 

Q. The singing director? A. No, that does not include the 
teachers. 

By Commissioner Dreier: 

Q. They don't pay anything at all for the class ? A. Pay noth- 
ing at all for the class. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Do these girls live within walking distance of the factory ? 
A. They are spread all over the town ; many of them have to ride. 

Q. IsTow, is there anything further you would like to say ? A. 
N^othing more. 

Elson M. Murphy, called as a witness, being duly sworn, 
testified as follows: 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Will you give your full name and position, with the com- 
pany? A. Elson M. Murphy. 

Q. What is your position ? A. Superintendent of production. 

Q. How long have you been connected with the company ? A. 
Between sixteen and seventeen years. 

Q. How long have you been located here at Niagara Falls ? A. 
It will be — it is going on eleven years. 

Q. How many employees have you? A. I can't state 
accurately. 



Elson M. Murphy. 



165 



Q. About? A. Between four and five hundred, five and six 
hundred. 

Q. How many men and how many girls ? A. I have a little 
over two hundred in the factory, and I don't know just how many 
in the office are girls ; I would say divide up about half and half. 

Q. What do the girls do? They all work in the factory? 
A. Yes, packing biscuits, wrapping triscuits, and packing the 
biscuits in the cases. 

Q. What is the lowest wage you pay to the girls? A. We 
start the girls the first two weeks on six dollars, as beginners. 
After that six dollars and a half the first year ; the next year seven 
dollars and a half, the next year eight dollars and a half ; the next 
nine dollars and a half. 

Q. Automatically raised each year? A. Each year. 

Q. Do they begin at a certain kind of work ? A. No, the work 
is all the same, but we have on the beginners' table, we put two 
more girls on that than we do on the others. That gives them a 
chance to work; they can work better than they could with the 
lower number. 

Q. When do they begin work in the morning? A. Seven 
o'clock. 

Q. And stop at twelve ? A. And stop at twelve for an hour. 

Q. Begin at one and stop at six? A. Yes; five days a week; 
Saturday from seven to twelve. 

Q. That makes fifty-five hours ? A. Yes. 

Q. When the Fifty-four Hour Law goes into effect, what do 
you intend to do ; have you thought of that at all ? A. That would 
be up to the oflEicers of the company. 

Q. What do you intend to do when the Fifty-four Hour Law 
goes into effect in October ? How do you intend to arrange your 
hours? A. I suppose we will have to quit at eleven o'clock on 
Saturday. 

Q. You would not start at 8 ? A. No ; because we don't antici- 
pate any reduction of salary because of that one hour. 

Q. Suppose, Mr. Murphy, a law was made which provided 
that you could not work before a certain hour in the morning, or 
after a certain hour at night, say from 6 in the morning until 
9 at night; no more than fifty-four hours per week, would that 
affect your business at all ? A. Not at the present time. 



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Q. Do you see any way it would harm it? A. There might 
be times when we might want to vary it, the same as it has been 
in the past. 

Q. Are there any girls or women Avho receive more than $9 a 
week ? A. Yes, the forewomen they get more. 

Q. How much do they receive? A. They receive $13 and $14 ; 
it is either $12 or $13 or $13 or $14. 

Q. How many forewomen have you? A. Three. 

Q. The men — you have just about as many men as women ? 
A. Just about. 

Q. What do they do, work at the machinery, at the ovens? 
A. Well, there are some in the cleaning room, look after clean- 
ing the wheat, cooking the wheat in the curing room, preparing 
it, it goes to the shredders. The men on the panners pass the 
pans in and take them out. The man on the oven puts the pan 
in and out of the oven; men feeding the packing tables for the 
girls; then it goes upstairs to the sealing room; a few men look 
after the sealing machines, and men at the end who nail up the 
cases, and then we have men at the upper rooms preparing the 
cases ; have men cleaning, men who are loading cars, driving 
the horses. 

Q. What do you pay your men, do they begin at a certain 
wage? A. The lowest rate that we have is eighteen cents an 
hour; that gives then $10.80 a week, because we pay them for 
the half day off. We find, to make fifty-five hours, it makes a 
higher rate ; that is just those who come in as sparemen for gen- 
eral work, and then as soon as there is an opening place that they 
know something about, they are put to work at that. The next 
steady job is $13 — I think it is about $13.50; the next $14.25, 
and from there up. 

Q. How far up do they go? A. The bakers get a little over 
$19. It is all figured on the hour basis. 

Q. But they are paid by the week? A. Paid each week by 
the hour. Everything is figured by the hour. 

Q. Could they stop sooner if they wanted to, or do you require 
them to work ten hours a day ? A. They are required unless they 
ask to be off; of course, if they ask to be off, we make arrange- 
ments for some one to take their place. 



By the Chairman: 

Q. Are girls paid by the hour? A. Yes, everything is paid 
by the hour. They punch on the clock. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Have you a relief system for the girls and men ? A. Yes. 

Q. What is it? A. On each packing table we have a relief 
girl who takes the place of the other girls. 

Q. In turn she takes each girl's place? A. Yes. 

Q. How much time? A. Each girl gets at least ten minutes, 
and it often runs up there to thirteen or fourteen minutes. 

Q. How often does she get around to each girl? A. Twice 
a day, and if there is any emergency that is taken care of. 

Q. How old are your girls when they come to work ? A. Six- 
teen up. 

Q. Don't take any under? A. Don't take any under. At one 
time we had some under, but not in the last two years. 

Q. Do any of the girls when they come to work get faint or 
get sick? A. Very seldom. 

Q. Late in the afternoons do you find the girls getting sick or 
fainting? A. Very seldom; once in a while they have in ex- 
treme hot weather, in summer. 

Q. You have no examination by physicians to discover tuber- 
culosis in the girls ? A. Xo. 

Q. Do you think the girls would object to that if it was done 
regularly, once every six months or so, by a woman physician? 
A. I don't see that they would. 

Q. You think it would bo a good thing, don't you ? A. I see 
no reason why it wouldn't. 

Q. What are your men, Americans, too? A. Well, they are 
of various nationalities, some Canadians and Americans. We 
have some foreigners on the outside work, some Italians. 

Q. None inside? A. There are a few on the shipping force 
but there are no foreigners, not what we call foreigners; we don't 
consider the Canadians foreigners. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. What is about the average time your girls remain in your 
employ? A. I have some girls who have been here ever since 



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we started, ten years ago, but most of them have graduated, 
married off as they get around 24 and 25 ; we have quite a num- 
ber who have married off and others who leave for other reasons, 
get office jobs. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Do any of them through your welfare department learn 
to be stenographers or milliners or anything like that, and leave 
for that reason ? A. I believe at the present time we have a class 
in stenography. 

Q. You don't take any married women ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Why not ? A. Mr. Girard does; he has some in the kitchen. 

Q. I mean in the factory ? A. Well, it is simply an unwritten 
law; there is no rule against it; but in Worcester, at one time, 
we had one of the first six girls that ever worked in the factory 
get married, then a few others were married, and we had some 
work at one time that kept us working till 9 o'clock and we had 
married ladies do that because their husbands could take them 
home, and as a matter of convenience, but we found there were 
so many little things that came up in regard to their family 
affairs, that it did not seem well to continue it. 

By Commissioner Dreier: 

Q. Do the girls live at home; I mean do you make a point of 
taking girls from the home? A. There are girls that come in 
from Canada ; some of them board with other girls, but we know 
where they stay. We make it a point to find out about them 
before we take them in. Now, a great many times I have an 
understanding with the girls that if a girl conies in there and 
puts in an application, they have to pass right in front of all the 
girls on the packing floor to come to my office, and all the girls 
there see the applicants for the position, and I give those girls 
an application to be made out, and if there is anybody that is 
going to say anything against those girls, they come to my office 
and say it quick. Of course, I don't take that girl in my office 
right away, and if a girl knows anything about a girl coming in, 
and says that she is an objectionable girl, then I investigate. I 
haven't had any case where a girl has objected to another that 
I have ever taken the girl in. 



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Bv Mr. Ei.Kus: 

ft/ 

Q. How do you find the morality of the girls? A. It is con- 
ceded, I think, we have the best class of girls any place in the 
city. 

By Commissioner Phillips: 

Q. When you promote them automatically at the end of each 
year, do you promote every one? A. As soon as the year is up 
they receive an increase without notice. 

Q. Do you have many girls drop out during the first year ? A. 
We have some. 

Q. Very many? A. Not veiy many; there are some girls that 
come in only for temporary jobs. 

Q. Do you have some drop out because the work is not suitable ( 
A. Ninety-eight per cent, stayed over last year. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Do you discharge any for incompetency, neglect or careless- 
ness ? A. Once in a while, not very often, unless it is something 
where it is continuous, the first time why we reprimand them 
and see if it won't have an effect which it does in many cases. We 
have considered that a little talking will do them more good than 
employing another girl in their places. 

By Commissioner Goaipers: 

Q. I notice that the work of each of the girls was done as 
quickly as any of the other girls in the same row. Any girls that 
fail to come up to the required deftness and quickness and 
adaptability are let out, you are not supposed to let down the 
speed of your machine ? A. No, we expect the girls to keep up. 
If a girl cannot do her part, she is taken from the payroll for a 
time, and I try her sometimes on packing samples, to give her a 
chance. We give her a chance to gain in speed and of course, if 
she cannot do it, then she is incompetent, and we do not need any 
incompetent girls, but it is very seldom I have to dismiss a girl 
for anything of that kind ; something wrong with the girl if T do. 

By Commissioner Phillips: 

Q. How many did you dismiss for that reason ? A. None this 
year. 



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MiNUTKs OF Public Hkakincjs. 



Fred Mason. 



171 









y>y Commissioner Dreier: 

Q. How did joii work out this system of packing? A. Wo 
started in originally, we put them up in a lock box, and the 
biscuits were fed over into a large receiving tray with a sloping 
slide, and they went down to the girls. Then we gradually 
evolved this sealing machine. First, we simply laid the boxes on 
forms, setting up each individual one on a form, and sealing the 
bottom; then they were packed; went through a sealing process 
afterwards, and gradually we worked it up to this feeder we have 
at the present time. 

Q. I mean the number of shredded wheat biscuits that the 
girls can pack ? A. You know there are fifty-two biscuits on a 
pan, and we simply divide it up so that each girl will pack hers ; 
the first girl takes it off the the first row until the first row is 
cleaned off, then the girls a little further down commence on the 
second row, and the girls on the other side the same. When it 
reaches the last girl there is very little left. 

By Commissioner Phillips: 

Q. About ten per cent, of the girls are absent each day ; they 
stay outside ? A. Yes, I think about ten per cent, for absence. 
I guess you will find that in all places where girls work ; that is 
just from natural causes. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. They lose their pay ? A. They are paid for the time they 
are actually here. 

Fred Mason, called as a witness and being duly sworn, 
testified as follows: 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Grive us your full name? A. Fred Mason. 

Q. What is your position? A. Vice-President and General 
Manager. 

Q. How long have you been connected with the company ? A. 
September 1, 1910. 

Q. Mr. Mason, you are familiar with tlie fact that the Legis- 
lature passed an act limiting the hours that a woman may work, 



after October first next, to fifty-four hours a week, and you now 
work your employees fifty-five hours? A. Yes, when I came 
here they were working them sixty hours. 

Q. You voluntarily reduced it to fifty-live? A. Yes. 

Q. Why ? A. Because I thought we would get better results ; 
because 1 thought half a day means a great deal to a girl working 
on a moderate salary, doing her sewing, repairing and shopping. 
It was one of the first things I recommended to our people; in 
fact, we started it October 1, 1910. I came here in September. 

Q. Do you find from an economic standpoint it is a paying 
proposition ? A. We made goods cheaper last year than ever in 
the history of the company. 

Q. Will you tell us a little more in detail how that came about ? 
A. Previous to my coming here they used to close the factory 
during the summer months on Saturday afternoon, and the) 
didn't have any regular sliding scale for wages for the girls, and 
the first time that came to my notice was a committee of girls 
asking me to continue the Saturday afternoon closing, and I took 
it up with our board of directors, and recommended that we close 
on Saturday noon with full pay. That is we would have fifty- 
five hours' work for sixty hours' pay, and in addition to that, in 
order to keep our girls interested, have them not to reach the limit 
of wage too soon, we made a sliding scale whereby the minimum 
wage for the first year is six dollars and a half per week. Now, 
if they stay the next year they get seven dollars and a half. Mr. 
Murphy's statement is absolutely right. A girl cannot stand 
still; if she is not worth $7.50 she would not be competent; the 
third year she would get eight dollars and a half and the fourth 
year $0.50, which is our maximum for general factory work. Our 
foreladies get a dollar a week increase also each year. They are 
now getting from twelve to fourteen dollars. 

Q. Mr. Mason, when the Fifty-four Hour Law goes into effect, 
do you intend to reduce the pay in accordance with the number 
of hours ? A. No, we will simply adjust our work some way or 
the other, so as to work fifty-four instead of fifty-five. 

Q. In other words, the girls won't suffer ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Pay the same wages as now? A. Yes, sir. 



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Q. Do you work the men fifty-five hours too? A. Yes, pay 
them extra if they work over. 

Q. How much extra do you pay them? A. Time and a half, 
for all extra work. 

Mr. Murphy: The bakers are paid for seventy-two hours; 
anything over seventy-two hours they are paid for time and a 
half; they are paid for twelve hours a day; they are paid right 
through the noon hour. 

The Witness : You see they work night and day. 
By Commissioner Dreier: 

Q. Do you keep the bake ovens going day and night ? A. Yes. 

Q. You have a twelve hour shift ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Then the bakers work practically twelve hours ? A. Yes. 

Q. All the bakers work twelve hours? A. Yes. 

Q. What do you do in the change from day to night; how do 
you ^x that, how do the men work ? A. Seven o'clock. I think 
in the morning from seven to seven, for bakers and Irom six to 
six for the others. 

Q. For instance the bakers when they go from night work to 
day work ? A. JSTo shift work at all ; the night men are on steady. 

Q. All through the year ? A. Oh, yes ; they prefer it to the 
shift work. 

Q. How many men have you working for twelve hours a day ? 
Mr. Murphy : We have twenty-four men on the ovens. 
By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. What do they receive ? 

Mr. Murphy : They get big money ; most of our work is expert 
work. 

By Commissioner Dreier: 

Q. How much increase to the company would it be to put those 
men on eight-hour shifts? A. We would have to put just twenty- 
four men on; it would be 50 per cent, increase; the men them- 
selves don't object to that. They want to work the twelve hours 
because they want the money; we could not afford to pay them 
the same amount for eight-hour work that we do for twelve.' 



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Tred Mason. 






Q. You mean regular employment ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You said you had been able to manufacture cheaper since 
you put your girls on the fifty-five hours than the sixty hours? 

A. That is true. 

Q. Can you tell me what percentage it was cheaper? A. I 
could not tell you what percentage you could attribute to that one 
feature, but I meant the general interest to the people by giving 
them half a day off, and their increase in pay, I thought, they 
took more interest and worked faster. 

Q. They feel kinder to you ? A. Yes. 



By Commissioner Dt?eier: 

Q. Less imperfect boxes, too '( 
to have a hundred. 



A. ^^es, not one where we used 



By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Do any of the girls complain of the hours as being too long, 
or that they have to come too early in the morning? A. ^ever 
heard that complaint. 

Bv Commissioner Gompers : 

Q. During the winter season? A. I think we have got the 
happiest people, ^Ir. Gompers, you will find in the United States 
in a factory. 

Q. A man that feels that he is doing justice has no need to 
hide it ? A. I doir t know what our people have said to you, but 
my opinion has been since I have been here that no one can make 
a success of any position unless they like it, and we have tried to 
make our people like their positions, and from that we have gotten 

results. 

Q. Was there any time that you know of, a lunch hour of less 
than one hour ? A. ^ever since I have been here. 

Q. Do you know, Mr. Murphy, whether the lunch hour was 
ever less than an hour. 

Mr. Murphy : It is less for the men on the shredders. 
Q. I mean for instance among the women ? 

Mr. Murphy : Never for the women. 



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Minutes of Plblic Hearings. 



Mr. Elkus: This is a unique establishment; I mean you 
make a unique article; you haven't any competition so to speak 
have you ? ' 

The Witness: Ko, sir: All the more reason why we have 
to make just a little better goods than if we did have competition; 
that is ratlier a broad statement. Of course people never eat two 
kinds of cereal for breakfast, so you might say that any cereal 
in a way is a competitior of ours, either a shredded wheat cus- 
tomer or corn flakes, or oatmeal. Therefore, it would not do on 
account of our being the only shredded wheat company to have 
our prices higher. 

Q. You really have competition ? A. Yes. I don't know as I 
ever knew anybody to eat shredded wheat and oatmeal both for 
breakfast. 

By Commissioner Dreier: 

Q. AVill you tell me how many girls are paid the high salary 
of nine dollars and a half? A. You must remember this; this 
schedule was only put in last year. 

Q. This was a new schedule ? A. Surely. 

Q. Before you began with five dollars and fifty cents ? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you increase also ? A. I will tell you what we did ; 
it was a funny arrangement, some getting five dollars, some five 
and a half, some getting six dollars and a half. We raised them 
all a dollar to get a basis to start on ; raised everybody a dollar. 
Then we started in with all the girls getting six dollars and a half 
if they stayed two years. The first year we had was January 1, 
1912, and you will find 75 per cent., perhaps I would say off- 
hand, of the girls got the increase on that money; yes, that is 
right ; 75 per cent, at least got seven dollars and a half, instead 
of six dollars and a half, the last of January. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. What is, the highest price you are paying for an ordinary 
girl working now ? A. Nine dollars and fifty cents. 

Q. Any getting nine dollars and fifty cents now ? A. Yes, sir. 
By Commissioner Dreier: 

Q. About how many? A. When I first came hero I think 
thirty. 



Fred Mason. 



175 



By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How many getting eight dollars and a half ? A. We can get 
all of that data for you in five minutes. 

By Commissioner Gompers : 

Q. Those two years in which the wages are increased say to 
nine dollars and a half, does that work automatically dating from 
the time they begin their employment with the company? A. 
Yes ; that is those that now start at six dollars and a half, but you 
understand there are some that have been so many years, that to 
adjust it we gave them all the increase of one dollar more than 
they were getting at that time. Suppose a girl was getting seven 
dollars a week when we made this adjustment, we gave her eight 
dollars, the next year she would get nine dollars ; the next fifty 
cents more ; never any more in that position ; the minimum is six 
dollars and a half and the maximum nine and a half. 

By Commissioner Dreier: 

Q. Did you increase the wages because you were getting more 
dividends, or what was the reason for your change? A. I don't 
know; I wanted to do what I could for the people here, and I 
thought we could make dividends sufficient to warrant it. 

Q. You have been ? A. We have. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. What are the dividends ? A. We pay four per cent, on our 
common stock and six per cent, on our preferred ; and declared an 
extra one per cent, on our common last year, and last year is the 
first year we paid four per cent, on the common. We paid three ; 
I have never hesitated a minute to say that we haven't gained 
more by this arrangement and I frankly tell the employees so. 

By Commissioner Dreier: 

Q. Would you consider increasing the wages of the employees 
when you get more? A. Most certainly. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How much are you capitalized for? A. Ten millions of 
dollars. 



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Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. How much preferred ? A. One million, two hundred and 
fifty thousand dollars of preferi-ed, eight millions, seven hundred 
and fifty thousand dollars of common. 

Q. Would you like to make any other statement? A. ISTo, I 
think not. I think this is a nice thing. I am sure there are many 
manufacturers, people responsible for the management that would 
be glad to meet yon people and know what your views are. People 
don't do wrong wilfully. 

Mr. Elkus : Most of it is ignorance. 

The Witness: Most of it is ignorance. I think one thing 
may be particularly fortunate for us here. We at the head of 
the departments here are all fellows that have gone up from 
smaller positions and I think we realize and have more sympathy 
for working people than lots of men at the head. 

Q. That is very strange, because lots of other people have com- 
plained that the men hardest on them are men who were formerly 
among them ? A. The best employees we have got are our oldest. 

Q. How long have you been with the company? A. Since 
September 1, 1910. 

Q. The reason I asked you you said you had grown up from 
minor positions. ? A. IN'ot in this line; I grew up as a grocery 
clerk. Here is something that will interest this lady. What we 
are practically trying to do here is instead of going outside, if we 
have no higher positions to make for promotions from our ranks, 
we are carrying them through even to our office and elevator boys. 
Now, in the girls — we have young men teaching them ; our man 
here is a very proficient stenographer and he is teaching them 
two hours a week, girls in the factory, shorthand and stenography 
with a view of drawing on our factory girls for the office positions, 
and last week we put Miss Lewis from the factory into the in- 
formation desk„ and Mr. Stonehouse. We are trying to do that 
to encourage our people that this is a place for them to stay. 
Q. There is a future for them? A. Yes. 

Mr. Elkus : We want to compliment you, Mr. Mason, on your 
establishment. 

The Witness : Our President is Mr. A. J. Porter ; vou know 

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Fred Mason. 



177 



him by reputation; he will be very glad to meet any of you 
gentlemen. 

By Commissioner Gompers: 

Q. Can you get some detailed figures showing the time lost by 
the employees by reason of their absence or cause of illness, if 
you have any such? The reason I ask the question is if we can 
ascertain the fact that people worked steadily throughout the year 
with less loss time by reason of illness and by reason of other 
causes purely their own, as compared to the employees in other 
establishments where conditions are not so good, the only deduction 
that can be made is that this loss of time for any reason is due 
to the fact of the conditions being worse? A. The only great 
trouble we have with loss of time, we gave them the auditorium 
every two weeks in the winter for a dance; we furnished the 
orchestra and they invited their own friends and some of them 
don't show up the next day after dancing till midnight; we try 
to be rather liberal with them, but I believe that our percentage 
of our absentees will surprise you when you get those figures. 

Mr. Murphy : One thing I would like to say in regard to the 
absentees. I think if the wages were lowered there would be 
more than they are now. The fact that they have enough to live 
on, and don't have to work, and a great many of them don't have 
to work, can be out when they want to, and they take advantage 
of that fact, that they are home, and it is not absolutely neces- 
sary for them to work, and little trivial things will keep them out, 
where it wouldn't keep them out if they were working in an 
establishment where they were forced to be there all the time. 
I allow about twenty girls extra that I figure on account of others 
being out. It is not on account of actual sickness; it is not be- 
cause we use them so hard, through nervousness and various 
things of that kind they are out. A great deal of it is family 
affairs; their mothers are sick. 

By Commissioner Dreier: 

Q. You spoke of a committee coming to you about asking for 
a permanent Saturday for a holiday; do you do work with a 
committee of the girls ? 



178 



Minutes of Pu bi.to Hearings. 



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The Witness: 'No; they never met mo; they left a notice on 
my desk. 

Q. Do you deal with a committee of girls ? 

Mr. Murphy : It is very seldom a committee ever comes to me. 
Q. You have never had any labor trouble in your establishment ? 

Mr. Murphy : Once, before Mr. Mason came. 

By Dr. Price: 

Q. I see here the week ending January 15th, female fingers 
sore and bleeding, 65 ; does that mean 65 fingers or girls ? 

Mr. Girard: Sixty-five girls. 

Q. How many are in that section ? 

Mr. Girard: I should say in general about 125. 
Q. This means sore and bleeding so they have to go to the 
dispensary to be fixed up? 

Mr. Girard : We should state that is finger sanitation. They 
never had to stop on that account, but if there is a little abrasion 
of the fingers or they don't look quite right, we attend to them. 

By Dr. Price : 

Q. How do they get sore ? 

Mr. Girard: By rubbing against machinery and biscuits and 
so forth. 

Q. You have the first aid physician organization ? A. We have. 

Mr. Gikakd : We have a first aid emergency corps composed of 
sixteen girls who have volunteered their services. Now, these 
girls have been properly instructed under the tuition of a trained 
nurse and physician, and after receiving the necessary trainin^^ 
they have been allowed to continue the emergency course. That 
is composed of sixteen girls, and they are distributed over the 
factory into sections, and each of the girls is properly equipped 
with a grip containing all the necessary drugs and bandages and 
things of that kind to be first aid to the injured and sick. So 
I want you to take note that we have more cases possibly of sick- 
ness and minor ailments such as headaches, toothaches and so on 
than anything else. 



Fred Mason. 



179 



By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. About cut fingers, do the girls wrap them ? 

Mr. Girard : As soon as the fingers don't feel comfortable they 
come to one of the emergency nurses. 
Q. Are they bound up, bandaged up? 

Mr. Girard: They don't need bandaging; most of them neerl 
a little ointment on it of some kind, and rubber fingers. 
Q. Do they go back to work ? 

Mr. Girard: Yes. 

Q. Have you ever tried to have the girls work with gloves ? 

Mr. Girard : We provide them with rubber fingers. 
Q. That is after they have an abrasion ? 

Mr. Girard: No, before. 
Q. They don't use them ? 

Mr. Girard : Don't like to use them. 

Q. What do they get sore fingers from? A. Handling the 
biscuits. 

By Dr. Price: 

Q. You have no physical examination before they enter ? 

Mr. Girard: No physical examination, 
Q. It would be a good thing ? 

Mr. Girard: Very much so provided that all manufacturers 
were obliged to have a physical examination. I state this because 
I feel that if a factory proprietor or a concern of some kind should 
impose a medical examination, and his neighbor did not, he would 
not be on an equal footing with his neighbors to secure employees 
because they would object, but I am much in favor of a State 
law which would enforce medical examinations, not only from the 
standpoint of the manufacturer in protection to the people at 
large, but from the standpoint of humanity, because in many cases 
incipient tuberculosis and other diseases would thereby be dis- 
covered, and properly taken care of, meaning a great saving of 
lives to the State. 



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Minutes of Vvhlw Hearings. 



Fred Mason. 



181 



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By the Chairman : 

Q. When you said you wanted a State law, you mean so as 
to prevent discrimination, you mean that you would not want a 
law w^hich applied to one industry and none of the others ? You 
would have no objection if the law for the examination applied 
to all the industries of a certain kind ? 

Mr. GiRARD : I should welcome such a law very much, and be 
in favor of it. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Why are there so many more cases of sore fingers in the 
first section than in the second section ? 

Mr. Girard: Because more girls are employed in those 
sections. 

Q. How are these sections made up, first, second, third and 
fourth ? 

Mr. Girarb: First and second floors, first section, and any 
given number of floors and location. 

Q. Do they do different kinds of work in different sections? 

Mr. Girard: Yes. 

Q. What does the first section do ? 

Mr. Girard: Practically the making of the biscuit. In the 
first section are machinists, carpenters, men firing ovens, bakers, 
girl baking. 

Q. Only bakers, I noticed in looking through this book report 
of emergency nurses, that there are a great number each week of 
burned and bleeding fingers. 

Mr. Girard: That is because all of the biscuit baking is done 
in the first section. 

Q. Have you tried any method of stopping those bums to these 
fingers ? 

Mr. Girard : Simply by proper attendance to the fingers, mani- 
curing and so on. Now, sore, swollen and bleeding fingers seem 
to indicate much, but it does not; it is really very minor cases 
that don't amount to but very little. In most instances it is 



nothing but a red spot, which never amounts to a blister or any- 
thing of that kind. There is the uncomfortable feeling of the 
finger, and to simplify the comprehension of the filer we put it 
under w^orn and bleeding fingers. 

Q. What do you do with the biscuits which these girls touch 
with their sore fingers ? 

Mr. Girard: Those girls don't touch biscuits with fingers 
that are so sore as to permit contamination. There are no cases 
of sore and bleeding fingers which amount to anything at all. 

By Commissioner Dreier: 

Q. Do you find any eye strain among girls watching that mov- 
ing tray? 

Mr. Girard: No, we have not; there are a few girls wearing 
glasses ; they do it in such a mechanical way that most of the time 
they are looking elsewhere. 

For example, every girl in the factory knows Mr. Gompers is 
here, and that goes to show that if they had to keep their eyes 
on the biscuits, they could not notice Mr. Gompers. 



Niagara Falls, N. Y., May 31, 1912. 

The Commission inspected the power plant of the Niagara 
Falls Power Company, and made a tour of inspection of the 
establishment of the Carborundum Company. 



George Young. 



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HEARING OF THE STATE FACTORY INVESTIGATING COMMIS- 
SION, HELD AT THE PLANT OF THE UTICA KNITTING 
COMPANY, UTICA, N. Y., AUGUST 12, 1912. 



Present : 

Hon. HoBERT r. Wagner, Chairynan, 

ITon. Edward O. Jackson, 

Hon. CvRrs W. rniLTjps, 

Miss Mary E. Dreier, 

Frank A. Tierney, Esq., Secretary. 

Appearances: 

Hon. Abram I. Elkus, Counsel to the Commission. 
Bernard L. Shientao, Esq., Assistant Counsel. 

George S. CongialosI; being duly sworn, testified as 
follows : 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus: 

Q. You are State Factory Inspector assigned to the State Fac- 
tory Investigating Commission? A. I am. 

Q. Did you inspect the carding room of the Utica Knitting 
Company? A. I did. 

Q. When was your investigation made? A. To-day, August 
12, 1912. 

Q. With the Factory Commission? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And this testimony is taken in the carding room? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. !N^ow, what have you found with reference to unguarded 
machinery? A. I find the belts and pulleys of all the machines 
unguarded. 

Q. Is that in violation of law ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Are they unguarded in places where it is dangerous? A. 
Yes, sir; in the passage-ways. 

Q. How wide are the passage-ways between the machines? A. 
About eighteen inches between the shaft end and the pulleys. 

£182] 



Q. Is the floor slippery or dry ? A. Slippery. 

Q. What do you find with reference to the cotton fluff when 
the machines are in operation ? A. I find the entire room filled 
with particles of cotton fluff' emanating from the machines. 

Q. Were any of the windows open? A. 'No, sir. 

Q. Why weren't they open to give some ventilation? A. Be- 
cause the cotton would go out. 

•Q. Were there any hoods over the machines ? A. !N"o, sir. 

Q. Was there any system of ventilation other than the windows 
which were not open ? A. No, sir. 

Q. What did you find in the case of one machine ? A. I found 
the gears on one machine unprotected, and three men working in 
this room. 

Q. Describe the closets and toilets on this floor, called the mule 
A. The water closet on the third floor or mule room floor 



room. 



is in a filthv condition, the seat broken and saturated with urine 
and fecal matter incrusted around the bowl. The walls of the 
water-closet compartment are unclean and the closets are illy 
ventilated. 

George Young, an employee of the Utica Knitting Com- 
pany, testified as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus : 

Q. How old are you? A. Fifteen last September. 
Q. What is your birthday? A. The 21st. 
Q. You work here as a tuber? A. Yes. 
Q. What do you do? A. Put those tubes on spindles. 
Q. And you get how much? A. $4.84 a week. 
Q. Where do you live? A. West Utica, 
Q. You walk home every day? A. Yes. 
Q. How long does it take you? A. About 15 minutes. 
Q. How long have you been working here? A. Since July. 
Q. Julv, last vear? A. This Julv. 
Q. You just came here? A. Yes. 
Q. You have only been here about a month ? A. Yes. 
Q. What are you doing now? A. Oiling; helping my father. 
Q. Did you ever work before you came to this place ? A. Yes, 
sir. 



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Q. Whpre? A. Pawtucket, Rhode Island. 
Q. How long did you work there ? A. Since I was 14. 
Q. Do you go to school ? A. l^o. 
Q. Have you a working certificate? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How many boys are working here as tubers? A. Couple 
of them; about six. 

Q, What is your father doing? A. Mill spinner. He (;ils 
spinners. 

Q. Ever work after 5 o'clock? A. No. 

Q. How long do you get for lunch ? A. Hour. 

Q. Do you take the whole hour or only take half an hour? 
A. No. 

Q. Well, do you go out ? A. No. 

Q. What do you do during Innch liour? A. Do anything. 

Q. What do you do, help your father during lunch hour i A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. How long does that take, half an hour? A. Twenty 
minutes, I guess. 

Q. Don't you go out in the air at all, during the noon hour? 
A. No. 

Q. Stay in here? A. Yes. 

Q. Do all the men go bare-footed like you do ? A. Yes. 

Q. Why do they do that ? A. Too hot, I guess. 

George S. Congialosi, recalled. 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus : 

Q. What do they call this room i A. Jet spinning room. 

Q. The abstract of laws recjuired by the Labor Law is posted 
where with reference to this closet ? A. Alx>ut fifteen feet away 
from it, to the right of the closet. 

Q. And this abstract of law bears the stamp it was examined 
by Inspector O'Rourke when? A. Thirteenth of — the stamj) 
is not clear when it was examined, but there is a stamp on it that 
it was examined. 

Q. Describe this closet. A. This closet has a door which has 
a space open below about 6 inches, both above and below the top 
of the door; the door is open in part, and there are piles of 
rollers on top too. All the odors of the closet go out into the main 



Frances Wieczork. 



185 



room where the men are working. The description will be the 
same as tlie other; it is not ventilated at all to the outer air. 

Q. Do you call that a typhoid fever trap? A. Yes. 

Q. Describe the conditions in the jack winder room, so-called? 
A. The belts and pulleys on jack winders on second floor are not 
guarded, the toilets are not designated for the sexes on this 
second floor. The last inspector's report of inspection of this floor 
was October 20, 1911. 

Q. Describe the fire escape opening on the first floor. A. It 
is a wooden ladder eigliteen inches wide attached to the wall at 
the side of the big open space about five feet wide, evidently used 
for the purpose of taking in merchandise. 

Q. It would require a pretty active person to get on there, 
wouldn't it? A. It would. It is part of the building. 

Frances Wieczork, an employee of the Utica Knitting 
Company, testified as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Were you born in this country ? A. Tupper Lake. 

Q. Where is that ? A. Up north. 

Q. North where? A. North, Canada. 

Q. When did you come here to Utica, how long ago? A. I 

don't know. 

Q. About how long ago? Were you a little girl or baby or 

what ? A. I was baby. 

Q. Does your father work too? A. Yes. 

Q. What does he do ? A. Machinery in the mill. 

Q. How many brothers and sisters have you got? A. Two 
brothers and eight sisters. 

Q. How much do you weigh, do you know ? A. No. 

Q. When you got your working papers how much did you 
weigh? A. Seventy pounds. 

Q. When did you first begin to work ? A. I can't remember. 

Q. Was it more than a year ago? Was it this year or last 
year? A. This year. 

Q. How old are you, did you say ? A. Fourteen. 

Q. You were only 14 in March ? A. Yes. 






I ' 



186 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



A. 



A. 



Q. And you work here laying-out and marking button holes i 
What do you mean by laying out i A. Lay out shirts. 
Q. Lay them on a table or what'^ A. With a bench. 
Q. Just put them straight, is that all ? A. Yes. 

By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. You stand all day, don't you i A. Yas. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. You get ten cents an hour when you lay out shirts^ 
Yes, sir. 

Q. And how much do you get when you do piece work ? 
How much checks I make. 

Q. How much do you get for each check ? A. I get one cent 
for union and a half a cent for shirts. 

Q. What do you do, take a piece of chalk and mark ? A. Pen- 
cil we take. 

Q. And mark where the button hole should be ? A. Yes. 

Q. How do you know where they are ? Do you get a measure 
or something ? A. No ; the button holes are so marked. 

Q. They are all marked and you just mark them with a pencil ? 
A. Yes. ^ 

Q. How many can you mark an hour ? A. Oh — 

Q. How many checks did you put in in a day ? A. About sev- 
enty. 

Q. How much do you get for each check ? A. For unions I get 
one cent and for shirts I get half a cent. 

Q. How much did you get last week, altogether? A. $4.40. 

Q. And you stand all day long ? A. Yes. 

Q. And you begin work at 8 o'clock in the moniing and stop 
when in the evening ? A. Ten to five. 

Q. Do you walk to your home? A. I live nearby, live in 
Thorn street. 

Q. How long does it take you to go home ? A. I don't know. 
Q. Half an hour or ten minutes or ^ve minutes ? A. I don't 
know. 

Q. Do you go to school here in TJtica ? A. I did. 

Q. When did you leave school ? A. I left in March. 

Q. Did you go through school? A. 'No. 

Q. Did you graduate? A. "No. 



Edna Main. 



187 



Q. How many more classes did you have to go before you 
would graduate? A. Two classes. 

Q. How many girls work in this room? A. About seventy- 
five, something like that. 

Edna Main, an employee of the Utica Knitting Company, 
testified as follows: 

Direct examination l)y Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How old are you ? A. Fifteen ; I was fifteen in March. 

Q. How long have you been working here? A. I started in 
January. 

Q. Where did you work before? A. In Roberts'; John A. 
Roberts. 

Q. What did you do there? A. Check girl. 

Q. How long did you work there ? A. I started about two weeks 
before Christmas and was just in along the holidays. 

Q. Before then did vou work? A. No. 

Q. You live in Utica, too ? A. Yes. 

Q. You born here ? A. Mv home town. 

Q. In Utica ? A. Yes. 

Q. What do you do now? A. Why, I carry mending to the 
inspectors. 

Q. Do you get paid by the day ? A. Yes ; same as she, ten cents 
an hour. 

Q. Do you stand all day? A. Well, I can sit down just as I 
please. 

Q. Well, can you sit down when you carry mending ? A. Well, 
then I have to look over some of those garments and when I look 
them over I sit down. 

Q. What do you look them over for ? A. I have to button them 
up and there is a lady has to inspect them. 

Q. You button them together ? A. Yes. 

Q. While vou do that vou sit down ? A. Yes. 

Q. And then vou deliver the mending — vou deliver it around 
to the different tables ? A. Yes. 

Q. Have you been sick since you have been here? A. No. 

Q. Have you ? A. The first few days I came in I was sick ; I 
had a bad headache. The noise made me have a headache. That 
is the only time I have been sick. 



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HEARING OF THE STATE FACTORY INVESTIGATING COMMIS- 
SION HELD AT THE PLANT OF THE DINGMAN COMPANY, 
LITTLE FALLS, N. Y., AUGUST 12, 1912. 



Present : 

Hon. Robert F. Wagnek, Chairman, 

Hon. Edwakd D. Jackson, 

Hon. Cyrus W. Phillips, 

Miss Mary E. Dreier, 

Frank A. Tierney, Esq., Secretary. 

Appearances: 

Hon. Abram L Elkus, Counsel to the Commission. 
Bernard L. Shientag, Esq., Assistant Counsel 

(At this plant, Andrew Yarvowski, 38 Germant street. Little 
Falls, ]Sr. Y., lost four fingers of his left hand three months ago, 
by being caught in machine. Received $100 compensation. Re- 
ceives fifteen cents an hour, ten hours a day. Information ob- 
tained from Frank Yarvowski. No record of building ever having 
been inspected by factory inspectors. Mr. Dingman is a member 
of the board of health of Little Falls. ) 

James E. Dingman, being duly sworn, testified as follows : 
Direct examination by Mr. Elkus : 

Q. What is the name of your company? A. The Dingman 
Company. 

Q. Who holds an interest in the business besides you ? A. A 
man by the name of Williams, Charles Williams, and Sim Greed. 
Q. Are you president ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long have you owned the business ? A. It was incorpo- 
rated in September, 1910. 

Q. And was the business before that a copartnership ? A. IN'o ; 
we just started in. 

Q. Started in in 1910? A. Yes. 

[188] 



James E. Dingman. 



189 



Q. This shoddy factory ? A. Yes. 

Q. What do you make? A. Mattress felts, upholstering felts 
we call them. 

Q. What do you make it of, rags? A. Rags and jute waste, 
cotton ducking. 

Q. Is it waste ? A. All waste, cotton waste, picker waste. 

Q. How many men do you employ? A. When we run night 
and day probably as many as thirty. We have regularly fifteen. 

Q. Are they all Poles ? A. And one Italian. 

Q. Do they work night and day often ? A. Well, busy season 
we do. 

Q. When is your busy season? A. December, March, April 
and May, usually. 

Q. How many hours do they work, twelve hours each? A. 
Day laborers eleven hours and night men thirteen. 

Q. What time does the night gang go on, six or five ? A. Six. 

Q. And working until when ? A. Seven the next morning. 

Q. What do you pay these men, by the week or day or hour? 
A. Well, they are paid by the hour, fifteen cents an hour, and 
some of them twenty cents, according to what they do. Fifteen 
is the regular schedule. 

Q. Night shift get the same as the day ? A. Yes. 

Q. How many of them get twenty cents? A. Foreman, and 
that fellow that was down there gets twenty cents. 

Q. The others get fifteen cents ? A. Some of them get sixteen 
and one-half, some seventeen and one-half ; majority get fifteen. 

Q. Have you ever been inspected by the Factory Department 
of the State Labor Department ? A. There was one here the other 
day, a lady.* 

Q. That is the first one you heard of ? A. Yes. 

Q. You belong to the health department of the town, don't you ? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Are you a member of the board or president, or what ? A. 
Just a member of it. 

Q. The onlv toilet we saw for the men was down there in the 
basement, a barrel; is that the only one they have? A. That is 
the only one we have got.** 



* The witness refers to a factory commission inspector. 
♦*See photograph, p. 432, Volume IT of the report. 



») 




190 



Minutes of Piblic ITeakings. 



Q. You know that is contrary to law, don't you ? A. 1 do. 
By Assemblyman Phillips : 

Q. Does the health board know it ? A. 1 don't think the health 
board has ever seen it. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. What other business are you in 't A. Ko other business. 

Q. You have your office somewhere else? A. Wc have an 
office over there. Mr. Williams is in there. He is the secretary 
and treasurer of the company. 

Q. And who is your board of health, besides yourself \ A. A 
man named Wiliam Benallen, Charles H. Smith, Jere Knight, 
Denis Eeardon. 

Q. Does your board of health ever inspect these factories in 
Little Falls ? A. No. 

Q. What do you do in the board of health? A. Somebody 
brings a complaint, we look it up. 

Q. You look it up ? A. Yes. 

Q. Is that about all you do, when somebody complains about a 
condition then you look it up ? A. Yes. 

Q. Then what do you do, turn it over to some officer? A. 
Health officer, the sanitary inspector. 

Q. What is the doctor's name ? A. Santry. 

Q. What is the first name ? A. August B. Santry. 

Q. Where is his office? A. Main street. 

Q. He is the health officer? A. He is health inspector. 

Q. And is there a sanitary inspector besides ? A. Yes. 
Q. What is his name? A. Philo Benallen. 

Q. What relation is he to the man on the board of health? 
A. Father. 

Q. The father is the inspector? A. Yes. 

Q. There is a nurse here, isn't there? Tuberculosis nurse? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Who brought her here? A. The Fortnightly Club. 
Q. What is her name ? A. Miss Schloss. 
Q. Who is president of the Fortnightly Club ? A. I don't know. 
Q. Do you know who runs it ? A. ft is a society of ladies in 
town. 



I 



James E. Dingman. 



191 



Q. Is there much tuberculosis here ? A. Quite a lot 

Q. Among your men, do they get sick with it here ? A. I have 
not heard of any. 

Q. How about typhoid fever, have you ever heard of any? 
A. Yes. 

Q. I notice a man had his finger chopped off ? A. I know. I 
could not tell you how it happened. I paid him $100 for it 

Q. How did it happen? A. I never could find out; he would 
not show us where it happened; absolutely refused. 

Q. And he took the hundred and signed a release? A. Yes. 

By Senator Wagneb: 

Q. How often does your board of health meet? A. Once a 
month. 

Q. And do the sanitary or unsanitary conditions of your fac- 
tories come before the board for consideration at all ? A. It never 
has. 

Q. N'o factory at all, as long as you have been a member? 
A. No. 

Q. How long have you been on the board? A. Three years 
the first of January. 

Q. In that three years there has not been a single complaint 
of the unsanitary condition of any factory in Little Falls? 
A. No. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How many factories are there? A. Gilbert Knitting Com- 
pany, two; the MacKimon Company, three; the Phoenix Under- 
wear Company, three; the McLaughlin Knitting Mills, four; the 
Little Falls Manufacturing Company; the Rex Knitting Com- 
pany, that is the Riverside Knitting Company, they are out of 
business now, bankrupt There are three of these shoddy mills, 
the woolen shoddy mills down below, and the Adirondacks Knit- 
ting Company; the Barnet Leather Company; the Lundstrom 
Company, the Hammer Works. 

Q. Did you ever see the factory inspector here, the State fac- 
tory inspector ? A. Mr. Lounsberry, I have seen him around here. 

Q. That is all ? A. He is from Utica, one of the deputy factory 
inspectors. 



192 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



James E. Dingman. 



193 



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Q. Have you seen him here ? A. Yes. 

Q. What was the date? A. I was up in the GiU>ert Knitting 
Company and I saw him there. 

Bj Senator Wagnek: 

Q. Was this place unoccupied before you came ? A. Yes. 
Q. Was that a grist mill originally ? A. Alachine shop. They 
manufactured mowing machines. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Do you ever do anything for the dust that rises from your 
work? A. Try. 

Q. What did you try to do ? A. Change the stock, put in fans. 
Q. Are there any fans in there now ? A. Yes. Oh, they are 
not; no. 

Q. Did you ever try to have exhausts ? A. ISTo ; never have. 
By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Do your men complain about the dust ? A. No. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. How long do you keep these men, these Poles ? A. These 
have been with me ever since this fellow got his finger off has 
been with me. 

By Senator Wagner : 

Q. Whom do you sell your stuff to ? A. The manufacturers in 
New York and jobbers. 

Q. Are these men married, these employees here ? A. Most of 
them are. 

By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. Their wives work? A. I don't know whether they work 
or not. 

Q. You said there has been considerable tuberculosis here; has 
it been among the men or women ? A. I think there were three 
cases at the Hammer shop and one at the MacKimon Knitting 
Mill. 

Q. Those three cases reported at the Hammer shop, what did 
they do? A. Machines. 



Q. After those three cases were reported at the Hammer shop, 
did your board of health look into it at all to see if they could 
find — A. It was only last Monday night they were reported. 

Q. And the other two were reported from where? A. The 
other was the Gilbert Knitting Mill. 

Q. How long ago was that ? A. Last month's report. 

Q. Of tuberculosis five cases at the Gilbert Mill ? A. No ; five 
cases reported since last month. 

Q. Why is it they have been reported recently, and not before ? 
A. This nurse. 

Q. She has stirred it up ? A. Yes. 

Q. They might have been reported before, but not having been 
reported you could not try to straighten it out ? A. No. 

Q. And you have not looked into these cases ? A. No, I have 
not 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Did you report this man's accident to the Labor Depart- 
ment ? A. I did not; I don't know whether the officers did. 

Q. What are you going to do about this closet of yours? 
A. Going to build one. 

By Senator Wagner : 

Q. Did your board of health ever go thoroughly into the ques- 
tion of the existence of tuberculosis in Little Falls ? A. Not since 
I have been a member of the board. 

Q. Not since you have been a member of the board of health ? 
A. No. 

Q. And this nurse was brought here by an entirely independent 
and voluntary body that had nothing to do with the city adminis- 
tration ? A. Yes. 

Q. They discovered that where your board of health did not ; 
that is the point, isn't it ? A. Yes. 

Q. And it is their paid nurse that reports these cases ? A. Yes ; 
she reports the cases to the board of health. 

Q. Where were you bom, in Utica ? A. In Alabenson, Hamil- 
ton county. New York. 

Q. What is the population of Little Falls ? A. 12,200, T think. 
Vol. Ill — 7 



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194 



Minutes of Ptbltc Hearings. 






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By Miss Dreier: 

Q. Do you think the conditions under which your workers work 
are healthy or not ? A. No. 

Q. Don't you think they could be improved upon ? Don't you 
think their condition should be more sanitary? A. Why — well, 
I don't know whether they could or not, unless we pass some law 
to stop their using this old rubbish that they gather up around 
the country. I favor some law of that kind. 

By Senator Wagner : 

Q. Do you think it is dangerous to use it? A. The dust is the 
only objection to it. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. This is not disinfected before it comes to you, is it ? A. Xo. 
Q. No disinfection at all? A. No. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. Where do the rags come from? A. We buy them from 
dealers. 

Q. Eag dealers ? A. Yes. 

Q. On the street ? A. Most of them from Utica and Buffalo. 

Q. Does your health inspector ever come around here anywhere ? 
A. He has never inspected. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Who inspects when there is a complaint made ? A. He does. 

Q. Is that the only time ? A. He is supposed to inspect every 

week. The health inspector has nothing to do with the factories. 



Hearing Held at the Plant of the Barnet Leather Co^r- 
PANY, Little Falls, N. Y., August 12, 1912. 

Present : 

Hon. Robert F. Wagner, Chairman, 

Hon. Edward D. Jackson, 

Hon. Cyrus W. Phillips, 

Miss Mary E. Dreier, 

Frank A. Tierney^ Esq., Secretary, 



Frank J. Thomas. 195 

Appearances: 

Hon. Abram I. Elkus, Counsel to the Commission. 
Bernard L. Shientag, Esq., Assistant Counsel. 

Frank J. Thomas, being duly sworn, testified as follows: 
Direct examination by Mr. Elkus: 

Q. What is the name of the concern? A. Barnet Leather 
Company. 

Q. Who is president? A. Morris Barnet. 
Q. Where is he, in New York ? A. Europe at present ; head- 
quarters in New York. 

Q. What is the headquarters address? A. 27 Spruce street. 

Q. You are superintendent, are you ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long have you been superintendent ? A. I have been 
here six years. 

Q. How many men do you employ? A. We have got about 
400; don't run even. From 350 to 400. 

Q. What are they, all foreigners? A. No, sir; all nationali- 
ties. 

Q. How many different departments have you? A. We have 
four departments. 

Q. What are they ? A. They are beam house, tan house, cel- 
lar, hide house, coloring and finishing house. 

Q. Have you any fire-escapes on this building ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where are they? A. On the next floor. 

Q. Are there any on this floor? A. No. 

Q. What kind of fire-escapes are they? A. Well, you can go 
up and see them. 

Q. Are there ladders or just balconies? A. Well, you go out 
on a place and walk down. 

Q. How much do these men get a week ? A. They make about 
$15 and $16 a week; these boys make $8 a week. 

Q. These over here? A. They get $10.50 a week. 

Q. How many hours do they work? A. Ten hours; if they 
work overtime they get paid for that ; mostly piece-work, though. 

Q. Any women employed here? A. No, sir. 



il 



196 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Miss M. Ella Schloss. 



197 






■ A 



By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. Do you have much overtime? A. Now, we don't; in the 
winter we generally work about .twelve hours. 

Q. Why do you work more in the winter than summer? A. 
According to business. 

Q. Why, is there more business ? A. We have more orders to 
fill ; have to fill the orders. 

Q. I was wondering why they came in the winter instead of 
summer? A. They make more shoes. We probably won't have 
to run overtime when we get in our new plant. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Why don't you have more light on the fioor below here? 
A. We have plenty of lights if they have a mind to put them on. 

Q. I mean natural light? A. We can't have more light in this 
place. We have plenty of light in the new building. 

Q. Have you a new building? A. Yes; I will take you over 
there. 

Q. Are you going to give up this building? A. This will be 
used as a drying room when we get moved. We can't start over 
there until we get the power house done. 

Q. How long have you been in this building? A. I presume 
this building has been here for fifty years ; I don't know. 

Q. Any of your men get sick? A. Not very often; this is a 
very healthy business, tanning; very healthy. 

Q. Why ? A. I don't know. You never see a sick man unless 
they get drunk and get sick after that Monday they get siok 
sometimes ; the only time we are bothered with sickness here. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. How often does the State Inspector from the Labor Depart- 
ment come here? A. Two or three times a year. 

Q. What is his name? A. I don't remember liis name; he is 
an oldish man. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. Clean shaven, gray hair? A. Yes, same one that has been 
here for years. 



By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Does your local board of health ever inspect the premises ? 
A. I don't know. I remember Doctor Santry being down here 
once; that is all I remember. 

Q. That is in the six years you have been here? A. Well, 
they have a new man every year. That other fellow was down 
here last summer a couple of times. 

Q. Did the health inspector go through the entire building 
when he was here? A. I could not say as to that. I did not 
go with him any more than I started to meet you fellows to-day. 

Q. He didn't say anything to you afterwards ? A. No. If 
you see anything wrong, tell me of it. 

Q. What kind of accidents do you have? A. Once in a while 
a man is hurt on a shaving machine. 



Hearing of the State Factory Ivestigating Commission, 
Held at the Eichmond Hotel, Little Falls, N. Y., 
August 12, 1912. 

Present: 

Hon. Robert F. Wagner^ Chairman, 

Hon. Edward D. Jackson, 

Hon. Cyrus W. Phillips, 

Miss Mary E. Dkeieb, 

Frank A. Tierney, Esq., Secretary, 

Appearances: 

Hon. Abram I. Elkus, Counsel to the Commission, 
Bernard L. Shientag, Esq., Assistant Counsel, 

Miss M. Ella Schloss, being duly sworn, testified as fol- 
lows : 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Where do you live ? A. In Little Falls. 

Q. How long have you been living here ? A. Three months. 

Q. Where is your permanent office address ? A. New York. 



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198 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. What are you by profession? A. Trained nurse. 

Q. How long have you been a trained nurse? A. Nine years. 

Q. And you are a graduate of what institution ? A. The Ger- 
man Hospital. 

Q. That is the German Hospital, New York city ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Miss Schloss, how did you happen to come to Little Falls? 
A. They wrote to me in Malone, New York, to come on here. 

Q. Who wrote you ? A. The president of the Fortnightly Club. 

Q. Who is that? A. Mrs. Arthur Sheard. 

Q. You have made a specialty of tuberculosis cases? A. For 
the last three years I made a specialty of tuberculosis, but in with 
that I did other work, too, as it came under my observation. 

Q. How long had you been in Malone before you came here? 
A. Ten weeks. 

Q. Before that ? A. I was in the New York Board of Health 
Department. 

Q. How long were you in with the New York Board of Health ? 
A. One year. 

Q. What were you, their health inspector? A. I was tuber- 
culosis nurse for six months and six months I was in charge of 
the hygiene in schools. 

Q. What do you do here ? Tell us in your own way. A. When 
I first came I had nothing. I was just organizing the work and 
finding the cases. The few cases the department reported I 
visited. 

Q. Doctor Santry? A. Yes. There were ten cases on hand 
when I first came, and I visited all those ten cases and instructed 
them. We had leaflets to instruct them just how to take care of 
themselves, then I looked around for other cases. 

Q. What was being done before you came here? A. Absolutely 
nothing, they were just reported to a health officer. 

Q. And allowed to do as they pleased? A. Allowed to do as 
they pleased, and fumigation wherever there was a death of 
tuberculosis. 

Q. And they would wait until a man was dead ? A. Yes. Well, 
I don't know; I would not say that, but all T know is that all 
deaths have been reported to the health officer and he would fumi- 



Miss M. Ella Schloss. 



199 



gate, and I think he made the determination whether to fumigate 

others. 

Q. These ten cases you told us of; were they attended by any 
physician at all ? A. Yes ; they have all had a doctor. 

Q. But no nurses, though ? A. No nurses of a social order, no. 

Q. That is, they had home nursing, their wives? A. Yes; 
their wives. 

Q. What did you do, organize the work ? A. I first had to visit 
all the doctors and get their co-operation. 

Q. All of the physicians ? A. Yes ; and some of them were send- 
ing me their cases and some were not. At last we found a good 
many cases that were not really reported. We found a good 
many cases that way, and then we had a meeting of the doctors 
and the doctors decided to have a clinic, that is a company clinic, 
and we organized this company clinic and opened it, and now it 
is in operation. 

Q. Where is it ? A. 542 East Main street. 

Q. Your clinic is where people go for treatment? A. No. 
We have twice a week, at first we had twice a week and now we 
closed the clinic and have it just once a week, every Friday from 
two to four. Of course, this is just an experiment and we will 
have to adjust things as we go along. 

Q. What do they do in the clinic? A. The doctors examine 
cases. 

Q. Volunteer physicians? A. Yes; volunteer physicians. 

Q. They examine cases and prescribe ? A. Not all cases. They 
diagnose the case, more than prescribe. 

Q. How many cases are there now of tuberculosis ? A. Twenty- 
two positive cases. 

Q. How many doubtful? A. Well, there must be about five. 

Q. How many cases have there been altogether, since you have 
been here ? A. You mean reported ? 

Q. Yes. A. There were about thirteen cases reported since I 
have been here, that I know of. 

Q. What do these men work at now, the twenty-two ? Are they 
men or women ? A. Well, they are mixed pretty much. Do you 
want to know the exact number ? 



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200 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Miss M. Ella Schloss. 



201 



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Q. Yes. I want to know the particulars, mostly what they are. 
A. Most of them are just common laborers. 

Q. What do you mean by common laborers? What do they 
do ? A, Mill hands, machine shops. 

Q. We want to know what kind of a mill they are in. A. They 
are pretty much mixed. They are in mercantile mills, then there 
are the machine shops — 

Q. (Interrupting) Are there any in the leather factory? A. I 
haven't found any yet. 

Q. Are there any in the shoddy mills? A. I haven't found 
any yet. I am looking for them. 

Q. In the Hammer place ? A. In the Hammer place three. 

Q. Hammer place? A. Yes; G.D. Hammer shop. 

Q. Where are the others, in mills? A. Well, you see, they 
move around so much; they work in one place, for instance, we 
had a boy we sent to Ray Brook, he worked at the Rex Knitting 
Mill ; when he went sick he left and tried to get odd jobs around 
town. 

Q. Of the twenty-two cases now existing, how many worked in 
factories or did work in factories at the time thev were taken 
ill ? A. About half of them. 

Q. What are the other half of them? A. Well, I would say 
about three-quarters of them. The other quarter would be the 
women. 1 * 

Q. Do you know whether any of those cases, take the women 
for instance, received the disease l>eeause of their infection from 
somebody else? Are they in the same family? A. Well, yes; 
we found infection in the familv. I will tell vou a case where 
there has been a direct infection. A young man who has had the 
disease, although he did not work in any factory, just common 
laborer, a woman was taking care of him, he was a boarder, and 
the woman did not know just how to take care of him and she is 
infected, directly infected. 

Q. What did you do to teach them how to take care of them- 
selves? A. I tried to teach them to have separate rooms and 
separate beds, and where it is not possible for them to have it, we 
supplied it. Many times they rejected it. 



Q. That is a matter of charity ? A. Yes. We tried to do thai 
and I make periodical visits just as often as possible. Some- 
times I have to call almost every day, and many times I don't 
have to call but once a week. It all depends on the intelligence 
of the patient. 

Q. Are these people all natives or foreigners ? A. Well, there 
are three Americans; most of them are foreigners. 



By Senator Wagner : 

Q. Poles, usually? A. Poles, Slavs, 
with the exception of one suspected case. 



I found no Italians. 



Bv Mr. Elkus: 

Q. From what you know, you believe there are more cases here 
than those reported? A. Oh, yes; there are quite a number of 
them. You see, I am only here three months and the only way 
to get them is to really get the doctx)rs to report the cases and 
have the people come and submit to voluntary examinations. We 
have had four cases found at the clinic which were not reported 

at all. 

Q. Do you know anything, Miss Schloss, about the conditions 
in the factories themselves, with reference to producing tuber- 
culosis ? A. Well, the conditions are that cases that were almost 
in the very last stages were working alongside of their fellow 
men and will, perhaps, expectorate on the floor, it is my experi- 
ence. I have been in the mills and I have gone through the card- 
ing rooms where it looks almost like a snow storm, and I have gone 
there with my leaflets and I have become almost exhausted from 
that fuzzy stuff in the air, and I should imagine that would pro- 
duce tuberculosis. 

Q. Which particular mill do you refer to? A. I have only 
been through two mills, that was the Adams mill and the Gilbert 
mill, so far, but I will go through all the mills. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. You went to two of them, you say? A. Yes; two textile 
mills. 

Q. Are sanitary conditions in them good? A. I don't know 
anything about that. I did not investigate the sanitary condi- 






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tions; but it impressed me as not being a very healthy place to 
work in. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Was there anybody in the Gilbei-t mill or Adams mill who 
had tuberculosis? A. Not in the Adams mill; but there are a 
few in the Gilbert mill working but I can't get them out because 
they have got to work there. 

Q. Are they cases reported to you or that you found ? A. One 
case was reported, but one case is suspected now, and I think is 
a tubercular in the last stages, but we haven't found the germs 
and can't be positive. I went through the mill and he was 
working in what we call the combing room and there were two 
men there and I looked around and sort of glanced him over and 
asked the man with me, the manager, what he was doing there 
and he said he did not know, and I asked him to come to the 
clinic and on examination the doctor found one of his lungs was 
solid and could not get a sound out of it, and the sputum does 
not tell us anything. But he is not working there any more. 

Q. When you worked at Malone there were factories there too, 
weren't there? A. Yes; quite a number of woolen mills. 

Q. How many cases of tuberculosis did you find ? A. We had 
about 30 cases. 

Q. Were you working there the same way, for a society? A. 
Yes; the Tuberculosis Committee. 

Q. Did you establish a clinic there also? A. Yes. 

Q. And were they foreigners, too, most of them? A. No. 
They are French-Canadian class; most of them are Americans. 

Q. What kind of mills are they in which such people work? 
A. There are two woolen mills and there are machine shops that 
the road has, the Grand Central; and there is a paper mill. 
It is pretty busy. 

Q. Of those thirty cases, the majority of them or more than a 
majority of them were working in the mills? A. Oh, no; they 
were all kinds. One was a painter. Just pretty much mixed. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Have you been able to look into the home life of these 
factory workers ? A. Here in this town ? 



Miss M. Ella Schloss. 



203 



Q. Yes. A. Yes. I am always going to their homes. I can 
tell you a good deal of their home life. 

Q. What is there about the home life here ? A. The most strik- 
ing thing about the home life is that they are piled into one 
house and just swarm like bees in a hive. That is one thing 
that impressed me. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How many families in a house ? A. There are from two to 

about five families. 

Q. How many floors will that house have? A. It would be 

about two floors. 

Q. How many rooms would each family have? A. Three; 

three or four rooms. 

Q. And how many people would be in a three or four-room 
space ? A. Five or six people. Here is something we never can 
get at right ; they never tell you, unless we stand and count them 
as they go in. I have counted ten in one room I have been in a 
house together. 

Q. What are those, Italians or Poles? A. Well, Poles or 
Slavs; I don't know. I don't just know which they are Slavs or 
Hungarians. I have been in a room that was very clean and 
women upon the floor and two beds and six girls sleeping in 
that room, just two windows there. 

Q. Were they children or boarders? A. They were women 

boarders. 

Q. Working in the mills ? A. Working in the mills. You see, 
the people come here in companies and live in companies. They 
all live in a sort of — communistic way, they get the groceries 
in the store and have one housekeeper and pile as many as pos- 
sible into 'one house, because it is cheaper. 

Q. How much do these girls get? A. I could not tell you. 
Some of them claim they earn as high as $10 a week. I have 
not heard of any running over. 

Q. Do these girls stay permanently, or go back ? A. Some of 
them stay permanently, but they are pretty floating, as far as I 

have observed. 

Q. Foreign girls ? A. Well, they stay here a few years to earn 



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enough moDey and they either get married and take iu boarders, 
ten or twelve boarders, or go back to the old country. 

Q. Are they clean ? A. The Italians are dirty, but the Slavs 
and Poles are cleaner than the Italians. 

Q. What about the sanitary an*angements — toilets? A. The 
toilets are very good, that is the plumbing in this town is fairly 
good ; but the houses are not kept up. The walls are filthy dirty, 
and they are very dirty anyway, the houses like you passed around 
here, — the way they look outside, practically, they look inside 
the same way. The paper is not put on. 

Q. Wooden houses? A. Wooden houses. And when they 
move out they don't usually get another coat of paper or paint. 
Very little repairing is done in these tenements. 

Ey Senator Wagner: 

Q. Don't the local authorities look into that? A. We are try- 
ing to do it now. 

Q. You are doing it for a voluntary association, aren't you? 
For a club? A. Yes; and the Board of Health have appointed 
me as Assistant Health Inspector so I could get into the homes. 

Bv Mr. Elkus: 

Q. They don't pay you ? A. I^o. 

Q. You have got authority from them, otherwise you would 
not have the right to go in ? A. No. 

Bv Senator Wagner : 

4/ 

Q. You are paid by subscription you say? A. The Fort- 
nightly Club have sold stamps last Christmas to get a nurse; 
enough money for the nurse hire for a year. 

By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. What is the history of this conununity way of living? Why 
do they go into that ? A. I don't know. I can't talk to them very 
well so they could not explain. But others have explained. I 
presume it is cheaper to live that way. 

Q. Do they bring that from the old country? A. They come 
in companies and they live in companies, so they are not very 
lonely, you see. 



Miss M. Ella Schloss. 205 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Are the morals pretty good? A. Yes. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Have you seen anything of the work at home, their working 
at home for the shops? A. Yes. 

Q. Is there much of that ? A. A great deal of it. 

Q. What people do it ? What nationalities ? A. Well, most of 
the Italians, from what I have observed. 

Q. What do they do ? - What kind of work ? A. I have not seen 
very much of this fuzzy fleece lined clothes going out, but I did 
see'a good many of these felt shoes going out, and of a morning, 
standing at the factory, you will see swarms of children coming 
ill with wagons all covered up filled with shoes. 

Q. What factory makes those shoes? A. Up on Main street. 

Q. What factory is that ? A. I don't know the name. 

Q. That is right here on Main street? A. Yes. 

Q. Do the children makes these things ? A. In the homes they 

do, but not in the factories. 

Q How old are these children at home? A. Well, I have had 

little ones tell me, '' I sewed them all myself;" so you can inmgme. 
Q. Are they kept home from school? A. Ko; they only do 

that during vacation. 

Q And after school hours ? A. I presume so ; yes. 

Q Where do they do it, right in the living room where they 
live and sleep? A. I will tell you where I saw some of them, 
some of these slippers. I went into an Italian home and the house 
was very dirtv and the mother had taken the baby out of the crib 
and the baby^iad done his duty in the crib and there was a pile 
of slippers in this crib thrown right against the wall and bed-bugs 

fi'oing in and out the wall. 

^ Q. I show you a photograph; were you present when that was 

taken? A. No, sir. 

Q. Do you recognize that as a sight which you have seen of 

children at work ? A. Yes. 

Q. Is that a fair representation of what goes on here ot 

children working at home ? A. Yes. 



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Db. Augustus B. Santet. 



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Q. And I show joii another photograph, two more families 
where children work at home here in Little Falls. A. Yes. 

Q. Do you recognize those as being — A. I don't recognize 
these little girls, but I imagine this is the little one. Yes; I 
know this woman (indicating). 

Q. You recognize this as showing people whom you have seen 
thus working ? A. Yes ; that I have seen carrying slippers back 
and forth. 

By Miss Deeier: 

Q. In the homes where there is tuberculosis, is home work also 
being done? A. Well, there was one family that was making 
these cotton lined clothes where there was a case of tuberculosis. 

By Senator Wagneb : 

Q. Have you had any co-operation on the part of the manu- 
facturers in going into the factory and examining employees? 
A. I have had very little encouragement. There was one mill 
refused to allow me to go through. He said if I wanted to give 
the leaflets out I could stand at the door and give them out. That 
was at the MacKimon mill. And that is almost an impossibility, 
because they rush out so when the whistle blows. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. They would not let you go. in and give out these leaflets ? 
What are these leaflets called ? What are they for ? A. They are 
what we call "Don't cards," just instructing how to prevent 
tuberculosis and how to take care of ones self when they have 
tuberculosis. 

Q. Why wouldn't they let you in ? A. Mr. MacKimon — Mr. 
McLaughlin don't like me very well because of a letter that ap- 
peared in the textile papers. It wasn't I that sent the letter, but 
it was sent to the paper and the paper put it in, and he said 
there was no sense doing the work in Salvation Army fashion, 
and I suppose he is against me for that. 

By Miss Deeier: 

Q. But the health officer has got authority to go into the fac- 
tories, apparently ? A. He has. 



Q. He could get in in spite of Mr. McLaughlin ? A. Yes. I 
did not want to quarrel with him, but I want to try once more. 
If he don't do it willingly, I will have to do it with the doctor's 
authority. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. In New York city, I presume, you did this same work for 
the New York health department ? A. Yes; but it was different. 
That was just a great, organized system, where I was just a cog 
in the wheel. I did not have any planning or organization to do. 

Q. You were one of the persons who carried out the plans they 
organized? A. Yes. 

By Miss Deeiee: 

Q. Do you think that if you could make an examination of the 
mill workers that you will find incipient tuberculosis ? A. Yes ; 

a great deal more. 

Q. Have you tried to get the co-operation of the manufacturers 
in making such examination? A. I have. I feel very grateful 
that they even let me go through. 

Dr. Augustus B. Santey, being duly sworn, testified a« 
follows : 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus : 

Q. You are a physician by profession? A. Yes. 

Q. And have been for how long ? A. Since 1896. 

Q And your office is here in Little Falls ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you are the health officer of Little Falls? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you receive a salary as such ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How much a year do you get ? A. $500 a year ; and I have 
been health officer since March first. 

Q. Who was your predecessor? A. W. P. Earle. 

Q. Is he living? A. President of the board of health. 

q'. And the board of health consists of how many people? 
A. Six members and the mayor, making the seventh member. 

Q. And you have authority, have you, in this city, over every 
building in it so far as ascertaining what is sanitary and what is 
unsanitary? A. I think so. 



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Q. And jou have tlie power to make them correct anything that 
is wrong 'i A. I believe so. 

Q. Bo you have any regular system of inspection i A. We have 
a sanitary inspector who is paid $30 a month, lie is an old man. 

Q. What is his name i A. Philo Benallen. 

Q. He is the father of one of the members of the board of 
health ? A. Yes. 

Q. He gets $80 a month ? A. Yes. 
Q. How old is he? A. Sixty or sixty-five. 
Q. A good deal of a sinecure, is it ? A. He takes care of what 
he knows. 

Q. If anybody makes a complaint to him he reports it to the 
board of health ? A. Eeports it to the health otiicer. 

Q. That is all ? A. And inspects outside places, outside closets. 

Q. Does he go and make inspections unless somebody calls his 
attention to it ? A. Xo ; it hasn't been — 

Q. (Interrupting) Do you keep any record of any inspections 
he does make? Are there any records at all in your department ? 
A. Where I sent a notice, if it is bad enough to send a notice, it 
would speak about that. 

Q. It has got to be pretty bad to do that ? A. Xo ; most of 
them are sent. 

Q'. We inspected the premises of a member of your board of 
health, Mr. Dingman. Did you ever see his premises ? A. Xo, 
I haven't. 

Q. Did you ever know there was no toilet there at all ? A. ]^o, 
sir. 

Q. Did you ever know they used a barrel that was open and 
exposed, and nothing else? A. ISTever was in the place at all, sir. 

Q. Doctor, what do you think ought to be done to improve 
these conditions? A. I believe there ought to be an inspector 
who could make regular visits there and see that these things are 
cleared up. 

Q. You heard described the conditions of these houses, these 
tenement houses ? A. She has described them to me about as she 
has to you. 

Q. Well, you no doubt have got her descriptions accurately? 
A. Yes, sir. 



T>B^ Augustus B. Santey. 



209 



Q. You realize that is a very dangerous thing, don't you ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. And something ought to be done to remove them? A. Oh, 
yes. 

Q. Well, does your city board of health ever take this subject 
up and seek to remedy it ? A. We never have done that, no, sir. 

Q. Have you many bakers here? A. I don't know just how 
many. The inspector was here the other day, Mr. Bates from 
Utica. He inspected them. I don't think there are many — four 
or five. 

Q. Are the bakeshops below the level of the street ? A. I could 
not tell you. 

Q. You never visited them? A. l^o. 

Q. There is no local inspection at all? A. I understand that 
is under the State Factory Law inspection. 

Q. W^ell, you have the right to inspect them for sanitary pur- 
poses, haven't you? A. Yes. 

Q. And see if there are any toilets and proper conditions there ? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Of course, these toilets like the one I have described in the 
Dingman factory are typhoid breeders, aren't they? A. Every- 
thing empties into the sewer or the Mohawk river. There is 
where we sewer. 

Q. Well, I know ; but Jiere the matter is left open for we don't 
know how long. A. That is probably a creek sewer. 

Q. Others the same way ? A. Yes. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Are the other members of your board of health aU manufac- 
turers in the town, outside of the president, who is a doctor ? A. 
There is one doctor required by law. 

Q. One doctor and five other members? A. Five other mem- 
bers, yes, sir. 

Q. Now, do you just off-hand know whether all these five other 
members are manufacturers in this city? A. One is a manufac- 
turer, one is a merchant, one of them a merchant, one is a grocery- 
man, Dingman is a manufacturer and Benallen is a barber, one 
is a clothing merchant and Doesch is a groceryman. 






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By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Have you any sanitary code here? A. We have what we 
call rules and regulations. 

Q. Where are they ? Have you got a copy of them ? A. No, 
I haven't; they are very ancient. We have got a committee ap- 
pointed to revise them. 

Q. How old are they ? A. Must be ten or fifteen years old, I 

guess. 

Q. Have you a copy of them in your office ? A. Yes. 

Q. Will you send a copy of them to Doctor Price? A. Yes, 
I will. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. And you don't ever inspect the factories in this city at all 
to find out whether they are being conducted in a sanitary con- 
dition or not ? A. We never have. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. You rely entirely upon the State Labor Department as to 
conditions in factories and how many people work in them ? A. 
Never pay any attention to it. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. How about the families ? I mean the houses and the con- 
ditions in which they live ? A. Unless there is an infectious dis- 
ease like tuberculosis or typhoid fever or measles or scarlet fever, 
of course then we fumigate. 

Q. Otherwise you don't pay any attention ? A. No. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. No inspection of sanitary arrangements? A. No; haven't 
anything in the code that requires it. I don't know about con- 
tagious diseases, whether we have had any. 

By Miss Dreier : 

Q. Is there a building code ? A. We have no building code. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. You have the power to compel these people to clean their 
houses. You have the power to abate a nuisance? A. Yes. 



Dr. Augustus B. Santry. 



211 



Q. Well, you consider a house such as Miss Schloss described 
certainly a filthy place? A. Yes. 

Q. You have power to stop that, haven't you? A. I don't 
know whether I have power to keep out people, over the number of 
people in the house. 

Q. I haven't asked that. I asked about the conditions, filthy 
and dirty conditions she described. A. Yes, I think we have 
power to clean that out. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Have you a building code ? A. No. 
Q. Tenement-house code, either ? A. No. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Who prescribes how buildings shall be built? Can a man 
put up a building without submitting some plans ? A. I don't 
think anything but the city charter. 

Q. This is a city of what class ? A. Third class. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Your department doesn't know anything about the condi- 
tions described before you a few minutes ago, about so many 
women living in one room ? A. We have never taken action on it. 
Of course, I, as a physician, knew of these conditions. 

Q. The local authorities have not taken any interest in it ? A. 
We haven't taken any action. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. I want to ask your opinion as a physician. These things 
ought to be remedied, had they not? A. Yes; and I should be 
very glad to go ahead myself. 

Q. You think you ought to have a regular system of inspection 
with power to remove those conditions ? A. Yes. 

Q. That is necessary in order to preserve health? A. Espe- 
cially on this tuberculosis question. There is one woman I exam- 
ined the other day who had tuberculosis, and she said I feel good, 
work every day and have a fine appetite, and she is working right 
along in Lundstrom's factory all the time, and she is apt to infect 
anybody who comes in contact with her. 






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Bv Miss Dreiee; 

Q. How large a percentage of foreigners have you got here ? A. 
I could not give an intelligent answer; but we have had a great 
many lately, the last five or six years. 

Q. Been coming in? A. Yes; Italians and Slavs have been 
employed more in the last five or six years in the mills. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Who brings them? A. Well, a family comes and brings 
their friends and they live together. 

Q. What is the death rate ? A. I could not tell you exactly, sir. 

Q. Do the children of these Poles and Slavs go to schools ? A. 
Yes. 

Q. Do they become Americanized? A. Yes. 

Q. Do the men become citizens? A. Yes. 

By Miss Deeier: 

Q. Do you do anything about enforcing the Mercantile Law? 
A. No, I do not. I called the Labor Department's attention to it 
and had a letter from Mr. Whalen the other day, about a boy 
working at the Western Union. He said he was a Pole. That is 
the first I knew of it. 

Bv Mr. Elkus: 

t, 

Q. I suppose it is the duty of you citizens of cities of the 
third class to enforce the 'Child Labor Law ? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you examine children who apply for working certifi- 
cates? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How many have you granted? A. I remember I granted 
about 12 last July. 

Q. How old were they ? A. Well, they should be fourteen. 

Q. Are they all foreign bom ? A. l^o. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Did you reject any? A. No. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. How did you find out the age of these children ? Does 
your Board of Health keep track of them? A. Well, they must 



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Dr. Augustus B. Santry. 



213 



have their birth certificates wherever they are born, a copy of 
the birth certificate. If they haven't that they must be passed 
upon by the Board of Health, they must appear before the Board 
of Health. 

Q. Do you make a physical examination? A. No; no more 
than their height and weight. 

Q. Don't you know under the new law you are required to 
make a physical examination? A. Not in force yet. We will 
have to obey that law. We have had blanks we have had a good 
many years, just height and color of eyes and hair and weight, 
and we have been using those. 

Q. Do you believe you ought to be authorized, as the new law 
does authorize you, to make a physical examination? A. Yes; 
I think so. 



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HEARING OF THE STATE FACTORY INVESTIGATING COMMIS- 
SION, HELD AT THE PLANT OF THE FORT STANWIX CAN- 
NING COMPANY, ROME, N. Y., AUGUST 13, 1912. 



Present : 

Hon. Egbert F. Wagner, Chairman, 
Hon. Edward D. Jackson, 
Hon. Cyrus W. Phillips, 
Miss Mary E. Dreier. 

Appearances: 

Mon. Abram I. Elkus, Counsel to the Commission. 
Bernard L. Shientag, Esq., Assistant Counsel. 

Dora Baker, called as a witness, testified as follows: 

Direct-examination by Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How old are yon, Dora ? A. I will be nine years old the 
3d of December. 

Q. How long have you worked here? A. Worked here last 
year and am working here this year. 

Q. Do you know how many hours you work ? A. Work late at 
night sometimes. 

Q. Do you sleep sometimes while at work ? A. ]N"ever sleep at 
work. 

Q. Would you rather be playing tag out in the street than 
working here ? A. Yes. 

Q. Does your mother work here too? A. My mothers works 
on the benches. 

Q. Whom are you accompanied by ? A. My aunt is with me ; 
we are working in the shed. 

Q. Does your father work here too? A. "No. Father works 
in the mill. 

[214] 



Viola Baker. 

Q. Have you got any brothers and sisters? 
and one sister. 

Q. Do you go to school ? A. Yes. 



215 



A. One brother 



Viola Baker, called as a witness for the Commission, testi- 
fied as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Do you know what your father's name is ? A. Roy Baker. 
Q. What does your father do? What does he work at? A. 
He works at iron and brass. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Whom does he work with ? A. !N'o ; I don't know. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. What is your mother's name? A. Belle Baker. 

Q. And she works here too, right in this place? A. On the 
table she works. 

Q. What time does she come to work in the morning? A. I 
don't know. 

Q. Do you go to school, too, in the winter time ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long have you gone to school ? How many years ? A. 
Two years. 

Q. And did you work here last year ? A. Yes. 

Q. Pickling beans, or what ? A. Snipping beans. 

Q. Did you work the year before ? A. Xo, I don't know. 

Q. How old are you now ? A. I am going on nine. 

Q. When is your birthday? A. Next December. 

Q. Next December you will be nine years old ? A. Yes. 

Q. And what time last year did you work ? Did you work at 
night when they were burning electric light? A. I don't know 
when I worked. 

Q. Do you know what time you started in the morning? A. 
About seven o'clock. 

Q. Did you work after supper? A. No; I didn't work after 
supper. 

Q. Do you get tired when you work here ? A. Not very much. 

Q. A little? A. Sometimes I do. 



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Q. Does it liurt your fingers? A. Not very much. 
Q. A little ? A. A little it does, but uot very much. 
Q. What do you do when you don't work, play ? A. Home. 
Q. How much money did you make? A. Well, I don't know 
how much I made. 

By Senator Waqnek: 

Q. Does your mamma get the money ? A. Yes. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Did you work here last week ? A. No, I did not work last 
week. 

Q. Is this the first day you worked this summer? A. Yes. 

By Miss Deeiee: 

Q. Have you got any brothers and sisters? A. I got one 
brother. 

Q. How old is he? A. He is only five. 

Q. How^ old ? A. He is five. 

Q. He is not here, is he ? A. No ; he didn't come here. 

Q. Who takes care of him when vour mother is here? A. Mv 
aunt. 

Q. And you come here to work ? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you know how much money you made? A. No, I do 
not know. 

Q. Did you ever know how much money you make a day ? A. 
No, ma'am. 

Q. Do you know how many beans you pick ? A. I don't pick. 

Q. Do you know how many beans you snip ? A. No ma'am, 
because mamma gets that. 

Q. Do you carry the boxes over to the weighman? A. No, I 
don't. 

Q. You don't know how many boxes were taken there ? A. No. 

Q. Who takes them for you? A. Mamma does. 

Q. Does she work besides vou ? A. Yes. 

Q. How can she carry them when she works at the tables ? A. 
My aunt goes over. 

Q. What is her name? A. Irene. 



By Miss Dreier: 

Q. What is your address ? A. 703 Floyd Street. 

Steve Orsley, called as a witness, testified as follows: 

Direct examination bv Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How old are you? A. Nine. 

Q. When will you be nine years old? A. February 16th. 

Q. Do you go to school? A. Yes. 

Q. Where do you live? A. Henry Street. 

Q. What is the number, do you know? A. 411. 

Q. Have you got a mother, too? A. Yes. 

Q. Where does she work? A. She doesn't work. 

Q. She stays home? A. Yes. 

Q. Where does your father work? A. In a bedstead factory. 

Q. Did you work here last year ? A. Yes. 

Q. And the year before ? A. No. 

Q. What do you do, sit here and snip beans or pick beans, or 
what? A. Snip beans. 

Q. Is this the first day you worked here or did you work here 
before? A. Worked here before. 

Q. When, last week or the week before? A. Last week. 

Q. What time did you commence in the morning last week? 
A. I don't know. 

Q. Was it before breakfast or after breakfast? A. After 
breakfast. 

Q. What time did you have breakfast, seven o'clock ? A. Yes ; 
when father goes to work. 

Q. Did you come right here with your father or afterward? 
A. I came here with my sisters. 

Q. Two sisters or one? A. Three sisters. 

Q. Are they older than you or younger ? A. Older. 

Q. Do they all work here, too? A. Yes; the three of them 
work here. 

Q. Out in the shed or inside ? A. In the shed. 

Q. And how late do you stay here? How late did you stay 
last week, after supper or what? A. Until noon. 



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Minutes of Public Heakings. 



Bernice Gertrude Hagerty. 



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Q. Then you went home for your dinner ? A. j^o ; went out to 
the playgrounds. 

Q. When you worked here last year did you work in the night ? 
A. Until late. 

Q. How often ? A. Ten o'clock at night. 
Q. Until ten o'clock at night ? A. Yes. 

Q. What time did you begin in the morning, right after break- 
fast? A. Yes. 

Q. Snipping beans all day long ? A. Yes. 
Q. How much did you make that day, do you know? A. 
Thirty-three cents. 

Q. For the day you worked until ten o'clock at night? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you start right after breakfast in the morning? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. And worked until ten o'clock at night? A. Yes. 

Q. Does it hurt your fingers when you snip beans? A. Xo, 
sir. 

By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. Did you work steadily all the time in the day ? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. You are not working this morning yet ? A. N'ot any beans 

yet. 

Mr. Elkus : You may ask any questions you like, Mr. Olney. 
By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. Do you work in rainy weather? A. Xo. 

By Mr. James P. Olney: 

Q. Do you mean to say you worked all day from 7 o'clock in 
the morning until 10 at night? A. Yes. 

Q. All day ? A. Yes ; and used to go to the show after the day 
for nothing; used to go to the show. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Who took you to the show ? A. Nobody ; my father knows 
that man. 



Gertrude Coleman, a witness for the Commission, testified 
as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How old are you ? A. Ten. 

Q. When were you ten years old?* A. Yesterday. 

Q. That was your birthday? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you work here last year? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. The year before last too? A. Yes. 

Q. Was that the first year you worked, two years ago? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. What do you do, snip beans ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What time do you start working in the morning? A. Seven 
o'clock. 

Q. What time do you stop at night ? A. I go home at noon. 

Q. And do you stay home ? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you ever work at night time here? A. 'No, 

Q. Work in the afternoon? A. Yes. 

Q. Never worked at night? A. No. 

Q. Did you work here before this year ? I mean, did you work 
last week ? A. Yes. 

Q. Worked from 7 o'clock until noon? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you go home in the afternoon? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you ever work under the lights, when the lights were 
lighted here ? A. Yes. 

Q. You worked, you say, when the lights were lighted; was 
that the night time or the day time ? A. Day time. 

Bernice Gertrude Hagerty, called as a witness by the 
Commission, testified as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus : 

Q. How old are you ? A. Seven years old. 

Q. Did you ever work here before stringing beans? A. No, 
sir. 

Q. Did your mother tell you to say no? A. Yes. 



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^^^ Minutes of Public Heahings. 

LiLA Hagerty, a witness for the Commission, testified aa 
follows : 

Direct examination hy Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Did you work here last year ? A. No. 

Q. Did you work here before? A. Xo. 

Q. Did you ever work at all before? A. No. 

Q. Were you going to string beans to-day ? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you ever string beans ? A. No. 

Q. Is that what you came f or ^ A. Yes. 

Q. Is this other girl your sister ? A. Yes. 

Mrs. Rose IIagerty, called as a witness by the Commission^ 
refused to testify under oath, wna interrogated as follows -^ 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus : 

Q. How many children have you ? A. Three. 

Q. Why did they como here this morning ? A. Because they 

had nobody for me to leave them with. 

Q. Did they ever do any work? A. Yes; they did. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Did they work here ? A. Not this year they didn't. 
Q. Last year did they? A. Yes; for some little time. 
Q. Does your husband work here in the city? A. Yes; he 
works in the citv. 

t.' 

Q. How often do you work hero, regularly in the summer 
months ? A. No ; I have work to do at home. Three children, I 
think you have a good lot of work to do at home. 

Margaret LyNCir, called as a witness in behalf of the Com- 
mission, testified as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus : 
Q. How old are you ? A. Ten. 

Q. When were you ten ? When is your birthday ? A. Next 
Februai'y. 

Q. So you are nine, going on 10, are you ? A. Yes. 
Q. Did you work here last year ? A. Yes. 



Margaret Lynch. 



221 



Q. And the year before? A. No, I was not here the year 

before. 

Q. When you came here what time did you get here in the 
morning, when you worked here last year ? A. I don't know. 

Q, Did you come right after breakfast? A. Yes. 

Q. What time do you have your breakfast? A. Sometimes 
8 o'clock. 

Q. Did you work here after lunch, after dinner ? A. Yes ; I 
used to bring my dinner with me. 

Q. Did you work after supper, too ? A. No. 

Q. Did you work at night when the lights were lighted? A. 

No. 

Q. Did you go home for your supper? A. Yes. 

Q. Have you worked here this year at all ? A. Yes ; I worked 
the other dav. 

Q. What time did you start in the morning? A. Eight 
o'clock. 

Q. And what time did you stop ? What time was it when you 
went home? A. At noon time. 

Q. And you stayed home? A. Yes. 

Q. How much did you make that day? A. Twenty cents. 

Q. How much did you make last year, do you remember ? A. 
No, sir. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Does your mother bring 3'ou here? A. Yes. 
Q. Is your mother here too ? A. Yes ; no, not up to the bean 
factory she isn't. 

Q. -She is working here somewheres, isn't she? A. No. 

Q. Isn't she here at all to-day ? A. Yes ; she is here in Rome. 

Q. Well, she isn't working here ? A. No. 

Q. Are you here all alone ? A. My sister is with me. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How old is your sister? A. She is 12. 
Q. When does vour mother come for vou ? A. She is sick this 
summer. 



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^^^ MixuTEs OF Public Hearings. 

Helex Kapfer, called as a witness by the Commission, 
testified as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus : 

Q. How old are you? A. Ten. 

Q. And when is your birthday? A. First of June. 

Q. Well, you were 10 last June or will be 10 next June? A. 
I was 10 this June. 

Q. Where do you live? A. On Court street. 

Q. Is your father living ? A. Yes. 

Q. Well does he work ? A. Yes. 

Q. What is your father's name? A. Sam Ivapfer. 

Q. What does he work at ? A. Carpenter. 

Q. Did you work here last year ? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you work here before last year,— the year before ? A. 
I don^t know. 

Q. You don't remember ? A. ^N^o. 

Q. What did you do last year, snip beans ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What time did you begin in the morning? A. I don't 
know. 

Q. Right after breakfast ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What time do you have your breakfast home, 7 o'clock or 
half past 7 ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you come here right after breakfast ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What time did you leave here to go home, was it night time ? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Did you work here when the lights were lighted ? A. ^o. 
Q. You were home for supper, were you ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How often did you work last year ? How many days ? A. 
I don't know. 

Q. Was your mother here ? A. No ; she is coming up. 
Q. She is coming up later? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did she work here last year, too ? A. Yes. 
Q. Did you work here last w^eek ? A. Yes. 
Q. Did your mother work here last week ? A. Yes. 
Q. When did you start in ? What time in the morning ? A. 
Seven o'clock. 

Q. What time did you stop ? A. When it stops. 



Frances Casti. 



223 



Q. What time is that, 6 o'clock or 5 o'clock ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Tell me, did you ever work here w-hen it was night time? 
A. Yes; once. 

Q. Once? A. Yes. 

Q. How late was it that you stopped ? A. I don't know. 

Q. Nine o'clock or 10 o'clock ? A. I don't know. 

Q. Well, did somebody come for you that night? A. No; 
mv mamma has been here. 

Q. Your mother w^as here and you w^orked here ? A. Yes. 

Q. Where did you get your supper, here or go home ? A. Here. 

Q. Brought it along with you? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you get tired when you work here ? A. No. 

Q. Don't mind it? A. No. 

By Mr. Olney: 

Q. The work was very irregular, wasn't it ? A. Yes. 

Q. Sometimes it would start in the morning, sometimes in the 
afternoon, w^ouldn't it? A. Yes, 

Q. And sometimes last half a day? A. Sometimes. 

Q. And sometimes a quarter of a day? A. Yes. 

Q. What is the inference you draw as to the length of time the 
little girl works? 

Mr. Elkus : Nothing. We just want to get at the facts. 

Q. You don't work long enough to get tired, do you ? A. No, 
sir. 

Q. Well, are all the children coming and going during the day, 
working? A. Yes. 

Q. And you would come and go during the day ? A. Yes. 

Frances Casti, called as a witness by the Commission, 
testified as follow^s: 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus : 

Q. How old are you? A. Ten. 

Q. When were you 10 ? A. I don't know. 

Q. When is your birthday ? A. I don't know. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Who told you your w^ere 10, your mother ? A. Yes. 






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Minutes of Public Hearings. 



By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Where do you live? A. 314 South George street. 
Q. Are you over 10 or under 10 ? A. Over 10. 
Q. Did you work here last year? A. Yes. 
Q. Did you work here the year botore last ? A. IN'o. 
Q. Did you ever work at night ? A. No. 
Q. Worked in the day time? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you work here last week? A. Yes, just once; Friday. 
Q. What time did you stop working ? A. Just as soon as tliey 
stopped ; just as soon as the beans ran out 

Q. Is that the way you worked last year ? A. Yes. 
Q. Did you ever work here at night ? A. ;N"o. 

Marion Butts, called as a witness by the Commission, tes- 
tified as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How old are you? A. Ten. 

Q. When is your birthday ? A. September 14th. 

Q. Will you be ten or were you 10 last September ? A. I was 
10. 

Q. Did you work here last year stringing beans? A. Yes. 
Q. Did you go to school ? A. Yes. 
Q. What class are you in ? A. 4-B. 
Q. Did you work the year before last ? A. Yes. 
Q. And the year before that? A. Yes; I worked every year. 
Q. How old were you when you began to work here? A. I 
don't know. 

Q. Six years old or 7 years old, or what? A. I don't know 
how old. 

Q. Did you go to school before you worked, or did you go to 
school after you worked ? A. I come here in vacation. 

Q. Were you going to school at that time ? A. ]S"o. 

Q. I mean had you gone to school before you came here the 
iirst time? A. Yes. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Did you work here before you started to go to school ? A. 



No. 



Q. Have you ever worked at night ? A. Not here. 



James Cleller. 



225 



By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Where did you work at night? A. I did not work here 

nights. 

Q. Anywhere ? A. I did not work any place. 

Willis Honert, called as a witness, testified as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How old are you? A. Ten. 

Q. When were you 10 ? A. February 14th. 

Q. Last February ? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you work here last year? A. Yes. 

Q. And the year before? A. Yes. 

Q. And the year before that ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And what did you do, snip beans ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you work at night? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Often? A. Not very often. 

Q. How late at night, 10 o'clock or 9 o'clock ? A. Ten o'clock 
sometimes. 

Q. Did you start early in the morning? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What time, 7 o'clock? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Who brings you here? A. My mother. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Does your mother work here, too? A. Not now she don't 
work here. 

Q. Did she bring you here this morning? A. No, sir. 

Q. You came alone, did you? A. Yes. 

Q. And you are here all alone, are you ? A. Yes. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. AVhere do vou live? A. 411 West Park street. 
Q. Does your father work ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What does he do? A. He is a molder. 

James Cleller, called as a witness, testified as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How old are you ? A. Eight. 

Q. What is your father's name? A. Denny Cleller. 

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MiNUTKs OF Public Heartnos. 



Q. What does he work at ? A. I don't know. 

Q. Does he w^ork ? A. Yes. 

Q. Where do you live? A. 313 Henry street. 

Q. Did you work here last year? A. Yes. 

Q. The year before that? A. Yes. 

Q. Ever before that? Two years ago did you work here? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. What do you do, snip beans ? A. Yes. 

Q. What time did you come here in the morning last year and 
year before last ? A. About 7 o'clock. 

Q. What time did you stop at night ? A. About 8 or 9 o'clock. 

Q. Did you ever work later than 8 or 9 ? A. No. 

Q. Do you ever get tired ? A. Yes. 

Q. Is your mother here ? A. No. 

Q. Who brings you here, any body ? A. My brother and sister 
brings me. 

Q. How old are they? How old is your brother? A. My 
brother is 11 years old. 

Q. How old is your sister? A. Ten going on 11. 
Q. Do they work here too? A. Yes. 

Q. Would you rather stay home and play or work here? A. 
Work here. 

Q. How much do you make? How much did you make last 
year, do you know? A. Us three? 

Q. No; you alone. A. I guess about $0. 

Q. How many days did you work for that ? A. I don't know. 

Q. How much did you three make together? A. $26.28. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Why don't you stop working when you get tired? A. (No 
answer.) 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. What would happen to you if you stopped working, would 
you get a licking? A. No. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Your mamma would not like it, you think, if you stopped 
working? A. Yes, sir. 



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Elias Van Slick. 



227 



Bv Mr. Elkus : 

Q. What would they do, anything? A. Who? 
Q. Anybody? A. No. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. What would the foreman do if you stopped work ? Would 
he make you go on and work ? A. I don't know. 

Q. But you never stop ? A. No. 

Q. Did you work last week? A. No. 

By Mr. Olney : 

Q. You don't work all day, do you, from the time you come in, 
until 8 or 9 o'clock ? A. No. 

Q. Weren't the beans coming irregularly more or less of the 
time? The beans came in different parts of the day, don't they, 
here, from the farms? A. Yes. 

Q. And there are times when thev don't work until — they don't 
work at all during the day, isn't there? There are no beans here 
and they have to wait for the beans ? A. Yes. 

Q. And sometimes they are here in the forenoon and sometimes 
in the afternoon and not the other part of the time ; is that right ? 
A. Yes. 

Q. And has there ever a foreman asked you to stay and w'ork, 
or anybody connected with the business? A. No. 

Elias Van Slick, called as a witness by the Commission, 
testified as follows : 

Direct examination bv Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How old are you? A. Ten. 

Q. When were you 10 ? A. 14tli of July. 

Q. Did vou work here last vear ? A. Yes. 

Q. Year before last? A. Yes. 

Q. The year before that, too ? A. I don't know. 

Q. Don't remember? A. No. 

Q. Do you string beans ? A. Yes. 

Q. What time do you start w^orking in the morning? A. I 
don't know the time it was in the morning. 

Q. Eight after breakfast? A. Yes, sir. 



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Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. What time did you have breakfast, 7 o'clock? A. Eight, 
sometimes half past seven. 

Q. Does your father work ? A. Yes. 
Q. What does he do ? A. Painter and paper hanger. 
Q. Where do you live? A. 314 North Madison street. 
Q. Ever get tired working here ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Do you work at night ? A. Once in a while I do. 
Q. How late? A. Nine or ten o'clock. 
Q. Are you tired when you work at night ? A. No. 
Q. Don't get sleepy ? A. No, sir. 
Q. Stay wide awake ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. You snip beans ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Out in the shed ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Did you ever do anything else ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What else ? A. I worked in a millinery store. 
Q. What did you do there ? A. Delivered hats. 
Q. Last year or this year ? A. Last year. 
Q. Did you work here last week ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. When did you start, in the morning ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you stopped when ? A. When the beans ran out. 
Q. How much did you make that time ? A. Twenty-three cents 
Q. When did you start, 7 o'clock in the morning ? A. No, sir. 
Q. What time was it ? A. I guess it was 8 o'clock. 
Q. And worked until 12 ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And you got twenty-three cents ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How much did you make last year ? A. I don't know how 
much I did make. 

Q. Does your mother come here with you ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did anybody come here with you ? A. My father sometimes 
comes with me. 

Q. Is he here to-day ? A. No, he isn't. 

Q. Whom did you come here with to-day, come alone ? A. No, 
sir. 

Q. Who brought you ? A. Eaymond Diller. 
Q. Who is he? A. This boy here. 

Q. The beans don't come all at once, they come at different 
times during the day, do they ? A. Yes, sir. 



John Huchko. 



229 



By Mr. Olney : 

Q. And sometimes they are working only half a day and some- 
times a quarter of a day, aren't they ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How many days have you been working at bean snipping 
this season so far? A. Two days, I think. 

Q. When was the first day, about ten days ago ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Two weeks ago? A. No, sir. 

Q. When was the first day ? A. About a week ago. 

John Huchko, called as a witness by the Commission, testi- 
fied as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus : 

Q. What is your age ? A. Ten. 
Q. What are you, Polish ? A. Yes. 
Q. Have you worked here ? A. Yes. 
Q. Did you work here last year? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Year before that ? A. Three years I have worked. 
Q. Since you were seven ? A. Yes. 
Q. What do you do, snip beans ? A. Yes. 
Q. Anything else? A. I only snip beans and pick peas. 
Q. What time do you start to work ? A. At seven. 
Q. What time do you stop ? A. Ten o'clock. 
Q. At night ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How much do you make a day ? A. About twenty-five or 
thirty cents. 

By Mr. Olney : 

Q. Where did you pick peas ? A. On the farm over there. 

Q. Picked peas ? A. Picked peas. 

Q. For the Fort Stanwix Canning Company? A. No; for 
ourselves. 

Q. For yourselves ? A. Yes. 

Q. You picked peas for your home, didn't you, after the peas 
had been cut off the field by the company ? A. Yes. 

Q. You never have picked peas or done any other work for the 
Fort Stanwix Canning Company except string beans ? A. No. 



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Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Henry Harrison Cummings. 



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By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Whom did you pick the beans for ? A. For ourselves. 
Q. For your own mother ? A. Yes. 

By Mr. Olney : 

Q. Has anybody connected with this company ever asked you 
to work here, or objected to you going home any time? A. ^o. 

Q. And they come and go here during the day, don't they, chil- 
dren and women and everybody, when they please ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And there is no restraint over them in any way, is there? 
A. JSTo. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Does your work hurt your fingers ? A. Yes ; sometimes it 
does. 

Q. Does the hurt cut through ? A. No ; the fingers get tired. 

Henry Harrison Cummings, called as a witness, and being 
duly sworn, testified as follows : 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Mr. Cummings, Avhere do you live? A. 307 West Thomas 
street. 

Q. What is your busiiuess? A. I have no business. My prin- 
cipal business is going to school. 

Q. You are a student ? A. I am a student in the R. F. A. 

Q. How old are you ? A. Fifteen, fifteen the 20th of June. 

Q. Are you connected with the Fort Stanwix Canning Com- 
pany ? A. They are kind enough to employ me as inspector. 

Q. How long have you been with them ? A. This is my first 
year. 

Q. What are your duties as inspector? A. My duties as in- 
spector are to go along the lines of children and women and find 
out that they do their work properly; find out that none under 
the required age are working, and otherwise see that the work is 
done properly and see that there is no more waste than is neces- 
sary. 

Q. How many seasons have you been working as inspector? 
A. This is my first season. 



Q. When did you begin work? A. The first time about a 
week ago. I can't remember the exact date. 

Q. How many days did you work? A. Well, I worked one 
day, what they call one day here; part of one da}'. 

Q. Is this the next day you worked ? A. l^o, I think I worked 
one day after that, but I won't say for sure, on this job. 

Q. You are new* in the business, then ? A. I am new to that 
business, yes, sir. 

Q. Did you get any instructions to-day about children working, 
what they should do and what wages they should get ? A. Yes, I 
have had instructions that no one under ten years of age is to 
work in this — in my section, at any time or anyway at all ; and 
also had instructions that the smaller girls were not to be allowed 
to carry full boxes of their beans after they have done them up. 

Q. When did you get these instructions ? A. What ? 

Q. When did you get these instructions ? A. They have been 
given to me by my boss on the section — I don't know him by any 
other name than Jack, and by Mr. Hall. 

Q. When did you get them ? A. The first day I went to work. 

Q. Last week, or ten days ago '( A. Yes ; about that. 

Q. Did you get any instructions this morning ? A. I did ; the 
same instructions over again. 

Q. They were repeated this morning? A. Yes. 

Q. Are they repeated to you every day you work? A. Why, 
the first three days. I don't know as they were repeated to me 
especially ; they gave all the inspectors there the same instructions 
and then repeated them because they were all new men in the 
business, and it was as much for their benefit as mine. 

Q. Did you send home any children this morning? A. Less 
than ten years of age I have had no occasion to send home anyone. 

Q. How do you find out if they are less than ten years of age ? 
A. Ask their age. 

Q. Ask each child as he or she comes in? A. No. I can tell 
reasonably whether they are over ten or not by their size. If I 
see anyone small I ask the age. 

Q. . Did you ask any child its age ? A. Yes ; I have asked every 
small child on my line. 




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Q. All were over ten? A. No; some of them said thej were 
under ten ; some of them tried to fake me. 

Q. Did you send them home ? A. :N'o, I did not. I told them 
if they picked I would be forced to send them home. 

Q. There has not been any picking yet ? A. No ; not up to the 
time I left. 

By Mr. Olney: 

Q. What do you mean by picking? A. Pardon me; by pick- 
ing I made a mistake in the technical term. By picking I meant 
snipping off the end of the beans that way (indicating). 

Q. And do any of them that have represented to you that they 
were under ten years of age work, that you know of, this morn- 
ing? A. No. 

Q. Or this season ? A. No, none that I know have worked at 
all. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Well, ten days ago did you ask the children if they were 
over ten or under ten ? A. Yes ; I asked. 

Q. Did you find any child that was under ten years of age? 
A. Why, I think I did. 

Q. Ten days ago ? A. Yes ; I think I did ; and told them they 
had to quit. 

Q. Did they quit ? A. Yes, they did. It is very easy to scare 
a child of that age. 

Q. They all know that they must say, even if they are not, that 
they are ten years of age? A. Yes. 

Q. You say several of them tried to fake you ? A. Yes ; one 
or two tried. 

Q. That is, they faked you by saying they were more than ten ? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Did these children you told to quit, did they leave the shed 
or move around somewhere else? A. They were mostly with 
their mothers. 

Q. They stayed right there ? A. Yes ; they stayed right there. 
By Mr. Olney: 

Q. What time did they commence stringing this morning ? A. 



Henry Harrison Cummings. 



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Just now. Well, they didn't commence stringing up to the time 

I left. 

Q. That is, it is about 12 o'clock now, isn't it? A. Yes; by 

my watch. 

Q. How, many days have they strung before this season? A. 

Two, I think. 

Q. About how many hours each day? A. Oh, they haven't 
had any more than six; I don't think they have put in a bit more 
than six. 

By ^Ir. Elkus : 

Q. There have been no beans until now ? A. There have been 
two days stringing. 

By Mr. Olney: 

Q. When was the first stringing ? A. A week or ten days ago, 
I think. 

Q. Do you recollect the date ? A. No. Wait a minute, I can 
too. I dated my checks 8/2, that means it was August 2nd. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. You gave a check for how much, for the quantity of work ? 
A. I did not have any quantity ; it is just box load or half box. 
I was not giving a check for that. 

Q. What does the check mean ? A. It means they have done — 
you have the wrong idea of the check. They do their work and 
sometimes a person will try to beat the company by doing poor 
work, that is putting unsnipped work in the back of the box or 
something of that kind, and my duty is to look over the box and 
see if they do their work and see that they are not wasting the 
beans, that is throwing small beans on the floor and such things. 
If they do their work correctly, I give the check and they take 
them up to be weighed. 

Q. That check shows the quality is correct ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And they get paid by the weight ? A. I think so. 

Q. Do you know how much they get paid ? A. No, I don't ; I 
have heard anywhere from a cent and a half to a cent. 



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Bj Mr. Olney: 

Q. About how many hours did they work on the first day, on 
August 2di A. I don't believe they worked over six hours. 

Q. Do you remember what day it was last week, the second 
day? A. I don't imagine they worked any more; possibly they 
worked over that ; I can't tell. My work extends into the cleaning 
up afterward, and there is no telling the time; they leave any 
time they want to. 

Q. So this is the third day the stringing of beans has been 
carried on, and August 2d was the first ? A. Yes. 

By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. You do not know how much work the children do, do you ? 
A. Why, I think I have heard a very fast boy make, he told me 
he had made fifty cents. 

Q. I mean in pounds as compared to what the women do? 
A. Of course a child can't work as fast as a woman can. I have 
not paid any attention ; I have not estimated the work at all. 

Q. Do they work as steady as the women ? A. I can't answer 
that ; what do you mean by child ? 

Q. Children ten to fifteen? A. Why, they can't do as much 
work as a woman can. It takes practice to do it. I have seen 
some that could not hardly get sl box of beans. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Are you the only inspector on the job ? A. 'No ; there are 
four others I know of, and Drobablv more. 

Q. Do you divide up the sections ? A. Yes. 

Q. Why I ask that, we have several children who testified 
to-day that they have worked before and they are imder the age 
of ten. I was wondering whether you had come across any of 
those? A. Not that I know of. They tell you one thing and 
tell me another. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. There is no way of finding out? A. No, there is no way 
of finding out, except their size and general appearance. 

Q. They all know you are not going to allow them to work 
unless they sajr they are ten years of age? A. Yes, 



Arthur S. Hall, called as a witness on behalf of the Com- 
mission, being duly sworn, testified as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus: 

Q. What is your address? A. 128 East Broomfield street. 

Q. What position do you hold ? A. Superintendent. 

Q. How long have you been superintendent ? A. I believe six 

years. 

Q. When does the factory begin work each season? A. You 

mean the canning season ? 

Q. Yes ? A. Usually about anywhere from the 5th of June to 
the 4th of July. 

Q. And until when does the canning season go on? A. It 
usually closes about October 1st, along the forepart of October. 
Depends on the way the season goes. 

Q. Is this the only plant that you are superintendent of? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What do you do during the rest of the year, from October 
to July? A. I remain here, taking general supervision until 
January 1st of this factory. 

Q. Yes? A. And any other of our factories, when here, that 
I may be able to do anything at. 

Q. What other factories do you go to? A. Whitesboro and 
Garland. 

Q. Are they canning factories too ? A. Yes. 

Q. What do you do after the first of January up to the first of 
October? A. I remain here, getting my general work of lining 
up for things here, machinery, fixtures, repairs and general work, 
and sometimes, like last year, I did company work here. 

Q. Besides the canning sheds how many sheds are there? 
A. Machinery and string sheds. 

Q. How many people can be accommodated in those stringing 
sheds? A. Now? 

Q. Yes? A. Well, there is upwards of about 1,200 people can 
be daily accommodated. 

Q. Do you have as many as that frequently ? A. Oh, often. 

Q. What is the highest number you have had, 1,200? A. I 
could not tell you. I think we have had in years gone by prob- 
ably as many as that 



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Q. Do you know how many are there to-day? A. I should 
judge about 500. 

Q. Men, women and children? A. Yes. 

Q. Besides the sheds you have a factory proper ? A. Yes. 

Q. What work do you do in the factory proper? A. Can the 
beans. 

Q. That is done by men or women ? A. The first is the grad- 
ing, done by machinery ; the next process is the sorting table, done 
by women; then they are blanched in tubs, mechanically; fill the 
cans mechanically, except tipping on the tops of them. Some 
of them may not be uniform in fill, and they are filled to uniform 
fullness, the cans, by women. 

Q. Do you employ children in your factory proper? A. No, 
sih 

Q. Do you over the age of 14 and under 16 ? A. No woman 
employed under the age of 21 and no men under 18. That has 
been our rule for years. 

Q. In these sheds, when do you begin work ? A. Any time that 
it happens, the crop happens to ripen, that we must take care of. 

Q. What crops do you handle in the sheds? A. Well, we 
handle, to start off, comes peas, but that has nothing only men 
working. 

Q. What do they do, shell the peas ? A. They cart it in there, 
unload it there, and it is drawn by conveyors into the factory. 

Q. When does that work begin? A. Along the 25th of June 
to the 1st of July. 

Q. It is done by men ? A. That is done by men. 

Q. After the peas, what is next? A. Beans. 

Q. You say there, the peas are piled up in the shed and con- 
veyors carry them into the factory? A. The farmers unload 
them from the wagons, and then put them on the conveyors, and 
they are carried to the pea sheller. 

Q. That conveyor is a machine? A. Only a wooden slate con- 
vevor, carried on a chain. 

Q. That is operated by steam power or what? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Has that been taken away? A. No, sir, it has been dis- 
connected. 

Q. It is still there but disconnected? A. Yes, sir. 



Q. Any other machinery there? A. No, sir. 

q! How are the peas shelled ? A. They are rolled by a thresher 
on the inside of the factory. The peas are carried inside. 

Q. In the sheds the men just shovel the peas on these convey- 
ors? A. The farmer draws them in on the vine and they are 
thrown on to the conveyor and carried to the thresher on the 

inside. 

Q. Is any work done on peas by women ? A. No work, except 
men pitching them on the conveyor. That is the unloading. 

Q. The next thing that is done in the sheds, what is that ? A. 
What we are working on now, bean stringing. 

Q. That is done by men, women and children, principally 
women and children ? A. Yes, men, women and children. 

Q. Where do you get these people from ? A. They come here 
voluntarily. We never have to advertise for them. They all 
come of their own free will to work at the commencement of the 

season. 

Q. Where do you get them ? A. We put an ad in the paper 

when we first start. 

Q. How are they paid ? A. Those people that snip beans ? 

Q. Yes ? A. They are paid by the pound. 

Q. W^hat do you call snipping beans ? Just describe it to us ? 
A. Take the end off, one end of the bean is the collar, the way 
it grows on to the vine, the other end comes out to a point. By 
taking off these two points it pulls off a little string on the point. 

Q. These women and children do that to the beans and put 
them in a box, do they? A. Yes. 

Q. And the boxes are weighed, first passed by the inspector as 
being properly done, then they are taken up to be weighed ? A. 

Yes, sir. 

Q. And the women and children carry the boxes up ? A. Yes, 

sir. 

Q. And how much do they get ? A. One cent a pound. 

Q. Now, have you got a copy of the ad you inserted this year? 

A. In the paper ? 

Q. Yes ? A. Well, no, I haven't a copy of it ; but I know what 

it is. 

Q. You do know what it is? A. Yes. ■ 



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Q. Tell us what it is (! A. You will find it started with a 
three-inch double space column, and on the top was '' ^Notice," and 
it said, '' Bean stringing tomorrow at 10 :30. Sorting tables, 
12:30. Fort Stanwix Canning Company.'^ 

Q. What do you mean by sorting tables? A. That is where 
people sort the beans after they pass through the grader. 

Q. Is that inside? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Who does that, women or men ? A. Women. 

Q. How are they paid? A. Paid by the hour. 

Q. How much do they get ? A. Ten cents. 

Q. How many hours a day do they work? A. Well, they run 
according to the crop. This year, the first day we ran, I think 
they worked four and one-half hours, and the next day I think 
about eight hours. 

Q. Just until the beans were exhausted? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Last year what were the hours of labor? A. I donH re- 
member last year, I am sure. 

Q. Can you give me any idea? A. I could not tell, but if 
our payroll was here I could, but I do not know in my mind now. 

Q. After the beans were through, what is next; after that 
comes the fruits? A. No, sir, we are through. 

Q. These people, women and children, are only employed in 
these sheds, as I understand it, for stringing beans ? A. That is 
all. 

Q. And all the work they do is stringing these beans ? A. Yes. 
Well, I don't know what other work they do. 

Q. Then they are through? A. Yes, unless some of these 
women may be inside, which I don't know. 

Q. How many days during the year does that work go on? 
A. That goes on for about a month, I should say. 

Q. Thirty days? A. About thirty days' work on beans. 

Q. When do they begin in the morning? A. About seven 
o'clock. 

Q. And when do they stop? They have to keep on picking 
beans? A. We usually get through stringing anywheres around 
six o'clock, five o'clock, or such time. 

Q. If the beans keep on coming, do you keep right on until 
ten or eleven o'clock ? A. We never have had that experience. 



Q. I mean to say they never have worked, since you have been 
here, until ten o'clock at night ? A. Not until ten. 

q! Didn't vou hear these children testify they worked until 
10 o'clock at night ? A. I don't think they worked here. 

Q. Do you mean to say you never worked until 9 o'clock 
stringing beans? A. We have been until 9, but I don't think 
they worked later than that. 

Q. How many days last year did you work until 9 o'clock? 
A. I don't think more than a couple of days, two or three occa- 
sions. ^,11 x-l Q 

Q. How many davs did you work from 7 o clock until 8 
o'clock at night ? A. I could not tell you ; I don't think last 
year we worked over three or four nights more than until after 
6 o'clock. Our payroll will show that. 

Q. Well, now, the people work by the piece, don't they ? A. 

Yes, sir. 

Q. They can go when they please? A. Yes, sir. 

Q*. But^do you keep any list of people who work for you? A. 
Not the piece work, no, sir. 

Q. How do you pay them, at the end of the day ? Do they pass 
in their checks ? A. Last year we commenced paying, I think, 
ten davs after the bean stringing began. The cashier is at the 
office and pays whether it is one cent or $50. We will pay each 
day, a little later, but at the first start we don't commence pay- 
ing until there is enough. 

Q How many of these children are working over there from 
7 in the morning until 9 at night? A. I don't think there is 

any child works that late. 

Q. These children, then, have not told us the facts? A. Well, 

mavbe not ; I don't know. 

Q How much does a child make that works from 7 until 6 i 
A. Well, it depends upon the child's adaptability to manipulate 

the fingers. 

Q How much do the women make ? A. They make, I sup- 
pose, from 7 o'clock — I don't know how much — for 9 hours' 
vrork, stringing beans, about $1.50 to $2. 

Q. How many pounds is that? A. Two doUai^s would be 200 

pounds. 



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Q. Is there any limit to the youth of the children,, any age 
they are not permitted to work, or under any age they are not per- 
mitted to work? A. Not allowed to work under 10 years of 
age. 

Q. iSince when is that? A. Since this vear. 

Q. Up to this week they were allowed to go at any age? A. 
'No, not this year. 

Q. Up to last week ? A. We started on August 2nd. 

Q. Last year they could come in at any age? A. I believe 
they strung last year at any age. 

Q. What was the cause of their going, of your change of rules ? 
Did you change them, or were you instructed to change them? 
A. We were instructed to change them. 

Q. By whom? A, I forget, either Mr. Olney or i\Ir. Bailey. 

Q. Who is Mr. Bailey? A. Manager and Vice-President. 

Q. And last year and the year before, what ages were the chil- 
dren that worked here? A. We tried to keep them out as much 
as possible, the younger children. 

Q. I am not asking you that; how young were they? A. I 
could not tell you. 

Q. Were they children as young as 4 years of age? A. No, 
not as young as that, to my knowledge. 

Q. Did you ask any child its age last year? A. Yes; I asked 
ages last year. 

Q. Whom did you ask? A. I asked the children; several of 
these smaller children. 

Q. Why did you ask? A. To keep them away as much as I 
could. 

Q. What age limit did you have last year? A. I tried to 
keep them out as much as possible when we started. 

Q. What did you do ? A. We could not keep them away ; they 
came here with people, and we had to use them. 

Q. In the middle of the season last year did you do anything 
to keep them away ? When you had no instruction ? A. I had 
the same instructions that I have now. 

Q. Did you personally ask any child how old it was ? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you ever have any child tell you it was not ten years 
of age? A. No. 



Arthur S. Hall. 



241 



Q. Did you send them home? A. No; they were with other 
people and not working. 

Q. You would be surprised to find children working who were 
there without other people who were under the age of 10 years? 
A. Yes, sir, I would. 

Q. You knew the Commission was coming up here to-day, of 
course? A. No, sir. 

Q. When did you find it out? A. Last night's paper had the 
first I knew about the Commission being out. 

Q. Well, then, you knew it before to-day? A. I saw it in 
the paper last night that they were going to Geneva to-day and 
I did not expect the Commission to be here. 

Q. You knew the Commission was in the vicinity ? A. I knew 
it was in Utica, and thought they were going to Geneva and 
Mount Morris to-day. 

Q. Do you ever see any of these children go to sleep here ? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. I mean children who were not working, and with their 
parents ? A. No, I don't think I have. 

Q. Do you keep a time book ? A. For what ? 

Q. In the factory ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You haven't any definite hours of labor when you begin 
and stop work in the sheds at all, have you ? A. No, sir. 

Q. They begin when the beans get there and stop when they 
get through, is that right? A. Well, no; we shut them off at 
stringing beans when we will have an amount to satisfy our 
capacity inside; then we shut them off. 

Q. Do you ever shut them off when there are beans to string ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When? A. Many times. 

Q. What time of the night was that ? A. We have shut them 
off when there was beans to string as early as 5 o'clock. 

Q. Then you had a supply of beans on hand ready to be strung ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you still shut them off ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you did that because there was plenty of beans in the 
factory to be canned? A. Yes, sir. 



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Q. And you were not up to the supply that was coming in ? 

A. :n^o. 

Q. When do you start' in again, as soon as you get caught up 
to it ? A. We probably commence, if we have beans carried over, 
about seven o'clock in the morning. 

Q. Did you ever start at seven o'clock in the morning ? A. No. 

Q. Haven't they begun here as early as four o'clock? A. We 
don't start ; there may have been some one come and pick beans. 

Q. You don't stop them from working ? A. No. 

Q. And you have inspectors, and have them on beans to inspect 
the quality, do you not, at all times ? A. There has been times 
when they have strung until seven, and there are other times 
when they have come earlier than seven and started. 

Q. When you stop that way because your factory was ahead 
of the stringers, where did you keep the surplus beans that were 
not strung? A. Keep them in these boxes in the sheds, as you 
see them. 

Q. They were kept there until the next day ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Until your factory caught up ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Weren't they ruined ? A. No, sir ; not on a cool night ; on 
a warm night, we could not leave them there. 

Q. What did you do then ? A. Last year we took and put them 
on the dump. When it is cool they will stay ; when warm, they 
won't. 

Q. Did you take them to the shop and throw them away ? A. 

Yes. 

Q. W^hen it is a cool night, for instance, to-day, you can keep 
them for several days? A. No, sir. 

Q. How long can you keep them ? A. If it is a cool night, and 
we have something wrong, we can hold them until the next noon, 
but the longer they stay, the poorer quality they get. 

Q. The whole thing then, to keep them going, is to keep the 
factory up to your stringers ? A. W^e have got to keep going that 

way. 

Q. How many people do you employ in the factory itself ? A. 



Arthur S. Hall. 



243 



I should say — I don't know, but I should judge about 100 people 

altogether. 

Q. What are your hours of labor there ? A. The hours them- 
selves here have been — they vary considerably from three 
hours a day until — I don't think we have worked over twelve at 
any time except in one instance we may have, once ; that was dur- 
ing the picking season. 

Q. What were the hours then ? A. The hours at that time, I 
think, were about from 11 o'clock in the morning, or 12, started in, 
and we worked until we had to remain longer on account of the 
electric lights going out, as late as two or three hours, and we 
worked until along about 3 o'clock in the morning; that is the 

onlv time. 

Q. Last year what were your hours in your factory itself ? A. I 

could not tell you. 

Q. Can you give me any idea ? A. I could give you an idea, 
but I could not tell a year ago. 

Q. You were working here on the 6th of July, weren't you ? A. 
This year? 

Q. Yes ? A. I believe so. 

Q. Is that the day you told me about you started from 11 o'clock 
in the morning and worked until about 3 in the morning? A. 

The 6th of July ? 

Q. Yes ? A. I believe it was ; it was on Saturday. 

Q. Well, you said you started at 11 o'clock and worked until 3 ? 
A. I think it was ; I don't have the dates ; if I had a memorandum 

I could tell you. 

Q. Where is your book? A. I believe in the office. 

Q. That is last year's book, is it ? A. No, this year's here. It 
is hard for me to keep track of it. 

Q. You said you never worked more than twelve hours except 
that one day ? A. I don't think we did. I won't say that we did 

not. 

Q. You may be mistaken ? A. Yes, sir. These hours I could 
not tell you about these hours ; I don't know, because our payroll 
will show it. 



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Q. Well, these people who work in the factory, are they paid 
by piecework or the day? A. By the hour. 

Q. How much do they get an hour ? A. The women are paid 
ten cents, and the men are paid from fifteen cents to twenty-five 
cents. 

Q. And the women are required to be here at what time? A. 
Never before seven in the morning. 

Q. And to stay until when? A. Whenever we may have the 
work for them. Depends on the stuff coming in. 

Q. And the men the same? A. The majority of the men the 
same way ; we have some steady men. 

Q. How long are they required to stay ? A. The regular men, 
we have to operate our machines. 

Q. When do they come ? A. At seven o'clock each day all the 
day, they are getting full time. 

By Senator Wagner : 

Q. You did not answer the question why the rule was made 
that only children over ten years of age should be employed? 
A. Why it was made I don't know. 

Q. You simply know it was made? A. I don't know that it 
was; I was instructed to observe it. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. When were these placards posted up ? A. They were posted 
up the first day we started this year. 

Q. And previous years ? A. Under those there were other signs 
that you will see in the shop ; they remain there now. 

Q. What are those ? A. There is one, you will notice, put up 
last year, September 11th, that no children under 16 years of age 
would be allowed to work. 

Q. After September 11th? A. Yes. 

Q. Wnbat did you do after September 11th? A. We continued 
stringing beans last year until the 2d day of September. 

Q. That is because the schools began? A. Yes; our school 
begins here a week later on account of the carnival in the city, 
and it begins on, I think, September 11th, whatever date that 
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Arthur S. Hall. 



246 



during the school hours, and there is our signs up there over the 
door, put up last year. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. Does the canning of beans last longer than four weeks ? A. 
It lasted last year. 

Q. Yes ? A. I can't tell you. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Suppose you get a truck delivering the beans on a hot night 
about five o'clock in the afternoon, you keep the people there 
in the sheds, don't you, until they are strung? A. We seldom 
ever get it — I don't think we ever had to do that. Whenever we 
have beans we do it in the morning. 

Q. You don't do the picking, do you ? A. Our farm does that. 

Q. Do you get your beans from your own farm only, or from 
other people? A. Yes. 

Q. Don't you contract with others ? A. No. 

Q. Where is your farm located ? A. All around here. 

Q. Can you tell me what was the last hour in the day that you 
ever received deliveries of beans in the last two years? A. No, 
sir, I can't. 

Q. Is there any reason whatever why you should keep people 
working here at any time whatever until 9 or 10 o'clock at night ? 
A. Well, if you will remember the condition of the crops change 
from year to year and from day to day, and they are ripening all 

the time. 

Q. You have your own farm and can regulate the picking ? A. 
Yes, but God Almighty regulates the crops. 

Q. But you regulate the picking ? A. Yes, we pick them when- 
ever they are ready to pick. 

Q. Now, they are not all ripe to pick at the same time, are they ? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. Do you regulate the delivery to your factory? A. After 
they are picked, brought right in as soon as they are picked. 

Q. But you told me you seldom had deliveries of a late after- 
noon ? A. No, we don't. 

Q. Deliveries are usually made in the morning? A. In the 



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forenoon. About noon, or along noon time, just as they como 
to-day. 

Q. So, then, there is no contract with anybody that requires 
you to take the beans wJien they deliver them ? A. No, sir. 

Q. They are your own beans, and you have absolute control 
over them? A. So far as the picking. 

Q. And you hold the picking back a couple of hours, as you see 
fit? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you say you regulate it so that beans are seldom de- 
livered after the forenoon ? A. Well, afternoon, but not at night. 

Q. You say they are seldom delivered after 12 o'clock? A. 
Yes, sir, they are often delivered after noon. 

Q. You said they were not ? A. I meant at night. 

Q. You said they are usually delivered about this time? A. 
We are only starting to-day, and they will be delivered up until 3 
or 4 o'clock. 

Q. If you began the deliveries early in the morning you could 
get the stringers working earlier ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Why don't you ? A. Because we can't pick beans when the 
dew is on them, because they are rusted. 

Q. When do they begin picking ? A. About 9 o'clock. 

Q. And you mean there is dew until 9 o'clock ? A. Yes, sir ; 
very heavy dew last night. 

Q. As soon as the dew is off, if you have more people picking 
the beans, you could get them earlier, could you not ? A. No. 

Q. How many people are picking those beans? A. I don't 
know, I am not sure. 

Q. If you have enough people picking you could get them in 
sooner, couldn't you? A. Not much; a little bit, because they 
go on a row and pick a row so as not to tramp on the beans, and 
when they get through they wait around. 

Q. Who picks the beans, men or women ? A. Both. 

Q. Children? A. Some. 

Q. Any young children ? A. No young people. 

Q. How much are they paid, by the piece? A. By the pound. 

Q. How much do they get a pound ? A. One cent a pound, the 
same as here. 

Q. They pick the beans ? A. Yes, sir. 



Arthur S. Hall. 



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By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Whenever you start at 7 o'clock in the morning it is really 
on crop delivered the night before ? A. Hold-overs, yes, sir. 

By Mr. Elkus : 
. Q. How young are these children who pick beans ? A. I don't 

know. 

Q. You don't employ them? A. No, sir. 

Q. Are they four, five and six years old ? A. I don't believe 
there is any as young as that. 

Q. How much ? A. I don't know. 

Q. You think they are as young as they are here in the factory ? 
A. Yes, they may be ; I don't know about that. 

Q. Now, what is the necessity for working in your factory 
sixteen hours a day ? A. Do you mean on any particular product, 

peas, for instance? 

Q. Yes ? A. Because those are grown by farmers, and there 
is only one day they are in right condition to pack ; we have to 
pack them that day ; if we don't do that they will spoil. 

Q. How long does the pea season last ? A. This year ? 

Q. Last year, we will say ? This year, either ; I don't care ; 
that doesn't make any difference ? A. We commence canning on 

July 5 th. 

Q. Yes; and how long did it last? A. We finished packing 

peas Saturday, August 3d, not quite a month. 

Q. About a month. Every day during that time were peas 

delivered? A. No. 

Q. How long were peas delivered ? A. The first day they were 
delivered we worked a couple of hours, and the next day, no 

delivery. 

Q. The first process in the canning of peas is what? A. The 

shelling. 

Q. Does that have to be done as soon as they are delivered ? A. 

It should be as soon as possible after delivery. 

Q. That is done by women, I suppose? A. That is done by 
machinery, mechanically. 

Q. Do you require anybody, except someone to oversea the 
machines? A. That is all. 



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Q. And jou could work all night and all day on them, couldn't 
you? A. Yes. 

Q. Work twenty-four hours ? A. Yes. 

Q. And have two or three shifts of men? A. Yes. 

Q. So that that does not require any overtime of women at all ? 
A. 1^0. 

Q. And after the peas are shelled what becomes of thehi? 
A. They are then taken and graded. 

Q. What do you mean, sorted out ? A. Yes, to get the differ- 
ent sizes. 

Q. That is done mechanically? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That you can do twenty-four hours a day? A. Yes, you 
could. 

Q. And you could have different shifts of men? A. Yes. 

Q. What is done with them after that? A. They are 
blanched. 

Q. That is a mechanical process? A. Yes. 

Q. What do you mean by that ? A. We have a covered boiler, 
a blancher, they put the peas in and parboil them. 

Q. That is done by machinery? A. Yes. 

Q. That could be done twenty-four hours in the day by hav- 
ing different shifts of men ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What is the next process? A. The sorting table. 

Q. Is that done mechanically? A. No, that is done with 
women sorting by hand. 

Q. They pick out each particular pea ? A. They pick out any 
foreign matter that may be in, white peas, gravel stones, and 
put them ready for the table. 

Q. And for all of this time the men are paid by the day or by 
the hour? A. By the hour. 

Q. They are skilled mechanics? A. No, they are anybody, 
just common laborers, and girls, except just a very few of them. 

Q. And these women who take out the improper matter or the 
bad peas, pick them out with their fingers, do they ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And they, too, get paid by the hour? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What hours do they work? A. Well, the hours you have 
there in your slip. 

Q. According to conditions? A. Yes. 



Arthur S. Hall. 



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Q. Do they parboil them before they pick them out ? A. Yes. 

Q. So they won't spoil any more? A. They spoil quicker 
after parboiling. 

Q. There you can work 24 hours a day if you have the 
peas ? A. We could, if we could get the help, if the help would 
warrant it. 

Q. I mean, if you wanted to, you could have different shifts of 
people? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And keep them regular hours, if you have the work? 
A. Yes, sir, if we have the work. 

Q. If you could regulate the supply of peas ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, the peas come in as they are picked, do they ? A. As 
they are cut, yes, sir. 

Q. After they are parboiled and selected, or sorted, what be- 
comes of them ? A. They are put in the fillers, which fill the cans 
properly, and put the circular on them. 

Q. Who does that? A. Men. 

Q. Shovel them in? A. No, sir, automatically. 

Q. They just watch them ? A. Yes. 

Q. Done by machinery? A. Yes. 

Q. So that that could be done 24 hours in the day with dif- 
ferent shifts of men ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What is the next step after they are put in the filler? 
They are properly sealed. 

Q. They are put in the can in that process automatically? 
Yes, sir. 

Q. And sealed up? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Automatically? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What is the next process ? A. They are cooked in the can. 

Q. They are cooked automatically, I suppose? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And that is watched over by women ? A. Men. 

Q. And that can be done twenty-four hours in the day by dif- 
ferent shifts? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What is the next step after they are cooked ? A. They are 
brought to our store house and piled up in cases. 

Q. And labeled ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. There is nothing, really, is there in your whole business, 
that could not be worked twenty-four hours a day if you wanted 
to ? A. If we could regulate it so as to keep our help. 



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Q. You could work two or three shifts a day ? A. If we had 
the work. 

Q. Who are the people that have to work longer than ten or 
twelve hours ? A. The people in any of those departments that 
you mentioned that he had to — 

Q. That is, in the sorting they work longer hours? A. Yes 

sir. ' ' 

Q. Will you look at your book and tell me, since you started 
this month, the hours of labor you had in your factory proper? 
A. I don't believe I can tell you. 

Q. Don't you keep any record ? A. The record is on the pay- 
roll. 

Q. Well, I would like to know, did your peas come from your 
own farm, or did you contract for those ? A. We contract mostly; 
some from our own farm. 

Q. How do you buy them, as they are growing, or make the 
contract with the farmer before they are picked, or do you bu>' 
them as they are coming in picked ? A. We contract that through 
the farmer. 

Q. Before they are picked ? A. A^o ; in the early season ; before 
growing them; we furnish the seed and pay him at the rate 
of shelled peas. For instance, he may bring in one load of vine 
and no peas, and then again he may bring in a small load of 
vines and get a large quantity of peas from them. 

Q. Your contract is made in the beginning, when you furnish 
the seed ? A. Yes. 

Q. And he plants his field, and do you pay him in advance ? 
A. 'No, sir. 

Q. Pay him for the shelled peas ? A. Yes, sir. We have a 
day we pay him later in the season. 

Q. What is there about delivery, what regulations do you make 
in your contract ? A. We have — I don't know. We have a con- 
tract on file in the office here. 

Q. You have a written contract ? A. Yes. 

Q. Can he deliver them when he wants to, or when you want 
him to ? A. He delivers them according to the contract. 

Q. What does the contract provide ? A. I don't know. 

Q. Can you get a copy of the contract ? A. I think so. We 



pay not according to the vines, we pay according to the quality. 
If they are nice and palatable, such as you or I would put on 
the table, fancy peas, we pay him $2.75 or $3, just according 
to the quality, and if they are not good enough wt? grade them 
down. 

Q. And he waits until you send out word to pick them? A. 

Yes, sir. 

Q. What is that for? A. For the reason he might think his 
peas were overripe or not ripe enough, and we kind of help him. 

Q. Do you tell him when to pick them? A. We help him; we 
don't tell him. 

Q. You decide when to pick them ? A. Yes. 

Q. So that you control practically when the peas are coming 
to you ? A. We have an idea. 

Q. You can figure it out pretty well ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You can prepare for when the peas are coming in ? A. We 
are ready always, and know about when they are coming in. 

Q. You can determine, so far as labor is concerned? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you keep these people here regularly in your factory 
proper, or send for them when you need them? A. We know 
from day to day just when we will start. 

Q. You keep on continuously when you come to start packing ? 
A. Yes. Not this year, wo didn't so much on peas; the hours 
of labor varied considerably. 

Q. Just because the peas did not come in ? A. Yes. 

Q. If you could regulate when the peas came in, you could 
work right straight along, and work two or three shifts a day? 
A. If we could regulate the crops coming in, we never would 
break any labor laws or break any laws of ten hours a day, or 
anything else. 

Q. What other products do you can besides peas and beans? 
A. We can some corn here. 

Q. Do you go for the corn or is that delivered to you? A. 
That is delivered in husks, the ears broken and husks. 

Q. Do you contract with that the same as you do the peas? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And do you advise the people the season to plant that? 
A. No, sir, not so much on this, because the farmers have grown 
it. Tliat is not so fine a job. 



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Q. Do you pack that up as soon as it comes in ? A. It should 
be; all products should be. 

Q. When the corn comes in, what do you do ? A. Unload it in 
the shed on the other side of the road, and then it is husked. 

Q. Can the women do that ? A. Both. 

Q. By hand? A. Yes. 

Q. Are they paid by the day or hour? A. By the bushel. 

Q. How much do they receive ? A. Three cents per box. 

Q. How many hours do they work? A. They work here 

the corn business has never been very long, it has always been 
short hours. 

Q. What hours ? A. I believe they — I don't believe we get 
anything but seven hours on corn. 

Q. You don't need any long time on corn, do you ? A. We do 
at odd times ; but our last few years, our experience has been we 
haven't had a great amount of corn. 

Q. After it is husked, what is done with it ? A. It goes on a 
conveyor to a cutting machine. 

Q. What is done there ? A. Automatically cut it off from the 
cob. 

Q. By machinery? A. By machinery. And it goes down- 
stairs. 

Q. From your experience the last two or three years you don't 
need to work overtime on corn, and never had to the last two or 
three years ? A. I don't think we have ; I would not say we have 
not. 

Q. Your best recollection ? A. I don't think we have. 

Q. So far as you know ? A. 'No, I don't think so. 

Q. After the corn is cut off, is it boiled then ? A. It goes into 
the machine automatically. 

Q. It is all machinery after the husking? A. It is never 
seen, it goes into the filler, the can is pushed under the filler 
automatically, and filled and sealed. 

Q. So all you need is people to watch the machines ? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. You have produced a paper, which is a copy of a contract 
which you made for the purchase of peas, is it ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. This is a 1912 contract, and on the other side is one for 



Akthur S. Hall. 



253 



com also ? A. No, both on the same side, I believe. The condi- 
tions of both are on the back. 

Q. This is for everything, squash, corn and peas? A. That 
covers everything we contract out. There is no beans on it. 

Q. What do you do here about peas if they are all delivered 
on the same day ? I see you say here about peas, that they are 
all to be delivered on the same day as cut, unless otherwise agreed. 
You do sometimes agree to take them later? A. We do lots of 
times. On account of the rush we have to. 

Q. Do you take them a day or two later ? A. No, sir ; we don't 
take them after such a long time under the canning contract. 

Q. You don't throw them away then? A. Yes, generally that 
is a loss. We have thrown them away if there has been a de- 
livery and we cannot handle them, we have thrown them away to 
our fertilizer dump. 

Q. Does the farmer get paid just the same? A. We throw 
them away and pay for them. 

Q. If the supply comes and you don't use them? A. Yes; 
we pay the farmer. 

Q. How do you determine how to pay for them if they are not 
shelled? A. He draws in a load of vines, and his vines are 
weighed in first, we know how many vines he has, and he will 
always have one load, 27,000 pounds of vines produces a certain 
quantity of peas, 40,000 pounds of vines will produce a certain 
amount of peas, and we pay him so much. 

By Senator Wagnek: 

Q. You say you don't pay the farmer for thq peas until they 
are shelled? A. Yes, sir, until they are shelled. 

Q. Who determines after they are shelled, who determines how 
much he is to get? A. There is one man, practical man, under- 
stands the quality of vine crops, as to quality, he grades them, 
and gives his load slip, to see if they have been shelled soon after 
brought in, and he tests them, and determines whether to pay the 
long price or the short price. 

Q. After all, the farmer is at your mercy as to what he gets 
for his peas ? A. No. The farmers watch their peas a good deal, 




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and are being educated to get their crops in when they are at the 
right condition. 

Q. This is a sort of one-sided affair to determine the quality of 
peas, and determine how much the farmer shall get ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You say that '^ your peas are only worth so much,' and that 
settles it so far as the farmers are concerned, don't it, to take 
that money. A. Yes, sir. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. When does the corn season begin ? A. Out of all the loads 
of peas delivered here this year, there is not 2 per cent, of the 
peas delivered here this year but what got the long price for 
them. 

By Assemblyman Phillips : 

Q. You say the women get ten cents an hour? A. In the 
factory proper. 

Q. Yes? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That means, if they only work fifty-four hours a week, they 
only get ninety cents a day ? A. Five dollars and forty cents. 

Q. You could not get the women to come and work for less 
than nine hours ? A. We could. 

Q. That means a small wage. If you paid them more than 
ten cents an hour, wouldn't you be able to get more employees 
and be able to work them without working overtime? A. No 
because they would be dissatisfied. 

Q. Why ? A. Suppose we put on two shifts of women, these 
women working in the factory all work here every season, and 
should we put on somebody to take their places ? Sho need not 
do that. They know they can leave any time they wish, and we 
can get somebody to take their places, and they would make that 
up outside. 

Q. If they got as much money ? A. If we had the produce 
coming and needed them here all the time. 

Q. You pay such a low wage they have got to work about 
fifteen hoiu-s to make it wortli while? A. We can't control the 
hours of labor on account of crop conditions, and if we only 
work four hours — 



Arthur S. SalI. 



255 



Q. (Interrupting.) That does not control the rate? A. No, 



sir. 



Q. Instead of working fifty people fifteen hours you could work 
them ten hours and increase the number of people when you 
needed them, instead of increasing the hours, only increasing the 
number of people ? A. Yes, but to do that we would not be able 
to — we would have to build another factory to handle it, one as 
large as this, and we have a large capacity here. 

Q. You mean, you haven't room enough to accommodate a 
large number of people? A. Not if we double the capacity by 
putting on a double number of employees, as w^e would have to. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. You could work them nights, one shift at night and one 
in the day time ? 

By Assemblyman Phillips : 

Q. I don't care how you do it, if you reduce the hours? A. 
Well, we could do that. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. I understand one of your complaints was, you could not 
get enough labor during the busy season? A. I don't know 
whether we have trouble to my observation, only with men labor. 

Q. You have plenty of women and children? A. Yes. 

By Assemblyman Phillips : 

Q. I don't know any other industry where you can get women 
at ten cents an hour? A. I don't know anything about that. 
Our work is easy. They sit down for an hour and don't work. 
When a woman works ten hours a day here she is not usually 
working over seven. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. But she has to stay here. A. Yes, but she don't have to 
work. 

By Assemblyman Phillips : 

Q. She is paid for the full ten hours she is here ? A. Yes, sir, 
we pay them always. 




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By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Suppose you increase the wages just a little bit and work 
them no longer, or even less than you do, don't you think you 
could get as much work out of it ? A. No, sir, I don't think so. 
I have tried that in the department, taking more men. I tried 
to do that. That has been done here. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How many people do you employ? A. I don't know, I 
judge about 100 or 150. 

Q. How many of those are women and how many men? A. 
There are probably sixty or seventy-five women. 

Q. This corn season begins when? When did it begin last 
year? A. We started canning com August 22d last year. 

Q. And finished when ? A. September 23d. 

Q. During that time how many days did you work more than' 
ten hours a day? A. I don't think we worked — I don't re- 
member — but I don't think we worked much over ten, if at any 
time during the corn season. 

Q. Well, you have a record ? A. I don't remember. 

Q. On August 25th there were fourteen people working twelve 
hours a day; there were three people working thirteen hours a 
day. That was not necessary, was it ? A. They may have been 
mechanics getting a new line of machinery, or something. 

Q. Fourteen people? A. We have twenty-two people steady. 

Q. These are only women? A. I don't recollect of running 
that late. 

Q. There was not any necessity for it, was there? A. There 

may have been. 

Q. What was 'the reason? A. We had a crop of Crosby corn, 
a different variety than our corn in this State, and that is a 
variety that ripens very quickly. 

Q. Isn't it a fact that it all depends on the amount of com you 
contract for? You contract for a certain amount of com? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. And you know when you make the contracts how much 
corn you will get ? A. Pretty near. 

Q. And you know just about how many people it takes to husk 



Arthur S. Hall. 



257 



a certain amount of corn, that is right, isn't it? A. Well, there 
is no required amount. 

Q. You know about how many hours the women — you know 
how many ears of corn the women can husk? A. Yes. 

Q. And therefore when it comes time and you expect the crop 
for which you contracted, you know how many people are re- 
quired to do it in a certain number of hours ? A. Yes, but we — 

Q. ( Interrupting. ) That is so ? A. I never paid any attention 
to it. 

Q. You never paid any attention to the number of people who 
husked the com ? A. ^NTo. 

Q. The point is, you have never made any study of the supply 
of corn as related to the number of people who are going to do 
the work ? A. The husking ? 

Q. Yes ? A. Xo. 

Q. And if you did, would not that really solve this whole 
problem of overwork, if you had studied that up? A. No, it 
depends on the factory. 

Q. I know it does. A. I am speaking of the husking. 

Q. I know it does, but could not you study this out according 
to your supply of corn ? A. We do. 

Q. You know how much you will get and when you will get it ? 
A. We do at our factory, but not the buskers. I know how much 
it takes to can corn. 

Q. Have you applied that to the buskers? A. They don't 
work the long hours. 

Q. The people in the factory never work long hours on corn? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. You take care of that, is that so? A. No, sir, we can't 
always plan. 

Q. Why can't you? A. We can to a certain extent, but we 
don't know what is going to be delivered from day to day. 

Q. You know about what is going to come in ? A. We may 
think what it is going to be. 

Q. . Then there is no necessity of working anybody fifteen hours 
a day? A. Yes, sir, if the machinery breaks down. It is prob- 
able on that day there was trouble, if you will look it up. 

Q. What date is that? A. August 25. 
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Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. That isn't what I have. I referred to the 2d of September, 
when you worked fifteen hours a day ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You had seventeen people working more than fifteen hours 
a day on the 2nd of September. What was the reason for that ? 
A. Probably on account of the immense amount of corn coming 
in at that time. 

Q. If you had put on thirty-four people could not they have 
done it 'i Could not you send out and get more people ? A. We 
would have to build an additional factory. 

Q. You haven't room? A. We have a big capacity for com, 
but if we put on thirty-four more people — 

Q. If you had five more people it would cut down the hours to 
ten hours a day ? A. But they could not increase the machinery 
part of the business. 

Q. Well, the fact is, you contract for more corn than you can 
handle ? A. No, the corn is not usually controlled. We have not 
had one-half of what we could handle if we could get it in prop- 
erly. 

Q. If you could spread it over more than a month ? A. If we 
could get the crop right. 

Q. How long would you have to work if you could get the 
com evenly delivered while the corn lasts, during the thirty 
days ? You would not have to work more than ten hours a day ? 
A. Not often. 

Q. How often does the thing happen that you have to work 
fourteen or fifteen hours a day ? A. That depends on the weather, 

mostly. 

Q. What are your limits of hours that you tr}^ to do ? A. We 
try to do ten hours' work if we can in our labor room, and other 
places where we have work to do we try to maintain a ten-hour 
day system as far as possible. 

Q. Is com so perishable it can't be kept over night? A. No, 
sir, it will keep over night. The same thing applies to corn as 
does to peas or beans. 

Q. You mean to say com in the husk won't keep over twenty- 
four hours? A. It will keep three days, but it is not palatable 
the way it would be if it was canned the day it is picked. You 
get a lower grade of com. 






Arthur S. Hall. 



259 



Q. Isn't it practically as good if kept for twenty-four hours? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. If corn is shipped to market, it is more than twenty-four 
hours' old before it is received? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And then exposed in the groceryman's store without refrig- 
eration twenty-four hours or more and sold for fine eating corn? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. But that is not as good as the com you can ? A. No, sir. 

Q. And you don't get as good a price for it as they do ? A. No, 
sir. 

Q. The only reason, I understand, you have to work people 
fourteen or fifteen hours a day, or thirteen hours a day, or any 
day more than ten hours, is because you don't want this com to 
spoil by being kept overnight ? A. No, sir, we have to carry com 
overnight, and the machines have to work late on it often. 

Q. And those days that you carry it over nights, these people 
don't sit around for half an hour at a time? A. No, sir. 

Q. Those days they would work steadily, the days you are 
readv? A. Yes. 

Q. By a little scientific management and study of the subject, 
couldn't you arrange this thing so as to avoid the overwork? 
A. No, sir, you can't alwaj^s. We are trying every possible way, 
in fact, I personally am. 

Q. I have .no doubt you are making your personal efforts. 
I am really try^ing to get at the facts and find out about the sub- 
ject, whether you cannot arrange a simple method for keeping 
your com ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Couldn't you? A. No, sir, you could not, any more than 
we have done. 

Q. You think you have got it as near perfect as you can get 
it? A. Yes, I think we have. 

Q. On what basis do you contract for corn? A. On the basis 
of that contract. 

Q. When do you sign the contract ? Do you take anybody that 
comes along that you can make a bargain with? A. No. sir, 
we have a man that makes the contracts, and he figures out how 
many acres of corn will make so many cases. 




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Q. How much do you contract for I A. I don't know what the 
acreage is. We contract from our contractors. One year the 
corn may yield sixty cases to the acre, and another year it may 
yield only twenty-five cases. 

Q. How many acres do you usually say you can take of corn ? 
A. I don't know. 

Q. Does anybody figure that. A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How many cases do you think you can take in a season? 
A. Depends on our sales. 

Q. Have you sold your corn before you buy it? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you take in all you can sell, irrespective of the capac- 
ity of the factory ? A. Unless we can — 

Q. (Interrupting.) The only limit of your contract for com 
is what vou can sell or have sold before the contract? A. Not 
always. T don't know: I think not. 

Q. Who decides that. A. Mr. Olney or Mr. Bailey takes 
care of that. 

Q. As you understand it, is that the mle? A. We try to do 
that, as I understand it. 

Q. You buv as much corn as vou have sold? A. We contract 
for. 

Q. That is right, is it? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. The factory itself and the capacity of the factory does not 
enter into that? A. That is all arranged in our department. 

Q. What is your capacity for com? A. Our capacity for 
corn would be about 3,000 cases per day. 

Q. And how many hours per day would you have to work to 
turn out 3,000 cases? A. Xot over ten hours. 

Q. So, when you work fifteen hours a day, how many do you 
turn out, 4,500 ? A. Probably, if we had nothing happen to the 
machinery, the canning machinery. There is always something 
wrong. 

Q. The next tiling after corn is what? A. Pumpkin. 

Q. How do you buy that ? A. Buy that by the ton. 

Q. Same way ? A. By the ton. We don't contract for that, 
but buy it. 

Q. And that is delivered here by the farmer? A. Yes. 

Q. That keeps, doesn't it? A. Yes, sir. 



Arthur S. Hall. 



261 



Q. There is no need of working overtime on that, at all? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you ever work overtime on it? A. No, sir. 

Q. What are your hours of work on that? A. Seven to six,, 
usually. 

Q. That is ten hours a day? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Paid by the hour ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Ten cents an hour? A. No; we don't have women on that. 

Q. Men ? A. Yes. 

Q. How many employed on that? A. About twenty-five. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. How much do you pay the men on pumpkins? A. Any- 
where from fifteen cents to twenty-five cents. 

Q. You pay a little more on them than you do on the beans? 
A. On some of our work we may. 

Q. Isn't that due to the fact that they only work ten hours 
and you have to pay them more? A. No; the only reason that 
they may be on the pay roll more is because we hire some men to 
straighten our machines around and they have nothing more to 
do during the pumpkin season and we use them on that par- 
ticular work. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. When is the pumpkin season? A. They begin right after 
the end of the corn canning season. Squash follows pumpkin. 

Q. How long does it last? A. Well, I haven't the pumpkin 
dates here. 

Q. You never work more than ten hours on pumpkin, do you ? 
A. Not unless something happens. 

Q. What do you mean? A. Unless machinery breaks down 
after the pumpkin is steamed. 

Q. You don't have machinery breaking down every day? 
A. Pretty near that. 

Q. On the pumpkins? A. No. 

Q. You don't have machinery breaking down on pumpkins at 
all? A. We did one day. 

Q. And that day you worked how many hours? A. I don't 
know how many. 



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Q. Is that the only day you worked overtime? A. To my 
knowledge, yes. 

Q. Then, you would be surprised to find in the pumpkin sea- 
.son that you worked nine days overtime? A. Well, that might 
have been on steamer work on it 

Q. You worked twelve hours a day for nine days ? A. I don^t 
remember that. 

Q. Don't you keep records of this ? A. No, sir. I have other 
work and my assistant can take charge of the pumpkin packing 
and squash, and I don't have anything to do with that. 

Q. But on the 23d of September you had twenty-five women 
working twelve hours a day on pumpkins ? A. September 23 ? 

Q. What are they doing on pumpkins, twentv-five women? 
A. The 23d of September? 

Q. les. A. We were canning com; finished canning com at 
Kome, here. 

Q. The 24th. Were you canning com on September 24th? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. Well, you say you had com on the 23d ? A. Yes. 
Q. What were they doing? A. Worked how long, twelve 
hours that day? 

Q. I made a mistake. I said September 23d; I should have 
said October 23d. Is that right? You had twenty-five women 
working twelve hours a day. What were they doing ? A. Label 
room. 

Q. What? A. Labelling, probably. 

Q. There is no need of working on the labeling? A. There 
were some shipments with a msh on them and they probably 
worked twelve hours a day. 

Q. What do they get for labeling? A. Ten cents an hour. 

Q. Is that just as you want to make the shipments in a hurry ? 
A. We probably had some shipments before navigation closed. 

By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. Assuming you have to work over ten hours — A. Not 
necessarilv. 

Q. To make a living wage they have got to work twelve hours 
or more. It is really an incentive to work overtime? A. Nat- 
urally it is; yes. 



Arthur S. Hall. 



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Q. That is the only way they can make a living out of it? 
A. No; it is to make all the money they can. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. On October 24th you had twenty women working twelve 
hours; were they labeling, too? A. I don't know; I have got 
nothing — 

Q. (Interrupting.) Is there any book or paper in the office 
that would refresh your recollection? A. No; but it can be 
found what they were doing. 

Q. Who can find it ? A. By the pay roll. 

Q. Will you look that up and answer that after lunch? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. On the lOtli of October you had twenty-one women work- 
ing twelve hours a day. Bring your pay roll and time book 
here. A. I will. 

Recess was taken until 2 p. m. 



After Recess. 
Arthur S. Hall recalled, testified as follows: 
Direct examination continued. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Now, Mr. Hall, the seats on which these women and all 
your employees sit have no backs to them, have they? A. No, 
sir. 

Q. Do you favor that they should have backs ? A. Yes. 

Q. Have you done anything to give them backs? A. No, sir; 
nothing more than we are going to put them in next year entirely. 
We have at our farm factory, I believe, and some other. I don't 
know for sure, but I think this year we had taken the matter up 
with a manufacturing concern about getting these seats and the 
reason — they gave us a few and we had old stools enough and 
we did not want to go into it until we had enough to put them 
all in because some would be obliged to sit on a straight stool 
while others had a back to them. 



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Q. The only trouble, and the reason you have to work over 
hours, as I understand it, is because you could not put on enough 
men and women when you get this rush of work, you have not 
got enough room to place them ? A. It is not enough capacity of 
machinery. 

Q. That is the only reason you don't double it ? A. That would 
probably be the only reason. We would prefer to do that way 
if we could, but there is no way that we can do it. 

Q. Without enlarging your plant? A. That is the idea. 

Mr. Olney: I wish to ask if there is any objection, as this 
is taking quite an exhaustive examination, any objection, espe- 
cially as the Commission has the benefit of counsel, of counsel 
coming in to protect the witness ? 

Senator Wagner: You can have counsel present, but I won't 
permit outside counsel to interfere with the proceedings. If 
there is any way he wants to protect you or the witness in his 
rights, he may at any time interrupt to suggest something to the 
Commission, but the Conamission, I am sure, won't at this time 
permit outside counsel to cross-examine or examine witnesses. 
But we are perfectly willing to have him present here, and any- 
time he thinks the Commission is doing an unfair thing, or you 
want to make some suggestion to protect your rights, we will hear 
him ; or he can suggest questions to counsel for the Commission. 

Mr. Olney: We ask the same permission for coimsel to 
examine, that counsel for the Commission has. 

Senator Wagner: The Commission denies that application. 
I will say that we are very glad for you to have your counsel 
present here, and at any time that he feels an injustice is being 
done by the Commission, he may suggest, may interrupt the pro- 
ceeding to suggest, and he may make any suggestion he desires. 
If he wants to ask any questions, he may ask the questions 
through the counsel to the Commission. That is, if the Com- 
mission thinks they are fair and proper questions. 

Mr. Olney: But you won't consent to his asking any ques- 
tions himself, direct? 



Arthur S. Hall. 



265 



Senator Wagner : IN'o. I have never heard of an investigat- 
ing committee permitting that. Is counsel present ? 

Mr. Olney: 'No, sir. Would you consent to the counsel for 
this company, if this investigation is continued here, that counsel 
have the privilege of knowing what testimony has been given, 
if you won't give him the privilege of asking questions direct, and 
the permission of suggesting questions to the other counsel ? 

Senator Wagner: Certainly. He may do that at any time. 
I don't know how he can do that to-day, but we have no objection 
to his having the testimony later and doing it. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Now, Mr. Hall, who fixes the rates paid for these people ? 
A. I do, principally. 

Q. That is purely arbitrary, isn't it, for all the employees ? A. 
The employees in general ? 

Q. There is no scale of wages ? A. Xo, sir. We have adopted 
a scale in each department. Usually that scale is adopted when 
we have work to do. 

Q. Isn't the trouble as Mr. Phillips, one of the members of 
the Commission, suggested ? The reason these people are willing 
to work such hours is because the rate of wages that you pay is 
so low they can't earn a sufiicient amount in the legal ten hours ? 
A. I don't think so. 

Q. Xow, you have got your time book; these books have been 
produced, and they are the time books of this year and last year ? 
A. No, The time books of last year and the year previous. 

Q. Let's get the time book of last year. Turn to the date of 
October 23, 1911. A. Yes; I have it 

Q. Now, what does your time book show as the names of per- 
sons working and the hours they began working? A. No; just 
shows hours worked. 

Q. How many people were working ten hours a day on that 
date, October 23rd ? Does it give the names ? A. Yes. 

Q. Are they all women? A. (No answer.) 

Q. Our records show on October :>3, 1911, twenty-five women 
worked twelve hours that day; is that correct? A. Yes, sir. 






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Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. What were they working at ? A. I think that was labeling. 

Q. Well, of course, there is no hurry about labeling, is there? 
A. Not unless we have some special thing to get out before navi- 
gation closes ; sometimes we are rushed for a day or two. 

Q. Can you tell what they were doing? A. I think it was 
labeling on here. 

Q. How much do they get for that, ten cents an hour ? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. W^hat time do they start to work? A. I haven't got that 
here. 

Q. The next day there were twenty-three women working for 
twelve hours a day ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Is that right? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What were those women doing? A. Simply women label- 
ling. 

Q. How many men were working on the 23d of October? A. 
Thirty some men. 

Q. How many hours were they working ? A. They worked the 
same number of hours. 

Q. Twelve hours? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What were they doing? A. Attending labeling machines 
and nailing up cases. 

Q. Was that work there, was any hurry on account of pre- 
ser\dng of fruit? A. No, sir. 

Q. The next day how many men worked ? A. About the same 
number. 

Q. And how many hours. A. Ten hours. 

Q. They were doing the same kind of work? A. Yes, sir; anl 
ten hours the balance of the week. 

Q. Now, turn to October 10th. How many women were work 
ing then and how many hours that day ? 

Senator Wagner: The dates in this book are not in con- 
secutive order? 

The Witness : No. 

Senator Wagner : Why is that ? 

The Witness : Because somebody has evidently been using the 
books and has not put them back. 



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Arthur S. Hall. 



267 



Senator Wagner : Are there any dates missing here ? 

The Witness : Yes. There were several, but I can't tell how 
many. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Men or women ? A. I can't tell you. 

Q. What were they doing ? A. I can't tell you that. 

Q. My records show that on October 10th, twenty-one women 
were working twelve hours ; is that correct ? A. There is twenty- 
four here that have been working; whether men or women I can't 
state. 

Q. How much did they get, ten cents an hour? A. (No 
answer. ) 

Q. You can't tell what they were working at ? A. No ; I think 
at that time, October 8th — I don't know. 

Q. Can anybody tell us what they were doing ? A. Not unless 
we looked up the time cards, if they haven't been destroyed. 

Q. October 12th. Did you get that date? A. Yes, sir; that 
is on the same payroll. 

Q. Well, on October 12th there were twenty women worked 
twelve hours ; is that correct ? A. It seems to be. 

Q. Can you tell what they were doing ? A. No, sir. 

Q. How much did they get an hour ? A. Ten cents. 

Q. On October 16th there were twenty-four women working 
twelve hours a day. The corn season was over then, wasn't it? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. So it could not be corn ? A. No, sir. 

Q. That is, there can't be any corn after October 9th ? A. After 
September 23 d. 

Q. So this must be something else ? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you find that ? Is that right ? A. I find it ; yes. That 
is right. 

Q. What is it, twenty women October 12th or twenty-four 
women October 16th? A. The 16th there seems to be no one but 
men. 

Q. Twenty-four women I have October 16th? A. They seem 
to be all men. 



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Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. How many hours did they work, Mr. Hall ? Can you find 
that? A. ]^o. 

Q. Look at October 17th. What do you find there? A. All 
men, I think. 

Q. Look at October 19th. A. Yes, sir; all men, too. 

Q. Any overtime ? A. Yes, sir ; there is nine overtime. 

Q. Twelve hours a day ? A. Some eleven, some thirteen ; men. 

Q. What were they working at ? A. It don't seem to be here, 
what they were on. 

Q. What could it be ? A. It might be general repairing, with 
tho men working; or it might have been in the shipping-room. 

Q. When is your time keeper returning from Syracuse ? A. I 
expect him back to-night. 

Q. When did he go ? A. This morning. 

By Senator Wagner : 

Q. Have you got a factory in Syracuse? A. No. He is just 
on a short trip. What is that date again, please? 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. September first. What do you find? A. September first, 
you say ? 

Q. Yes. How many women and men were working more than 
ten hours a day? A. Several men. 

Q. What do you mean by several ? A. Well, there is seven or 
eight here on that page. 

Q. How many hours, fourteen or fifteen? A. Eleven and 
three-quarters ; eleven and three-quarters ; eleven and one-quarter ; 
ten and one-half; nine; seven and one-half; ten; nine; seven; 
eleven and three-quarters; eleven and three-quarters; eleven and 
three-quarters; eleven and three-quarters; eleven and three- 
quarters. 

Q. How about the women on the first of September ? What do 
you find there ? A. September first ? I have it. 

Q. How many women worked more than ten hours ? A. Four- 
teen. Several of them only worked — 

Q. (Interrupting) How many hours? A. Eleven and one-half. 

Q. Weren't there eleven women who worked thirteen hours? 
A. On September first ? 



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Arthur S. Hai.l. 



269 



Q. Yes? A. Ten. 

Q. What were they doing? A. Stringing beans; working on 
beans. 

Q. What were the women doing? A. Canning and sorting 
tables, and such work. 

Q. You mean picking out the bad ones ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And they get ten cents an hour? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. On the next day, the 2nd of September, you find there was 
seventeen women who worked fifteen hours ? A. Seventeen 
women ? 

Q. Yes. A. Eight women. 

Q. What were they doing, same thing? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Ten cents an hour ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. On these days the women worked that length of time were 
there auv men who worked seventeen hours and sixteen hours ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What were they doing? A. I don't know whether they 
worked sixteen hours. They worked about the same length of 
time as the women did. 

Q. Were they doing the same thing ? 
same, unless I look on the book here. 

Q. Let us get the 12th day of July, 
want it? 

Q. Yes ; for women. What season is that ? A. 1911. 

Q. What do you do in the middle of July ? A. Canning peas. 
July 13th? 

Q. l^o; the 12th. A. Yes, sir; I have it. 

Q. How many women were there working then more than ten 
hours a day? Forty-seven, weren't there? A. Well, there is 
quite a lot of them. 

Q. What were they all doing? A. Sorting peas. 

Q. Ten cents an hour ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. On these dates, how many worked sixteen hours, among 
these women ? A. We had some women putting on caps that day. 

Q. Were there thirty-five women on that day who worked sixteen 
hours? A. Thirty-six. 

Q. That would be from when, until when ? A. I don't remem- 
ber the hours. 



A. Well, I can't say the 
A. For women, do you 



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Minutes of Public Heaeings. 



Q. If they began at seven, they would end at what, twelve ? A. 
At twelve in the morning. 

Q. That would be an hour for luncheon and eleven hours in the 
afternoon would be until 12 o'clock? A. Yes; it would be 
1 o'clock. 

Q. Now, on that same day were there five women who worked 
eighteen hours ? A. Four women, it seems to be. 

Q. Well, we have five. They worked from 7 o'clock one morn- 
ing until 2 the next morning ? A. The probabilities are that these 
women, they all came together there at the same time, and some 
of them were a couple of hours short in their pay and he punched 
it on for the same day, and they all worked together. 

Q. So far as you know, these women worked eighteen hours ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. The women who worked on caps, they would have to work 
longer, wouldn't they, to finish up ? A. Yes. 

Q. What do they get, ten cents ? A. Twelve and one-half. 

Q. And the women who fill the cans, do they stay later ? A. The 
fillers? They are filled automatically. 

Q. Were there any men who worked that day sixteen, seventeen 
or eighteen hours ? A. Yes, sir ; here is a man starting in, eigh- 
teen, another eighteen; yes, sir. 

Q. How many men who worked that number of hours ? A. I 
should judge there was fifty. 

Q. :N^ow, all of these men were doing what, Mr. Hall ? A. They 
were taking care of the machines, waiting on the tables; and after 
the women went home, probably cleaning up. 

Q. Did they go to work again the next day at seven o'clock ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Or rather, the same morning at seven? A. The same 
women and same men. 

Q. Same force? A. I guess they did. 

Q. Then, the following day there were on the 13th, there were 
thirty-three women who worked fourteen and one-quarter hours; 
were there any of the thirty-three of those same women? A. I 
should judge there was, if it was copied correctly. 

Q. And ^ve worked fifteen and one-quarter; of the same 
women? A. I should judge so. 



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Arthur S. Hall. 271 

Q. And two of them worked sixteen hours? A. I find one 
here that worked sixteen hours. 

Q. Now, go back, will you please — 

By Senator Wagner : 

Q. Do you know check No. 72, Miss Hendry ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Is she working in this factory ? A. Not this year. 

Q. Well, she worked in July, 1911? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You notice that during the week of July 10th she worked, 
according to your own records, on Monday, thirteen hours? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. On Tuesday, fifteen hours ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. On Wednesday, sixteen hours? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. On Thursday, sixteen hours ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. On Friday, fourteen hours ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. On Saturday, thirteen hours? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. On Sunday, fifteen hours? A. That fifteen on Sunday is 
double time; that figure in there of Sunday time is double time. 
That means she worked seven and one-half hours. 

Q. So, actually, in that week, she worked ninety-nine hours? 
A. That is correct. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Now turn to Mrs. Fraser; have you got her name there in 
the 1910 book? A. Yes, sir. 

By Miss Deeiee: 

Q. Why do you figure that double time, why do you fig-ure that 
up on the hours instead of in the pay? A. We do around here 
so as to make our payroll up, so as to make one entry right 
through. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. What do these women get for ninety-nine hours? A. This 
woman got $10.60. 

By Miss Dreiee: 

Q. Then, your time book sometimes shows an excess of hours ? 
A. Yes, on Sundays; it might be a case they worked ten hours 
to-day and a woman's card would be punched short, and when 



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she got her pay she would speak to the bookkeeper, and to-morrow 
she might work ten hours and he would punch twelve hours. 
Q. That doesn't happen frequently, does it ? A. No. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. How often do you pay double time ? Do you do that often ? 
A. On Sundays. 

Q. Every person that works on Sundays? A. Yes; everyone. 

Q. That is the rule ? A. That was our rule. 

Q. It is not now ? A. No. If I was doing it now I would not 
do it. 

Q. You don't do it now? A. We pay time and a half. 

By Miss Dkeier: 

Q. Do you have a record of the number of hours the women 
work in the factory if they work on piece work as well as time? 
A. Yes. 

Q. You know exactly the number of hours, whether on piece 
work or by the hour? A. Yes. We keep this for your people's 
benefit. 

Bv Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Now, if you will get July, 1910, beginning July 11th, No. 
54. A. There is no payroll here; there is another one back of 
this we haven't got. 

Q. Well, then, take July, 1911, and go back to July 11th. 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Were there thirty-six women who worked fifteen and three- 
quaii;er hours that day? A. No piece-work except on beans. I 
presume it is if they are copied correctly here, and if they are 
counted correctly. 

Q. And these are the same women I have taken over again, 1 
and 2 ? A. It is. 

Q. Women who worked fifteen and sixteen, seventeen and 
eighteen hours. They came back the next morning and worked 
over again ? A. I presume they did ; yes, sir. 

Q. Now, on the 16th of July, were there thirty-five women who 
worked fifteen and three-quarter hours ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And these women who worked — there were six women who 



Arthur S. Hall. 



273 



Y 



worked fourteen and one-half hours? A. Yes, sir. That was 
double time. They only worked seven hours that day; that was 
Sunday. 

Q. That was a Sunday ? A. Yes ; they only worked one-half of 
the time shown on this book. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. I want to ask you if women work in the shed and then go 
from the shed to the factory ? Have you got a record of the time 
they worked in the sheds ? A. On the beans ? 

Q. Yes; in each instance? A. No. The people working in 
the factory we don't allow in the sheds. We have notices to that 
effect all through the factory. 

Q. You don't allow women to come from the shed to the fac- 
tory ? A. No. We have a notice forbidding them to go from the 
factory to the shed. 

Q. Have you got a record showing the children's pay on beans ? 
A. No. 

Q. Do you keep any record of the women's work in the shed, 
except just a slip they keep themselves ? A. We only have a record 
of the total amount paid to them at the end of the season. 

Q. And it doesn't tell, and you don't know, whether they are 
children or grown people, or what they are? A. We know what 
they are when they get the pay. 

Q. But you have no record of it at all ? A. No. 

Bv Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Mr. Hall, in the factory do the women weigh the cans of 
beans after they come out of the machines? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. To see if they are over or under weight ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And they either fill them up or take out, if they are over 
weight? A. Yes. 

Q. How many women, to-day, are doing that work ? A. Eleven, 
I believe. 

Q. Do you provide seats for those women ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Are there seats to-day ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Our report shows that on August 9th there were nine women 
standing weighing cans of beans, and that no seats were provided. 



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A. If you will go to the factory to-day I think you will find seats 
under every table for the women, for every woman in that room. 

Q. Have you got your time sheets for this year, month of 
July? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Turn to July 6th. Have you worked on Sunday this year 
at all? A. No, sir. 

Q. Have you a factory at Kirkland ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you work women there Sunday ? A. I believe we did, 
one Sunday. 

Q. Did you take them there yourself? A. Yes, sir; nine of 
them. 

Q. Then you know it ; there is no belief about it ? A. I took 

them over; yes, sir. 

Q. Well, why did you say you believed it? A. I didn't think 
of going over there. 

Q. How long ago is that ? A. That is on the 5th, 6th, 7th or 
8th of July ; some time in July. 

Q. How many women did you take there? A. I think it was 
nine or ten; ten I believe. 

Q. What kind of a factory have you got there ? A. The same 

kind. 

Q. The same kind of a factory at Kirkland? A. Canning 

factory. 

Q. What do you can, the same as here? A. Com and peas. 

Q. What was the reason you took these women there Sunday? 
A. For the reason they had boiler trouble the night before and 
his help went home and he had to draw the fire and fix the boiler 
in some way, and he dismissed his help and I sent an engineer 
over to the plant at midnight and found he had some peas that 
ought to be canned and his help was gone, so we took over ten 
girls from the city here. 

Q. How long did they work there? A. I think about eight 

hours. 

Q. They worked from 8 in the morning until 6:30 at night? 
A. They left here at 8 o'clock in the morning in automobiles from 
this ofiice; they arrived home here at about 6:30. 

Q. What did you pay them? A. I paid them $1.50 apiece for 
a day's work on Sunday ; time and a half ; gave them their full 
day's pay. 



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Q. Now, is that the 1910 book? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. JSfow, if you wiU turn to July 11th, find No. 54. 
A. Eighteen hours. 

Q. Eighteen on the 11th? A. Yes. 

Q. What was the time on the 12 th ? A. Nineteen. 

Q. The 13th? A. Nineteen, 

Q. The 14th ? A. Nineteen. 

Q. The 15th? A. Nothing the rest of the week. 

Q. What was he doing those days? A. Oiling, I believe. 

Q. Would he be the kind to drop off that week ? A. Yes. At 
noontime he didn't stop for dinner. He was a hobo and wanted 
to get his time in, and that is where he got in his extra time. 

Q. Didn't take any lunch at all? A. Only took ten minutes 
to get his lunch, and we let him have his pay for the time he is 
eating; he wanted to get his pay. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Here is No. 28, July 11, 1910, a man named Otis Parker, 
worked on Monday eighteen hours; Tuesday, twenty hours; 
Wednesday, nineteen hours; Thursday, nineteen hours; Friday, 
nineteen hours; on Saturday, nineteen hours; and on Sunday he 
got double time, he worked fourteen hours. A. Correct. 

Q. That is all right, isn't it ? A. Yes, sir ; he is still living. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. How much per hour did he get? A. He is a step-son of 
the assistant superintendent here of this factory. 

Q. What did he earn that week? A. $46.10. 

Q. Look at check No. 54 on the women's list. A. Mrs. Wash- 
bum; 53, Mrs. Eraser. 

Q. Well, get Mrs. Eraser. How many hours on the 11th? 
A. Sixteen. 

Q. The 12th ? A. Twenty-three and three-quarters. 

Q. What does that mean? A. That means that someone has 
punched her card for back time because there was no one else 
worked on that day for that length of time, and she certainly 
could not. 

Q. Why couldn't she? A. Because she would be all alone, 
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By Miss Dbeieb: 

Q. Well, then, your time book is not correct ? I mean if the 
factory inspector of New York State comes and sees your book, 
there is nothing to show that any time is right on that book, be- 
cause they punch any old thing they wish ? A. That is only a 
case — she could not have worked that number of hours, because 
nobody else was here. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. According to the record she worked twenty-three and three- 
quarter hours ? A. Yes. 

Q. What did she work the next day ? A. Nineteen. 

Q. The fourteenth ? A. Fourteen hours. 

Q. The sixteenth? A. Seventeen and three-quarters. 

Q. The seventeenth ? A. Eighteen and one-half. 

Q. That makes a total of 120 hours a week ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did she get paid for that ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How much ? A. $12. 

Q. Are there any women other than she who worked as long 
as that ? What is next on your book for that week, the longest 
number of hours ? Check No. 1, who is that woman ? A. Mrs. 
Labar. 

Q. She worked one hundred and eight and one-half hours ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Keceived how much? A. $10.85. 

Q. What is next? A. One hundred and seven and three- 
quarters. 

Q. Name? A. Bertha Hendricks. 

Q. How much? A. $10.78. 

Q. Next? A. Mrs. Buck. 

Q. How much? A. $10.28. 

Q. How many hours ? A. One hundred and two and two-thirds. 

Q. Go right down the line? A. Mrs. Hugo, 9, one hundred 
twelve and one-quarter; she received $11.22. 

Mira Pelton, one hundred and seventeen and one-half, $11.75. 

Mrs. Walter, one hundred and two and one-quarter, $10.22. 

Mrs. Smith, one hundred and twelve and one-half, $11.25. 

Mrs. Payne, one hundred and twelve and one-quarter, $11.22. 



Arthur S. Hall. 



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Mrs. Hughes, one hundred and seven and one-quarter, $10.72. 
Nellie Broderick, one hundred and thirteen and one-quarter, 
$11.32. 

Mrs. H. Hazard, one hundred and one and three-quarters, 
$10.18. 

Elizabeth Core, one hundred and twelve, $11.20. 

Estelle Hicks, one hundred and twelve and one-quarter, $11.22. 

Mrs. Owens, one hundred and fifteen, $11.50. 

Mrs. McLarens, one hundred and fifteen, $11.50. 

Mrs. Irish, one hundred and eight and one-quarter, $10.82. 

Mrs. Owens, eighty-six and one-quarter, $8.62. 

Mrs. Rodgers, one hundred and eight, $10.80. 

Mrs. Ferguson, $9.35. 

Q. Was this seven days in the week, or how much ? A. Seven ; 
including double time on Sunday. 

Q. How many hours did they work on Sunday? A. Ten 
hours and a half on that day, on Sunday ; so they got twenty-one 
hours for it. 

Q. So as not to take up your time and ours, would you have 
a copy of this time sheet made and send it to us ? A. Yes ; Mr. 
Olney probably will. 

Mr. Elkus: Mr. Olney, wijl you have a copy of this sheet 
made and sent to us? 

Mr. Olney : Yes, sir ; if you will mark the page. 

Mr. Elkus (marking pages) : Take this one and the week be- 
fore and the week after; the women and the men. 

Mr Olney: Yes, sir. 

Bv Mr. Elkus : 

t.' 

Q. Turn to Mrs. Eraser and see whether she worked — what 
have you got down for her working on Sunday in eTuly, 1910 ? 
A. Eighteen and one-half hours. 

Q. Actual ? A. That is what is down. It should be nine and 
three-quarters. 

Q. Does it show the double rate ? A. Yes. 

Q. What did she get paid ? A. She got paid $12. 



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Q. That is one hundred and twenty hours? A. Yes; but her 
actual work would be nine and one-quarter hours less. 

Q. Did she get the double rate on Sunday ? A. Yes ; everybody 
got double rate on Sunday — men, women and everybody. 

Q. Turn to 1911, for this same week; get the women. A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, take 823. A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What is the woman^s name ? A. Mrs. Griffith. 

Q. How many hours did she work in the week beginning July 
10th ? A. One hundred and four hours. 

Q. How much did she get? A. She got $10.40. She only 
worked seven and one-half hours less than that. 

Q. That is on account of Sunday? A. Yes. 

Q. Now, the next woman, another Mrs. Griffith ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. She worked how many hours ? A. Ninety-nine ; that would 
be eight less, or ninety-one hours. 

Q. The next woman, Mrs. Mooner ? A. One hundred and one ; 
ninety-two hours, as counted here. 

Q. The fifteen and three-quarter hours on Sunday was double 
time? A. Yes. 

Q. The next woman, Mrs. Broderick A. Fifty-eight hours. 

Q. Next woman, Mrs. O'Connor? A. Ninety-seven. 

Q. Mrs. Thayer, the next woman? A. One hundred and nine 
and one-half hours. 

Q. Mrs. Adams? A. One hundred and six and one-half. 

Q. Mrs. Higgins ? A. Eighty-one and one-half hours. 

Q. Mrs. Van Alstine? A. Eighty-one and three-quarters. 

Q. Mrs. Green? A. One hundred and one-quarter. 

Q. Mrs. Doolittle? A. Nothing. 

Q. Mrs. Eeese? A. One hundred and four. 

Q. Mrs. McAdoo? A. Ninety-six. 

Q. Mrs. Smith ? A. Ninety-seven. 

Q. Mrs. Sanders? A. Twenty-eight and three-quarters. 

Q. Only three days? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Mrs. Owens didn't work at all ? A. No. 

Q. LaBar, No. 840 ; how many did she work ? A. Fifty-eight 
and one-quarter. 

Q. Mrs. Davis? A. Nothing. 



Arthur S. Hall. 



279 



Q. Isn't it a fact that in your book the words " double time " 
sometimes appears and not in others ? A. I don't think it appears 
in here anywhere, although it has always been the rule until this 
year. This year we have done no Sunday work, except once on 
that Kirkland trip, and I gave time and a half until they re- 
turned. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. In this heavy rush, do you pay the women if they stop their 
lunch hour shortly after lunch hour ? A. Yes. 

Q. You do? A. Not foi? the hour. If we pay them to work 
all night we serve free lunch and give half an hour to give it to 
them; enough time to serve. 

Q. And you don't deduct that? A. No. 

Q. That was included in that time, the half hour? A. Yes; 
always. They are not punched off at all. 

Q. Then, during the day when the rush is on, do you do that 
with the women, give them so much allowance for fifteen minutes ? 
A. No, ma'am ; one hour. 

Q. You give them one hour i A. They take one hour. 

Q. You don't pay them? A. No. 

Q. You don't ever promise to pay them for an hour's work if 
they take less than an hour for lunch ? A. No. Only these extra 
men that oil the machinery when it stops, are the only people 
we give an hour noon and an hour supper time. 

Q. Have you ever had that practice of giving the women lunch 
in other years and paying them for the lunch hour if they hurry 
up? A. What do you mean, for the supper hour? 

Q. If you get around 12 o'clock and tell them if they hurry 
up a bit, say twenty minutes or half an hour for luncheon, or 
fifteen minutes, you will pay them for the whole hour's work ? A. 
You mean at mid-day? 

Q. Yes. A. No; we have never done it. 

Q. You have never done it ? A. No. We have at 12 o'clock 
at night. If they would happen to be late at night we don't take 
any time off, but furnish lunch free and stop half an hour for 
them to eat it. 



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Q. But during the mid-noon-day meal and night meal ? A. TVe 
give them one hour. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Do you can tomatoes here too, in the factory^ A. Not 
here; in South Jersey. 

Q. Where is the factory ? A. Glassboro, Xew Jersey. 

James P. Olney, being duly sworn, testified as follows: 

Direct examination bv^ ^Ir. Elkus: 

Q. Mr. Olney, what officer are you of the Fort Stanwix Can- 
ning Company ? A. Treasurer. 

Q. Who is president? A. I am president, also. 

Q. What other officers are there? A. Secretary and vice-presi- 
dent. 

Q. Does the same person till both offices ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Who is vice-president ? A. Mr. Baily. 

Q. What is his name? A. George G. Baily. 

Q. Who! is secretary? A. Mr. A. Whitingill. 

Q. Do they live in Rome ( A. No, sir. Mr. Baily does. 

Q. Mr. Whitingill lives where? A. At Fulton. 

Q. And how long have you been president and treasurer of 
this company? A. Since 1902. 

Q. Before that were you connected wath it ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And in what capacity? A. Treasurer. 

Q. How long have you been treasurer ? A. Prior to that time ? 

Q. Yes; since what year? A. From 1894. Yes, I think it 
was 1895. 

Q. Were you in the canning business prior to that? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. In what capacity ? A. As president, I think, and treasurer. 

Q. Of what company ? A. Of the Rome Canning Company at 
that time. 

Q. Is that the predecessor of this company? A. No, sir. 

Q. Is it a different company? A. Different company. 

Q. Is that still in existence? A. No, sir. 

Q. Was it absorbed by this company, or bought out? A. The 
plant of that company was consolidated at one time with this 
company. 



James P. Olney. 



281 



Q. How long were you connected with the Rome Canning 
Company ? A. From 1890 to 1894 or 1895, I think. 

Q. Have you been in the canning business longer than twenty- 
two years ? A. That was the beginning of my canning factory 
experience, in 1890. 

Q. And are you engaged in any other business ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Have you ever been engaged in any other business or pro- 
fession? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What was that ? A. Lawver. 

Q. You were a lawyer before you became a canner, or are you 
still practising law ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You are a member of the bar ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Is there a canners' association? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How many members are there in that association? A. I 
should guess in the neighborhood of sixty or seventy; sixty I 
think. 

Q. And is it limited to the State of New York ? A. The State 
Association is. 

Q. The State Association. Is there a National Association? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Is the State Association a branch of the National Associa- 
tion? A. No, sir. 

Q. Separate organization entirely? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Who are the other officers of the State Association? Are 
you the president now ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Who is president now ? A. Mr. Winters. 

Q. What is the full name ? A. J. C. Winters. 

Q. What company is he connected with ? A. He lives in Mt. 
Morris. 

Q. Are you an officer of the association at all ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You were president until when? A. Until, I think, in 
June of — the last meeting of which I think was in June. 

Q. Of this year? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Who is vice-president ? A. Mr. E. S. Thorn. 

Q. What company is he with? A. Geneva Preserving Com- 
pany, Geneva. 

Q. Who is treasurer and secretary ? A. The treasurer is Mr. 
Hunt, of Oswego. 



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Q. And the secretary? A. Mr. Hatfield, Utica. 

Q. What are the objects of this association ? A. I think the — 
wouldn't the constitution and by-laws be the best evidence? 

Q. Well, tell us in a general way? A. It is simply in a gen- 
eral way to exchange views and opinions as to general matters 
pertaining to the industry. 

Q. Well, it is also to protect the association and its members 
in the matter of legislation? A. I don't know that that was the 
purpose; it is part of the functions of the association, naturally. 

Q. That is one of the things it does, anyhow? A. Yes, sir, 
I believe so. 

Q. And you yourself have personally appeared before com- 
mittees of the legislature in behalf of the association ? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. And either in favor of proposed legislation or opposed to 
proposed legislation? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And this labor question, I mean the hours of labor which 
pertains to employees in the canning factories, has been much 
discussed in your association, too? A. Yes,, sir. 

Q. And you yourself have considered the matter very carefully, 
have you not, Mr. Olney ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How many factories does this Fort Stanwix Canning Com- 
pany own or control in the State of New York ? A. You mean 
that are operated ? 

Q. Yes; that they operate or own, or both. A. Six or seven 
that we are operating. 

Q. Where are they located ? A. Rome, Fulton, Farnum, Irv- 
ing is not operated, Kirkland, Whitesboro and Waterville. 

Q. And how many people are employed in these factories, al- 
together? A. I can't tell exactly. 

Q. Do they all have sheds attached to them like this one we 
are now in? A. No, sir. 

Q. How many of them have sheds? A. They all have sheds 
of some kind. 

Q. They all employ women and children? A. Yes; but they 
are different construction. 

Q. Some have sheds with machinery in them, do they not ? A. 
Yes, sir. 



James P. Olney. 



283 



Q. Which ones ? A. Why, my recollection is that they all have 
machinery in, that is operated at certain times of the year. 

Q. Well, what do you mean ? Tell us what kind of machinery 
is in them. A. In the different factories in the sheds ? 

Q. Yes; in the sheds. A. In Whitesboro is a conveyor that 
carries the com up into the factory after it is husked. 

Q. Yes. A. At Kirkland there is a conveyor that carries com 
from the shed up into the factory, and also carries the pea vines 
to the shelling machines. At Waterville there is a conveyor that 
carries the peas into the factory and would carry com if we were 
canning it there, but we are not this year, and will not be. 

Q. In all of these that you have told us about, they employ chil- 
dren in those sheds ? A. Not, as I understand it, when any of the 
machinery is in operation. 

Q. Now, Mr. Olney, this question of employing children has 
been one that has come before the Legislature a number of times, 
has it not ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you have appeared before the Legislature with ref- 
erence to it ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And when attempts have been made to enact legislation 
prohibiting the employment of children, you have protested against 
it? A. I have contended that as the employment of children in 
vacation time in the sheds where there was no active machinery 
and where the conditions met the conditions of the Attorney- 
General's opinion — 

Q. (Interrupting) You are referring to the opinion rendered 
by Attorney-General Mayer, that a shed was not a factory? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Of course, if the — if it was a factory there would not be 
any question about it? A. Yes. 

Q. Were you instrumental in obtaining that opinion? Did 
you lay the facts before the Attorney-General and get the opinion ? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. Who did? A. I assume that Labor Commissioner Sher- 
man did. 

Q. Did you have anything to do with the case when it came 
up? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you lay the facts before the Labor Commissioner ? A. 
No, sir. 



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Q. What did yon have to do with it? A. There were some 
people here who went into our sheds without even extending the 
ordinary courtesy of calling at the office, and we learned that 
pictures were being taken, and I went out and asked the person 
to come into the office and told them they did not have to handle 
the matter in that way to ascertain the way that we were doing 
business. Thereafter another gentleman and myself went to 
Albany and saw Labor Commissioner Sherman, under the advice 
of counsel, and asked him to personally investigate the situation, 
and which he did. He investigated three other factories, two 
of which I don't know the names of, and we advised him that if 
it was necessary to place ourselves in a position for a test case 
to have it determined as to whether that class of work came within 
the intent of the Factory Law, that we would willingly place 
ourselves in that position and have the matter determined. 
Mr. Sherman said that he would investigate the matter 
further and read the facts and let us know later what his posi- 
tion would be. And thereafter we were advised by him that the 
Attorney-General had rendered an opinion that when that work 
was done in vacation time where there was no active machinery, 
where the employees could come and go at will, that, in his 
opinion, that class of work where it did not interfere with the 
Educational Law, was not in violation of the statute. 

Q. Did the canners association submit a brief through its 
counsel to the Attorney-General? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did it have a hearing before the Attorney-General? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. Well, now, Mr. Olney, we would be glad to have your 
views on this whole subject, and hear anything you have to say 
upon the entire matter of the employment of children, the em- 
ployment of women, the long hours of labor, and on any other sub- 
jects which the Commission is interested in hearing about. A. I 
wish to say in the outset, not on my own account personally, but 
as reflecting the sentiment of the association, that I only resigned 
from the association because I was unable to give the time to 
legislative matters that I have been doing in the past. I could 
not afford to continue it in justice to the business with which 
I am connected. That was the only reason, and against the senti- 



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Jambs P. Olney. 



285 



ment of the association, that I resigned, and am now acting, if 
there is anything in the association way, at the request of the 
president in his absence; he has asked me to do anything that 
might come up that seemed to call for action on the part of the 
association. 

Q. May I interrupt you a moment ? What is the capital stock 
of your company ? A. I beg your pardon ? 

Q. What is the capital stock of your company ? A. $750,000, 
preferred and common. 

Q. How long has it been that amount? A. Only a month or 
two. 

Q. What was it before? A. $24,000. 

Q. Preferred or common ? A. Common. 

Q. How long had it been $24,000 common, since its organiza- 
tion? A. No, sir; it was $20,000 at the organization. 

Q. Then you increased to $24,000 ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And what is the preferred now ? A. $250,000. 

Q. And the common $500,000 ? A. Yes. 

Q. Is there a regular dividend fixed on the preferred stock by 
the stock itself? A. Seven per cent. 

Q. Seven per cent. ? A. Yes. 

Q. And no dividend has yet been paid on common or pre- 
ferred? A. No. 

Q. How much did you pay, in 1010, on your stock? A. I 
don't remember. 

Q. Was it more than 50 per cent. ? A. I have no recollection, 
sir. 

(}. Was it more than 100 per cent. ? A. I have no recollection 
now, what it was in 1910. 

Q. In 1911 what was it ^ A. Most years no dividend at all; 
or several years, I mean. 

Q. This stock that was in the company, I suppose your new 
stock was issued for the old ? You exchanged your present $250,- 
000 preferred and $500,000 common for your $24,000 common 
stock ? A. Well, that is the practical effect of it. 

Q. It was a stock dividend? A. I don't know the legal end 
of it; I presume so. 



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Q. So the difference between the two amounts represents the 
profits? A. No, not bv any means. 

Q. Well, you put in no new money, did you? A. No, sir; 
except what came in from the preferred stock, and there is an 
amount, $150,000, put in for trade marks and good will. 

Q. In the preferred? A. Jn the common. 

Q. Go right ahead now, Mr. Olney. A. There was paid out 
last year by this company for stringing beans in the neighborhood 
of $11,000 or $12,000. 

Q. To women and children? A. Mostly. The instructions 
this year have been, to tlie inspectoi-s, to prevent so far as possible 
any of the children under 10 years of age doing any work in the 
sheds. Signs were put up at the beginning of the season that they 
should not even come into the yards. Our season is very back- 
ward because of the climatic conditions during the bean-planting 
period. Some years we have all that we can do from the beginning 
of the pick. This year, as has been stated, we have had, prior to 
to-day, two part day pickings since August 2d. There is going to 
be some day a large amount of beans to pick, probably more than 
we can handle, and probably a good many of them will go to waste ; 
the chances are that way. We haven't felt that we could afford to 
turn these women away from the factory who had children under 
10 years of age, or turn the children away from the shed, fearing 
they would drive the parents away to such an extent that we would 
be short of the parents' help when we got into the time when we 
need them badly. 

Q. You are referring, if I may interrupt you, you mean that 
you don't want to turn away children imder 10 years of age, or 
any children, because they are with their mothers ; but that is no 
reason why a child who has no mother or sisters or anyone, aunts 
or uncles, with them, should not be turned away ? A. No. We 
would rather not have them here. 

Q. As a matter of fact, on August 9, 1912, there were 391 
children here of which 353 came entirely alone; did you know 
that? A. What? 

Q. Three hundred and ninety-one children came here on 
August 9th, of which 353 were entirely alone, didn't come with 
mother, aunt, uncle, sister-in-law or grandmother? A. Of what 
age? 



James P. Olney. 



287 



Q. Of any age, 16 and under. A. I should doubt all that very 
much, with all due respect to who made the figures. 

Q. Well, how many do you say were here ? A. I don't say how 
many were here. 

Q. Well, we have the individual records, with the ages and sex 
of each one, and I will show it to you, if you want to verify it. A. 
That would not help us any. 

Q. That is all. A. Well, this is some figures made up by some- 
one; this is under 14 or 16 ? 

Q. Under 16. In other words, Mr. Olney, I understand your 
claim is that a great many of these children here come here be- 
cause they come with their parents ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And if they could not bring them here they w^ould not come 
at all ? A. A good many of them. 

Q. As a matter of fact, on August 9th — this is copied, this 
examination sheet — according to the report made to us, of 
the 391 children here, 353 came alone and of the balance 
only thirty-four of them came with their mothers. That would 
rather contradict what you said, wouldn't it ? A. Yes ; it would. 
I beg your pardon. I think there are other people came with 
them if it is not their parent, or the children have misrepresented 
the situation. 

Q. Well, there is no reason why they should not state it, if 
there was anything about it that was not so ? A. Well, they mis- 
represented. 

Q. Well, one comes with a man and one comes with an uncle, 
and one came with a sister-in-law and one came with a grand- 
mother. Now, of course, the only reason, as you say, that you 
allow any of these children to come, many of them, is because they 
come with their mothers? A. I would rather not have any of 
them imder 10 years old. 

Q. I inform you that on August 9, 1911, on actual examination 
of each child, there was 391 children examined, and 353 of those 
came alone. That surprises you, don't it ? A. It does ; yes, sir. 
Q. And if true, it rather reverses your opinion of the facts, 
doesn't it? A. If it is true the inspectors haven't followed our 
instructions or the children have misrepresented the conditions 
under which they are here. 



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Q. Now, Mr. Olney, you have here, taken at random from your 
own time books, the hours of labor of women in your factory 
proper, showing that in some cases they worked from 90 to 110 
hours a week actual time ; is that necessary ? A. Well, it is 
difficult to tell, of course, what might come up with reference to 
the crop conditions. As I recall it, Mrs. Fraser was the one who 
worked the longest there so far in 1910. 

Q. Well, others worked up to within 8 or 10 hours of hers. 
A. Well, she is the one that worked longest ; but that includes, as 
I understand it, some double pay time. 

Q. Yes. She worked actual time, 111% hours, 112 hours. A. 
Yes, sir. Well, now then, this here, that was on the capping 
machines, where it is the longest hours. This year we have placed 
males there instead of females. We have corrected that mistake 
of the women being there. 

Q. You mean, the women were not fit to do that work ? A. No. 
I mean we can get men or boys over 18 years of age that will do 
that work, and w^e prefer to have them do it. 

Q. You pay them more money, don't you? A. I can't say as 
to that. 

Q. Twenty cents an hour, the men that do the capping this 
year? A. Twelve and one-half cents per hour, we pay the boys 
for doing that, up to the time the machines do it. 

Q. Mrs. Fraser was not doing capping? A. I understood she 
was putting caps on. 

Q. When did you put your capping machines in ? A. I under- 
stood Mrs. Fraser put on caps. 1 know she worked at machines. 
I saw her there the latter part of the season. I don't know how 
many hours she was working. 

Q. Let me ask you, frankly, isn't the trouble with these women, 
the reason they will work such long hours is because they want 
to make a decent wage a day ? A. Well, if you mean by that they 
want to earn what little they can during the season ? 

Q. If they work ten hours a day at ten cents an hour they 
would make $1 a day, which would be $6 a week; if they work 
60 hours a week they make $6, and they want to make $10 or $12 
a week, and to do that they have to work this overtime ? A. No, 



James P. Olxey. 



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sir. I think they would want to work just as much if the pay 
was more. 

Q. You think if they were paid fifteen cents an hour they would 
want to work just as much anyhow ? A. I think they would want 
to work more or less overtime. 

Q. Would they want to work 111 hours a week? A. I can't 
say that. 

Q. Mrs. Fraser works in your factory proper, not in your shed ? 
A. She did then. 

Q. In that factory the Labor Law applied ? A. Yes. 
Q. Don't you realize that was a breach of the Labor Law? 
A. I don't so understand it; she was over 21 years of age. 

Q. She was permitted to work as long as she pleased, accord- 
ing to law ? A. That is what we would contend. 
Q. That is your contention ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You have a labor supply sufiiciently large, you have all the 
people you want to work ; that isn't the reason you have to keep 
these people working eighteen or sixteen hours a day ? There are 
plenty of people to work here? A. We usually have enough 
people to run our machinery at present capacity. 

Q. And Mr. Hall, I understood, testified that there was plenty 
of labor, you had no shortness of labor at all ? A. As a rule we 
don't; once in a while. 

Q. You have no people living here that work in your factory 
that you brought here? A. No, sir. 

Q. And you have a very few, if any, foreigners? They are 
all native bom? A. Mostly. 

Q. Probably 98 per cent, of them? A. Mostly. 
Q. And they live right here in Rome ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. And the only thing that required you to make them work 
such long hours as they do work is because of the rush of the 
supply of vegetables ? A. For a comparatively short time ; yes, sir. 
Q. And you could put on extra people so that they would not, 
even in this comparatively short time, as you put it, have to work 
overtime, provided you have space enough to place the people? 
A. You mean more machinery? 

Q. Yes. A. I don't know whether we would get help enough 
to double up the capacity, if that is what you mean. 
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Q. I don't know whether you would have to double it or not. 
You know as a matter of fact that people have worked very long 
hours, and that people who work very long hours don't do as 
much work in the later hours as they do in the earlier ones i 
A. But the profits in the past, the margin of risk in the business, 
would not justify e(iuipping a factory for just a spurt period. 

Q. Well, how much is your output here of this particular fac- 
tory? A. 1 know the general figures; 1 don't remember amoiuiti 
now. 

Q. What is the pack of your entire company, of all your fac- 
tories that are operated ? A. Last year it was in the neighborhood 
of 450,000 or 460,000 cases. 

Q. How much money is that? A. Oh, an average of, say, $2 
a case. 

Q. Is that what you sell it for? A. Probably averages that, 
I guess. 

Q. How many cases, 400,000 ? That would be in the neighbor- 
hood of $000,000 ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What is your percentage of profit? A. I can't tell you, sir. 

Q. Well, then, how can you say that the business would not 
permit of the putting in of new machinery or sufficient machinerv 
so as not to run on eighteen hours time ? A. The general experi- 
ence now, that I found in the past taking one year with another. 

Q. That is just your general view of it? A. Yes, sir. We 
have added in that same connection, beyond the capital stock, 
there has been something like $70,000 or $80,000 added to the 
business besides. 

Bv Miss Dreier: 

Q. Isn't it true, in some of the factories, they use quite ordi- 
nary tables in sorting? They haven't got the machinerv the way 
the usual machinery is in the rush, but they have a table with a 
hole in it and the women stand around it and sort the peas into 
the hole? And it seems to me that might relieve the situation. 
It is not anything to have the table set up and the table could be 
so fixed it would even fold under and it would not take any room, 
and in the pea season and rush season, couldn't the sheds be used 
for that purpose? T menu would it mean the setting of ma- 
chinery? A. Certainly. 



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Q. Well, now, in this factory that had them, that was just a 
simple method, old fashioned but simple method of sorting peas, 
and it didn't involve any machinery, but just a table and some 
c-liairs and a pail or two, increasing the workers who sorted the 
peas. I understand a great many of the women who sort peas 
are working excessive hours. A. Well, we put them through a 
cleaning machine that is operated by power. 

Q. You sort them afterwards. They sit at sorting tables and 
sort them. That is where they work the long hours ? A. Yes. 

Q. I mean in some of the factories thev use the ordinarv tables, 
quite similar to this one — plain, ordinary table, and sort the 
peas from that table. Couldn't that be done without adding ma- 
chines or anything else, and you would increase the capacity of 
the workers? A. I don't know how far you could get help here 
for just three or four or fi\Q spurts, at times. 

Q. All these women that work at beans don't work in the pea 
season ? A. Most of them we give preference in the pea season. 

Q. You don't use 500 in the pea season ? A. We don't use 500 
in any part of the season, except outside in the picking of the 
beans. We don't use them in the factory proper, an\i;hing like 
that number. 

Q. AVell, are the majority of the women who are now in the 
sheds used inside the factory ? A. I think so. Isn't that so, Mr. 
Hall ? Most of them on the bean tables are those who were here 
in the pea time. 

!Mr. Hall: Yes. 

Q. In the sheds, I mean. The women in the sheds, do you use 
them also on the pea tables? A. Xo, sir. 

Q. Wouldn't you find they would be willing to come in the 
pea season and work on peas if you could provide machinery or 
tables necessary to sort peas ? A. Xot many of them, because they 
have children that they have to take with them to work. 

Q. Well, they are doing it now. A. They have the children 
with them ; they come and go as they please. 

Bv Mr. Elk us: 

■ 

Q. I asked you about the dividend on your stock of $24,000 ; 
you told me you could not remember wliat dividend was paid last 



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vear, the vear before or this year. When was a dividend last 
paid, that yon remember ? A. I beg vonr pardon ; yon asked me 
as to 1910. 

Q. Well, I asked you for 1911. A. I don't remember, sir. 

Q. What was paid in 1912 ? A. My recollection is it was 
$18,000. 

Q. $18,000 for the six months until you increased the capital 
stock ? A. That is my recollection ; I am not certain. 

Q. That would be at the rate of 150 per cent, per annum? A. 
On the capital stock ; but that can't be taken as a basis. 

Q. I understand ; but on the capital stock that would be it ? 
A. Yes. 

Q. T^ow, what was your dividend in 1909 ? A. I don't re- 
member. 

Q. Was your dividend in 1911 more or less than it was in 
1912 ? A. I don't know whether we declared a dividend in those 
vears. There has been more vears we did not declare a dividend 
than there were years when we did declare one. 

Q. AVhy did you place the limit of the children this year that 
you would employ at 10 years of age? A. For the reason of the 
disciission at Albany. The impression was carried that the can- 
ners were desirous of having the work of these children under 
10 years of age, and we were desirous to eliminate them from the 
work if it is a possible thing to do it. 

Q. Well, who fixed on 10 years of age? Was that an associa- 
tion action or individual action? A. I think it was a matter 
which was discussed in the association. I think the general senti- 
ment was that it was better to avoid working them if we could. 

Q. Some of the canners wanted to make it 14 years of age, the 
limit allowed by law of children working in other factories ? A. 
There w^ere very few, where they were not specially interested in 
the stringing of beans or could get plenty of help that did. I 
assume that is one of the reasons, largely, that caused them to 
feel that way. 

Q. Well, do you mean, Mr. Olney, that you are afraid if you 
made the age 14 that you would not get help enough? A. I am 
decidedly afraid of it ; ves, sir. 



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By Miss Dkeiee : 

Q. But you have no record at all of how many beans the chil- 
dren could turn out a day ? You have no record at all of that ? 
A. m. 

Q. So, you really haven't made a study of that? A. l^o; just 
a general impression. But the children that we lose at the be- 
ginning of the school year, and also from the fact that we foimd 
with all the stringers we had last year we lost about 40,000 pounds 
of beans that we could not handle in the factory, threw them out, 
that w^e didn't have stringers enough to string all the beans we had 
to string. 

Q. How much did that amount to in money loss, this 40,000 
pounds ? A. I could get down and figure ; my impression is that 
it is in the neighborhood of $1,000. 

Q. How much? A. $1,000. 

Q. Was that also due to any breaking or breakage of machinery ? 
Have you had to lose beans because of machinery breaking dow^i ? 
A. ]^o; I don't recall it. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Mr. Olney, as a matter of fact, of course, a grown person 
can turn out a great many more beans a day than a child ? As I 
understand from one of your people out here at the weighing 
station, a grown person could make $3 to $4 a day stringing beans, 
working ten or twelve hours ; is that correct ? A. I can't tell you, 
sir. 

Q. If it was anything like that, you could get plenty of grown 
people to do this work, couldn't you, if they could make $2 or $3 
a day, working ten and one-half hours a day ? There would be 
no difficulty in getting grown people and putting out children 
altogether, the same as you do in your factory proper? A. I 
can't tell what might happen. 

Q. Well, as a matter of fact you never tried it and don't know ? 
A. 'No; we never tried doing without profits. 

Q. Do you mean the same rate as you are paying now ? A. I 
only know we have been short of stringers at times to do our work. 

Q. As a matter of fact, you get all the w^omen and men you 
want to work in your factory proper at ten cents an hour ? A. 



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Almost always do, with the exception of some years, up to the 
extent of our present machinery. 

Q. So far as you need them 'i A. Yes. 

Q. And you therefore could get plenty of people who would 
work if they could make the same amount of money stringing 
beans, which is easier work, isn t it, than working in your factory ? 
A. Sure. 

Q. And therefore it must be, and if I am not right in my 
hypothesis, correct me, that the people who string beans get a 
great deal less than the people who work in your factory ? A. I 
can't tell. It depends upon their efficiency. 

Q. Js there any other reason for employing children, except 
for their cheapness i A. ^'ou mean children over 10 years of age ? 

Q. Over 10, yes, and under 14? A. Sure; it is the amount 
of work they do at the same price as their parents or other parents 
get ; they get the same price per pound. 

Q. Yes; but they can't do as much work per day, can they? 
A. ^'ot as a rule thev can't. 

Q. Well, you employ these women and children because they 
w^ork cheap ^ You are not carrying on your enterprise for philan- 
thropy or philanthropic reasons? A. We employ them because 
they do the work cheaper than men and do more of it ; we could 
not get men to do it. 

Q. Well, if you had boys over 14 years of age you could get 
plenty of those, couldn't you ? A. No, sir. 

Q. If you paid for it ? A. I don't know whether we could or 
not, sir; that is problematical. 

Q. You have never tried it, have vou ? A. Xo, sir. 

Q. Now, your excuse, as I understand it, for working in the 
factory such long hours as have been shown here, is because you 
have a great rush of material to work with ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, your beans all come from vour own farm; vou make 
no contracts for beans ? A. No, sir. 

Q. All the other vegetables you can, you contract for with dif- 
ferent farmers and others ? A. JVIostly. We grow some peas and 
some corn. 

Q. Now, have vou ever made a studv of the amount that vou 
can contract and take care of in your factory, or do you go right 



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ahead and make all the contracts that you can make at profitable 
rates and then trust to turning out the work as it comes in ? A. 
We don't do that here, sir. 

Q. Well, how many acres of land, if that is the way you figure 
it, that you contract for, is your factory capacity to turn out ? A. 
The gentleman who does the figuring is Mr. Brown. 

Q. The peas you contracted for in 1910 were 757% acres. Is 
that your capacity which you say you can contract for, that many 
in addition to what you have yourself, which is about 300 acres 
more ? Or w^hat is your capacity in acreage in your factory ? A. 
I can't tell you any further than that. 

Q. When you start to make contracts, this year, for instance, 
when you started out, did you have any definite idea in your mind 
of how many acres you were going to contract for ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How many ? A. I think about the same as was contracted ; 
we ought to be able to handle that with our machinery. 

Q. How did you figure that, so much for each machine, or so 
much for each person ? A. Well, it is so much for each capping 
machine ; I can't tell you. 

Q. Can anybody tell us ? A. Why, yes. 

Q. Who can ? A. Mr. Baily can tell ; I could not. 

Q. Where is Mr. Baily? A. He is here, or was here. 

Q. Well, let's have Mr. Baily, if he can tell us. Does he make 
the contracts ? A. No one can tell the exact amount. 

By Miss Dreier : 

Q. Do you allow, for instance, fifteen or eighty-five acres to 
one viner? Do you count that way? A. In the neighborhood 
of sixty-five or seventy-five, as I remember, to the viner. 

Q. Well, then, you have a cappino^ machine to meet the peas 
that come out of that viner? A. Yes; and the crop will vary. 
This year it was about two-thirds, less than two-thirds of what 
it was last year, I think, and if that happens to come in a 
rush, the bulk of it, — it was a short crop here, but at the same 
time we had a rush for a few days last year. In this same con- 
nection, notwithstanding the long hours last year, we lost in the 
neighborhood of 125 to 150 acres that we had to let go to seed. 
Last year, notwithstanding the long hours, we lost in the neigh- 



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borhood of 50 to 100 loads of peas. Here there was, or at this 
factory, something like 125 to 150 acres of peas, I think, we had 
to let go to seed. 

Bv Senator Wagner: 

ft/ 

Q. Wasn't that because you contracted for too much ? A. Not 
under ordinary conditions. 

Bv Mr. Eltci s : 

« 

Q. Because the growth was so enormous? A. No; it was the 
90 degree heat for about ten days. 

Q. It ripened the croj) ? A. Yes, sir ; so that we had 20.000 
cases of peas that were inferior quality, notwithstanding the 
quantity of raw material we had last year. If it was brought 
here we had to pay the farmer for it, and did pay him for it. 
And 125 to 150 acres of corn. We started a man away at about 
3 O'clock in the morning to stop the men coming in. 

Q. Does com ripen so you also have an over-supply on that ? 
A. No, sir; not to that extent. 

Q. Is there any otlier crop you have that requires these extra 
efforts ? A. Not very much ; sometimes beans and corn, but not 
so much. 

Q. You realize it would be a good thing if you could do away 
"with these women working over hours? A. Yes. 

Q. It is not a good thing for a woman to work 100 hours a 
week? A. It is not a good thing. We would be glad if we 
could regulate the whole businesis to ten hours a day and do busi- 
ness commercially. 

Q. You start on a common ground with everybody else, don't 
you? The probability is that vuu don't study out the question 
of how much acreage you can take care of? A. I don't think so. 
I think if we gauged it to simply work so that they would not 
work more than 60 hours for any one week, the hours would be 
so short the rest of the time that the business could not be carried 
on successfully in competition with the business in other States. 

Q. You know, of course, you always have these great rush 
spells every year, and you know just about when they occur. They 
may not occur the same dav, but tliev do occur every vear when 



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you have this intense heat that ripens the crop. A. It has been 
more intense, I think, the last two or three years. 

Q. I know, but it is about the same time, may vary to a slight 
extent, but it comes every year; there is not a year according to 
your books where in certain weeks in July you did not work 
seven days in the week. A. In former years it was not as in- 
tense as it has been the last two or three years. 

ft/ 

Q. Isn't that because you contracted for more acreage? A. I 
don't think so. 

Q. Have you not contracted for more acreage? A. Not that 
I am aware of. I can't say. I gave you the figures there. 

Q. The figures show you have. A. There is only two years. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. I wish I could find out whether you have any basis for your 
contracting for this acreage. I don't understand. A. Well, as 
you ask the question, I think it is in the neighborhood of sixty- 
five or seventy-five acres for the viner, and in some localities that 
could not be taken as a basis of some other localities where the 
yield of peas under ordinary conditions is a good deal more than 
it is with us. 

Q. You say Mr. Baily would know ? A. I think the chances 
are that he would. 

Bv Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Where is Mr. Baily? Does he make your contracts or do 
you make them ? A. He has char2:e of it ; ves, sir. 

c_> 'ft/ / 

Q. What part of the work do you attend to? A. I attend 
especially to the correspondence in connection with the sale of 
goods, and financial matters. 

By Miss Dreier: 

ft/ 

Q. In your opinion should there be any limitation of the hours 
of work for women in the canning industry ? A. No, I don't 
think there should be, because there is the unexpected condition 
for a week or a day that we can't foresee. I think the factories 
themselves, take any of them in the general run of experience, 
will find if they have got too large an acreage for the machinery, 
as seasons will run one way or the other. I think our own inter- 



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ests will dictate a cutting down of that acreage, because it is a 
disadvantage to us to work overtime, — that is too much over- 
time. 

Q. But some overtime would be to your advantage ? A. Xot if 
we could do it all. Our average is less than sixty hours per weel: 
during the entire canning season. If we could average all of 
that I would much prefer that, to keep it all equalized. 

Q. In squash, corn and pumpkin, you don't need to have over- 
time; wouldn't it be well to have a limitation on those crops, 
then? A. Well, there is need at times on the com. We can't tell 
wlien it will come. There are times when it will come on com, 
and the conditions may be such that the corn will change over 
night, and peas will change over night with wami conditions, if 
they are in the pod and in the vine nnd uncovered; not that they 
will spoil, but they will deteriorate in quality over night under 
unfavorable conditions. 

Q. Well, we have been in some factories where they haven't 
had to work overtime at all, even though they were not big 
factories, but they were paying some dividends. I don't know 
how much, but apparently it was satisfactory to the owners of 
the factory. They didn't have to have this fearful overtime on 
the part of the women. How do you explain that some factories 
have excessive overtime and other factories in which the owner 
can make a good living, aren't doing that? A. You mean on 

peas ? 

Q. Yes, on peas. A. I could not pass on that without know- 
ing the conditions under which they are operated. I can't imagine 
any pea factorv that is putting up peas and making a success of 
the business, without being obliged, at times, to work more than 
sixty hours a week. Did I understand you to say that ? 

Q. That is what I understand. A. Do you know from any 

personal observation? 

Q. Well, not over seventy-two hours, one. A. You don't know 
anv one that has not had to work over sixty hours. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Did you say that your average was less than sixty hours in 
the factory? A. I think that our average was less than sixty 
hours per Aveek last year for the entire canning season. 



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Q. Didn't you say, Mr. Brown, you though it was a little over 
sixtv hours? 

Mr. Brown: (Connected with the factory.) I said in one 
year only I thought the time was longer than it was last year. 
It was a fraction over sixty hours for the entire period. And 
taking the number of factories together of the State, something, 
I should say, in the neighborhood of thirty, — I can't say exactly 
— including the larger factories, I wish to emphasize that the 
average was 45 and a fraction hours for the season. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. That is from end to end ? A. From the beginning of their 
respective canning seasons, whatever that was. 

Q. There is no reason, is there, why there should be over 
work more than ten hours per day in the month of November ? A. 
Nothing in the way of canning. 

Q. What can there be that would require ten people to work 
overtime on the 14th day of November, last year, working thir- 
teen hours, women, what can there be ? A. I presume that was 
on the labeling. 

Q. What was it made them work thirteen hours on labeling? 
A. I presume that our customers were, as I know they were, 
urging us for deliveries faster than we could make them. 

Q. That happens in every other industry. These goods were 
canned long before November 13th. A. You understand me, I 
don't claim that it is necessary to have that exception apply to 
the labeling room. We had women who were willing to work, 
over 21 years of age, last year, and our customers were hurrying 
us for the shipments of goods, and we were desirous of getting 
them out and were forcing it. Any way, when we can get more 
help we can change that without any disadvantage, and that 
can be handled. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Did you ever look into the question whether you can pay 
your help more than you do to-day, or ten cents an hour ? A. I 
know it has been some years we have lost money, and it was all 
we could aflFord to pay. 






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Q. You have clone very well the last few j-ears. A. It has 
been better than it was 15 or 20 years ago. 

Q. And ten cents per honr is a rate you have had for a number 
of years? A. For some time; I don't remember how long. 

By Mr. Eekus : 

Q. For how many years ? A. Quite a number of j-ears ? 

Q. As far back as you can rememi)er ? A. I don't remember. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. So that, though the dividends increased, the wages remained 
the same? A. The dividends have not been regular, sir, they 
have varied, depending a good deal on conditions from one year 
to another, and some years there were dividends and quite a few 
vears there was none. 

Q. Last year you did better? A. We did better the last six 
years than we did for any period. 

Q. But the laborer has not been doing better? A. Yes, sir; 
we have been paying more than we did before. 

Q. What did you pay before? A. I presume 7 or 8 cents an 
hour; 7% cents. We paid men' less than we are paying now. 

Q. IsTow, about the employment of children. Why can't you 
dispense with the employment of children under 14 years of age? 
A. Because we could not do the business we are doing now if we 
did that. 

Q. .Why not ? A. Because we could not get the help to string 

the beans. 

Q. Did you ever try that ? A. Xo, sir ; we don't want to pay 
the money to try the experiment. 

Q. What would you have to pay ? Suppose you had a man to 
prevent any child coming in that was not 14 years of age, would 
you not get enough women and children over 14 so you would not 
have to employ these younger children ? A. Xo, sir. 

Q. Why do you say no, if you have never tried it? A. For 
the reason we haven't had, at times, enough help, employing them 
as young as 10 years of age. 

Q. When was that ? A. I can't tell you the day, sir : T know 

there has been times. 



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Q. Hasn't that been because you haven't had room enough to 
accommodate the people to work and use up the beans that you 
had on hand ? A. No, sir ; we have always had enough room. 

Q. Well, if you had room enough you could take more people 
and would not have to work until 10 o'clock at night. A. We have 
taken all the people we could get. We have never turned away 
people, w^omen, or children over 10. 

Q. Well, you can't take any more people than you have seats 
for, can you ? A. No. 

Q. Well, how many seats have you got ? A. We have seats for 
1,000 or 1,200 people at times. 

Q. Have you had 1,000 or 1,200 people there ? A. We have at 

times. 

Q. Of this 1,200, how many were w^omen or children over 14 ? 

A. I can't tell you. 

Q. Seventy-five per cent. ? A. I could not tell you. 

Q. Half of them ? A. I would not want to say. 

Q. You know your number is about what you have out there 
now, isn't it ? A. I presume so. 

Q. That is about 400 or 500 ? A. I should think there was 
more than 400. 

Q. 400 or 500. Of those 1,200 you can accommodate and have 
each board filled, one-half are women or children over 14, aren't 
they ? A. I should presume so. 

Q. Well then, why can't you at ordinary times use only children 
over 14 and women ? Then you would not have this question come 
up of employing children under 14 ? A. There is not enough of 
them, counsellor. 

Q. AVell, you say yourself you have had as many as 1,200 
people come here. A. They have come here under especially 
favorable conditions. 

Q. They don't get any more money, do they ? A. Not per 
pound. 

Q. What do you mean by especially favorable conditions ? They 
could work longer hours ? A. No, sir ; they would be some times 
beans that have got very large. | 

Q. They would make more money? A. They can get more 
beans. 



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Q. Does that attract them ? A. Sure. 

Q. Then the whole question comes back to the question that 
perhaps if you paid a little bit more you could get children over 
14. A. I don't know whether that would continue throughout the 
season or not; there have been spurts. 

Q. Whenever there is a circumstance that shows thev can make 
a little more money you haven't any trouble to get the people to 
come? A. There has been this difficulty. We have had trouble 
to find ourselves able to get enough. 

Q. When was that ? A. I can't tell you. 

Q. You have told me under special circumstances, such as beans 
being large, you could get 1,200 people. A. We have had them ; 
they have come here at times. 

Q. That is because they made a little more money without doing 
any more work? A. It might be, sir. 

Q. Isn't that so ? A. l^o doubt. 

(}. Haven't you said so yourself, that it was so ? A. No doubt. 
It might be the mills being closed. 

Q. But doesn't it come right back to this, if you paid a trilie 
more you could dispense with using these children under 14 years 
of age? A. Not and pay a living price, a competitive price for 
w^ork. 

Q. How much do you say you would have to pay to get rid of 
children under 14 ? A. I can't say. 

Q. How much do you pay now ? A. One cent a pound, mostly. 

Q. How much would they make if the beans were very large ? 
What would be the percentage more they would make? A. I 
can't tell you. The influx of these people sometimes will be in- 
fluenced by the mills being closed down. 

Q. Isn't it a fact, when the beans are large you pay less per 
pound? A. No, sir. 

Q. Do you pay one cent per pound w^hen the beans are very 
large ? A. Yes, sir ; I don't know any time we paid less. 

Q. Do you ever pay more than one cent per pound ? A. I don't 
remember it, unless there was one spurt when we had poor beans. 
I think one time we had some very poor beans and we paid a little 
more where they were rusty, in sorting them out. 



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Bv Senator Wagner : 

Q. Are there any other canners that pay more than one cent? 
A. I don't know. 

Q. You spoke of competitive prices? A. Yes. 

IJv Mr. Elkus: 

t. 

Q. How long have you been paying one cent a pound for string- 
ing beans ? A.I don't remember w^hether we ever paid less ; we 
may have formerly, but I don't remember. 

Q. Since you can remember, you have paid one cent a pound ? 
A. Yes. 

Q. In contracting for acreage, do you ever figure out whether 
you have enough labor supply, or more than w^ould be able to 
handle the normal crop without working them over sixty hours per 
week? A. I don't know that we have. I think ordinarily we 
could, with the machinery we have. 

By Senator Wagner : 

Q. But you haven't worked it out; you have simply assumed 
you had enough people to meet your machinery? A. Yes; from 
past experience. 

Bv Mr. Elkus : 

Q. You just guess at it? A. From past experience, we ordi- 
narily have help enough; sometimes we haven't. 

By Miss Dreier : 

Q. You always have to work overtime and always have had to 
employ children? A.- Well, are you talking about the sheds or 
factory ? 

Q. About both now. A. Well, why not talk about one at a 
time, if you can. 

Senator Wagner: The same principle applies to both. 

\W Mr. Elkus: 

t. 

Q. Your factory is inspected regularly by the State Labor 
I )epartment, isn't it ? A. Every year. 
Q. Once a year ? A. Yes. 






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Q. When was the factory inspected last year ^ A. J think it 
was in July. 

Q. Your sheds, of course, are not inspected, hecause they are 
not within the Factory Law^ A. We were not tunning beans 
then. 

Q. Have you any objection to your sheds being inspected 
regularly by the factory inspectors, even though it is claimed they 
are not under the Factory Law i A. We have no objection. He 
made a thorough study of it some years ago. 

Q. When you make contracts for planting peas with the farmers, 
do you instruct them when to plant the crop < A. No, sir. 

Q. He does that of his own account i A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You don't pay any attention to them at all ? A. We tried 
that once, but had such bad results we gave it up. 

Q. So, you let him do what he pleases as long as he delivers the 
vegetables '< A. As far as the sowing is concerned. 

Q. You have no seats for the children, have you, with backs, 
in the sheds ? A. Xot all of them ; part of them have. 

Q. Have backs to the seats ? A. They sit back next to the 
conveyor, some of them, I think. 

Q. They sit on boxes, don't they i A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And they sit on rows, or on a bench i A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Well, don't you think that is pretty hard on a child, even 
over ten years to sit on a hard bench for nine or ten hours a day, 
without a back l A. I think very few of them sit that length of 
time, sir. 

Q. Well, you heard them say they did sit there ? A. I heard 
them say so, but some of them were frightened. 

Q. You think they were mistaken^ A. 1 tliink thev were: 
yes, sir. And before we close, I would like to have the mother 
of one of these cliildreu come here, by permission of the chair- 
man. 

Senator Wa(;nkiv> — Certainly. 

Q. Isn't it a f{H-t, Mr. Ohw\\ tliat yon contract and you have 
an acreage every year which is more than your available labor 
supply can haudle? A. That may be. In the light of the ex- 
perience of the last two or three years, that is possible. That 



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is a matter which would receive consideration, in the light of 
these two or three years' experience, consideration as to whether 
we will want to cut down. I can't say so. 

By Senator W^agner: 

Q. Is there anything else you would like to bring out, Mr. 
Olney ? A. I wish also to say, in connection with this matter — 
1 can only speak in a general way, which can be verified if de- 
sired, by looking at these records — the Commission has referred 
to the long hours at times. It will be found that there are a good 
many days that the work is much less than ten hours per day, 
some days no work at all. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Mr. Olney, if a woman has to work for three weeks at a 
stretch for such long hours, it is bound to have an etfect on her 
general health, isn't it, even if after that she has a rest ? A. I 
never have heard any complaint of that kind from any of the 
employees. 

Q. W^ell, the physicians all say that is so, especially these 
women who are mothers and very often are mothers after thev 
do this work? A. Has there been three we^ks here where they 
worked excessive hours ? 

Q. Two weeks and a half and three weeks in a stretch < A. 
Which vear? 

Q. 1910 and 1911. A. Was that during the pea period? 

Q. I don't know. I think it was during the pea period. There 
are two stretches of three weeks of over sixty hours. A. Yes; 
that may be. 

Q. The point is, phj^sicians testify that a woman who works 
that way for three weeks steadily may injure herself perma- 
nently? A. But these women, very few of them, if any, are 
engaged in any other employment. 

Q. That doesn't make any difference; they hare home work. 
A. More or less of it. I don't know how much they do. Those 
that work in the factories don't have anv. 

Q. We take it, you don't want to injure any woman and do 
her a physical harm, even indirectly? A. !N"o, sir. 



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Q. And the pli}'sicians testify that a woman who works three 
davs as a matter of fact, overtime, may be permanently injured. 
A. As 1 said before, we never have heard of any ease where it 
happened. 

Q. We just want to put the facts before you so you understand 
the gravity of the situation. A. (Indicating card) This sign 
was up last fall, and observed, so far as we know : On and after 
^Monday, September 11, no children under 16 admitted during 
school hours. 

Q. What did you do to enforce that ? A. We came into the 
sheds and inquired. 

Q. Well, the children who go to school, when they come from 
school and when they are under age, under sixteen, may work? 
A. After school hours? 

Q. Yes. A. We don't bother about that. 

Q. You don't think' that is a good thing? A. Well, we don't 
know. There is very little done then. We figure to have the 
bean business pretty near over by that time. And this (indicat- 
ing) is a sign put up this year: Children imder 10 years of age 
not permitted to work on these premises. Inspectors will see 
that this rule is respected. 

Q. That was put up ten days ago ? A. Yes, sir. Women re- 
quested not to bring children to sheds under ten years of age. 

Q. How was it enforced? A. An inspector is instructed to 
enforce it, and evidently they try to enforce it as well as they 
can, but it is pretty hard to enforce it. 

Q. We found a number of children this morning under ten 
years of age. A. I don't know just how it happened. 

Bv Miss Dreier: 

Q. Are there many working this afternoon under ten years of 
age? A. I don't know what they represented to the inspector. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Don't you think it would be better to have a limit fixed by 
law and then require a certificate to enable a child to work, no 
matter what the age is, than to have an age fixed on by indi- 
viduals ? Have whatever age is fixed upon fixed by law and not 
by your company or somebody else's wish? A. If the children 



Mrs. Leroy Baker. 



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were being injured, yes; but T know no reason to think any of 
the children are being injured. 

Q. You are the only one who says they are not being injured. 
A. 1 don't know any of the operations of the health officer of 
this city sufficiently to learn of any case where any children have 
been injured working in the sheds. 

Q. Who is the health officer ? A. Doctor Mahadv. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. Let me call your attention to the fact that it may not injure 
a child to-day or to-morrow or next vear, but all the testimonv 
goes to show that the effect of labor upon a child is shown in 
later life; it may not show at once, but it does show later on. A. 
I don't think any work they do here injures them. 

Q. Wei], you are not a physician, I take it ? A. 'No. 

Q. Do you til ink the children are as well off here snipping on 
a box all day as they are playing? A. I don't think any of the 
younger ones snip all day. 

Q. Have you any way of knowing they don't ? You don't fix 
any limitation on the time they come in the morning or leave at 
night? A. No, except they will come to a point where the novelty 
is worn off and they will go home. They are coming and going 
all day, when there is work going on. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. You have heard these children say they w^orked until ten 
o'clock at night ? A. I heard the daughter of this woman say so, 
and I hope the Commission will hear what she has to say. 

Mrs. Leroy Baker, being duly sworn, testified as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Where do you live? A. 703 Broad street. 
Q. YoiU work in this factorv? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What do you do here? A. I am on the machines, beans. 
Q. What do you do on the machines? A. Filling the cans. 
Q. Aren't they filled by machinery? A. Well, if they don't 
weigh enough, we finish filling them. 
Q. You weigh each can? A. Yes, sir. 



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Q. Do you sit as you work, or stand up ? A. Why, part of the 
time we are standing, paii; of the time we sit down. 

Q. Do you have seats provided ? Do you stand up of your own 
desire, or sit down 'i A. We can't always sit down. 

Q. Do yojU have seats with backs, or without backs ? A. With- 
out backs. 

Q. Stools ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What time do you come to work in the morning ? A. When- 
ever the tables start. 

Q. What time is that, usually? A. You can't tell. 

Q. Don't you come here at some regular time ? A. Xo, sir. 

Q. Well, how do you know w^hen to come? A. They always 
tell us the nicrht before. 

Q. Well, what time did you come this morning ? A. Quarter 
of two this afternoon. 

Q. When did you work last before to-day ? A. Last Friday. 

Q. What time did you begin that day? A. I think it was 11 
o'clock. 

Q. What time did you stop last Friday? A. I think about 
half past six. 

Q. In the evening? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you got paid by the hour? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How much did you receive ? A. Twelve and one-half cents. 

Q. An hour? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you weigh each can of canned goods as it comes out 
and see whether it w^eighs a certain amoimt ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How much are those cans supposed to weigh ? A. I don't 
know; we have a can on the scales and it has to balance. 

Q. And then do you pass it on ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How many women are doing the same kind of work as you 
do ? A. I don't know ; I think there is twelve in there to-day ; I 
am not sure. 

Q. Did yO|U work here last year ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. The year before ? A. No, sir. 

Q. What did you do last year, the same thing? A. No, sir; 
I was on the tables. 

Q. You mean sorting out the peas? A. Beans. 

Q. How much did you get for that ? A. Ten cents an hour. 



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Q. How many hours did you work a day ? A. Not over ten, 
und usually not over eight or nine. 

Q. You nev^er did any overtime at all ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Never stayed here after o'clock in the evening ? A. If I 
<lid, we didn't commence before or 10 in the morning; 10 or 
11, or something like that. 

Q. Well, did anybody else of the women working sorting peas 
work longer hours than you did i A. Not that I know of. 

Q. They worked ten hours a dav at the most ? A. Yes. 

Q. You are sure of that? A. I am. 

(}. Well, then, you never got more than $6 a week, did you? 
A. No, sir. 

i}. That is the most you ever got ? A. I don't think there is 
a week I d rawed $6. 

Q. Is that so of every other women that is doing this work ? 
A. I don't know; I did not work on peas last year. 

(^. Now, Mrs. Baker, your little girl works here? A. My 
little girl was here this morning for the first time, and she hasn't 
strung any beans until to-day. 

Q. She hasn't ? A. No. 

Q. Was she here last year? A. She was here with mv mother 
and sister. 

Q. Was she here the vear before ? A. No. 

Q. Is she a truthful child ? A. She is s,upposed to be, but I 
think she got mixed when she said she stayed until 10 o'clock. 

Q. Ever know her to tell an untruth ? A. Yes ; I think so. 

Q. You accuse vour own child? A. Well, I think she srot 
mixed up. 

Q. AVho told you she got mixed up ? A. Some lady. 

Q. Did anybody working here in this room tell you about it? 
A. No. sir. 

Q. Anybody in this office? A. No, sir. 

Q. Did yo,u know you were going to testify here ? A. No, sir ; 
I did not. 

Q. Didn't you have any talk with any person in the employ 
of the Fort Stanwix Company about it ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Didn't they come to vou and tell vou that vour child had 



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made this statement and it was going to hurt the factory, and if 
you didn't correct it you would be discharged ? A. Xo, sir. 

Q. Xothing of that kind ^ A. Iso, sir. 

Q. Sure of that? A. Yes. 

Q. Who is the woman told you abqujt it ? A. They were talk- 
ing about it out in the factory. 

Q. Only you didn't come here until 2 o'clock ''( A. Yes ; 1 was 
here about 1 o'clock. 

Q. When was it you heard it ? A. I heard it this afternoon. 

Q. "What time did the child tell vou about it ? A. She told us 
home when she was home to dinner, but I didn't pay much atten- 
tion to what she said. 

Q. What did she tell vou ? A. I could not tell vou what she 
told me. 

Q. What did the child tell you ? Did she say to you that she 
had been here and told somebodv she had been here until 10 

ft. 

o'clock ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You never stayed until 10 o'clock yourself, last year, did 
you? A. Why, if I did, I came later in the morning. 

Q. But you did stay yourself until 10 ? A. I don't remember 
whether I did. 

Q. Do you remember taking the child home at 10 o'clock at 
night last year ? A. The child never came here at night after 
supper last year. The latest she ever stayed was 5 o'clock and 
wxnt home with my sister. 

Q. You have stayed here? A. Yes. 

Q. And you are sure you never took her home at 9 or 10 o'clock ? 
A. Yes. 

Bv Senator Waoxer: 

Q. Your husband is living? A. Yes. 

Q. And is he living in Rome' A. Tn "Rome, not here. 

Q. W^here does he work? A. In the metal works. 

Q. What does he get, do you know, about ? A. He is on piece- 
work. 

Q. What is his average earning? n week ? A. You can't just 
always tell ; depends on whether he loses any metal or not ; de- 
pends on how many rounds, what they call rounds, he runs. 



Mrs. Leroy Baker. 



Q. You know the average, don't you ? A. Xo. 



311 



Bv Mr. Elk us: 

Q. Have you any more children than this one child ? A. Yes ; 
one boy. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. You have to do this work in order to get along? A. Xot 
necessarily. 

Q. You don't have to do it ? A. Xot necessarily. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How much does your little girl make a day? A. She might 
make three cents if someone helped her ; she never works to make 
any money. 

Q. Then she would be better off if she didn't come here ? A. 
I don't know. I think I would just as soon have her here sitting 
out there as running around. 

Q. You w^ouldn't if a doctor told you it was bad for her ? A. 
We never had a doctor. 

Q. Have you never asked a doctor? A. No. 

Q. Here is Doctor Price, a sanitary officer, who w411 tell you, 
if you don't have to earn the money, to stay away, keep the child 
away and let her run around. You want to do, of course, what 
is the best thing for your child ? A. Well, I don't think it hurts 
them here, because they haven't got to w^ork; they come and go 
when they please. It isn't as if they had to stay there and work. 

Q. I say, you want to do the best thing for your child? A. 
Certainly. 

Q. And you are willing to take a doctor's word for it, rather 
than vour own, or would vou rather have your own opinion ? Did 
vour child ever make more than 3 cents a day last year ? A. Not 
unless we helped her. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. How much did your daughter do last year stringing beans ? 
How long did she work? A. She probably earned around, I 



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think she earned a dollar and a tow cents wlien 1 helped her. T 
always helped her. When 1 passed around the table I helped hur. 
She had a dollar and a half, something like that. 

Q. How lonii: did she work at anv one time, if von know that ? 
A. Xever worked to speak of; just strung a few beans and then 
stopped. 

Adjourned to August 14, 1912. 



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HEAKING OF THE NEW YORK STATE FACTORY INVESTIGA- 
TING COMMISSION, HELD AT THE PLANT OF H. C. HEMIN- 
WAY & CO., AUBURN, N. Y., AUGUST 14, 1912. 



Present : 

Hon. Egbert F. Wagner, Chairman. 
Hon. Edward D. Jackson". 
Hon. Cyrus W. Phillips. 
Miss Mary E. Dreier. 

Appearances: 

Hon. Abram I. Elkus, Counsel to the Commission. 
Bernard L. Shientag, Esq., Assistant counsel. 

Roy W. Hemingway, called as a w^itness, and being duly 
sworn, testified as follows: 

Direct examination bv Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Give your full name. A. Roy W. Hemingway. 

Q. Is this a firm or corporation i A. Corporation. 

Q. What officer are you of it-^ A. I am manager of this 
branch, and director. 

Q. Who is the president of it? A. H. C. Hemingway. 

Q. Where does he live? A. Syracuse. 

Q. What is his first name? A. Harvey C. . 

Q. Is that your father? A. Yes. 

Q. And who is the secretary and treasurer? A. The secretary 
is Harold X. White, whose residence is Syracuse; and the trea- 
surer is Mr. H. Q. Hemingway. 

Q. The same as the president ? A. Yes. 

Q. What is your capital stock? A. The capital is $180,000. 

Q. Common or preferred? K. X\\ one kind, all common. 

Q. How long have you been incorporated ? A. We have been 
incorporated since 1899. 

Q. Who are the directors, besides yourself and your father 

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and Mr. White? A. S. C Griffin, of Syracuse; and Dwiglit K. 
Hemingway, of Clyde, X. Y. That is all. 

Q. How many factories have you? A. Four plants; four 
factories. 

Q. Where are they? A. Main office is in Syracuse. 

Q. Have you a plant there? A. Yes; plant and office. 

Q. Where is the plant in Syracuse? A. 401 Sunset avenue. 

Q. What do you can there ? A. We pack there principally 
tomatoes and small fruits and apples, that is this }'ear. Last year 
we had packed, previous to this year, we had packed peas there, 
but we don't anv more. 

Q. And your other plant, other cannery is here? A. There is 
this one here and there is one in Lvons, N. Y., and one in Olvde, 
X. Y. 

Q. What do yon pack here ? A. We pack here rhubarb, peas 
and string beans, corn, squash, apples, red kidney beans and li^:jia 
beans. 

Q. Wien does vour season bcirin i A. Tlie season beains 
usuallv a])out the 1 r)th of June. 

Q. And ends when ( A. And ends, well, if we pack apples, 
which we don't do every year, if we pack apples, it will run to the 
first of December. 

Q. And are vour factories all idle bv the lirst of December ? 
A. Practically, so far as packing operations are concerned. The 
shipping goes on intermittently all season long. 

Q. And in this section in the factory of which you are manager, 
how many people do you employ in the factory proper, when run- 
ning ? A. In the factory proper on our busiest pack it will run 
150 to 200 people. 

Q. How many men and how many women ? A. Of that number 
I should say, to the best of my knowledge, without looking at the 
book now, I should think that seventv-five — of course, this will 
vary ; on some packs it will be more women and less men, but 
based on the heaviest pack, I should think seventy-five women and 
the balance men are employed. 

Q. And there is a regular standard of wages, isn't there, for 
men and women ^ A. Yes ; regular standard. 



EOY W. HEMIXCnVAY. 



315 



Q. And you pay ten cents an hour? A. We pay ten cents an 
hour for women and men fifteen to thirty cents an hour. 

Q. Now, you belong to the canners association? A. Yes; we 
are members of it. 

Q. Is that standard of wages fixed by the association ? A. It is 
not ; no, sir. 

Q. Is it by mutual understanding ? A. They are determined by 
the local conditions, principally, to my knowledge, I shoidd think. 
That is what I am going by here. 

Q. It is a fact, isn't it, that the canners all pay the same rate 
of wages, generally speaking ? [Members of the association all pay 
the same as vou do? A. It will varv. You will find it varies in 
different places, depending on local conditions. 

Q. Do you know any place where they pay the women more 
than ten cents ? A. Xo, I do not. 

(). How manv hours a dav do vou work in vour factorv 
proper t A. We w^ork — well, you are talking about men or 
women ? 

Q. About women, we w^ill take them first. A. The Avomen only 
Avork, when we are packing, ordinarily we run from ten to twelve 
hours a day. 

Q. Xever over twelve ? A. Sometimes over twelve hours a day. 

Q. How much over ( A. Why, it has run as high as fifteen 
hours, for some few places where they are working. 

Q. Did it ever run as high as eighteen hours? A. Eighteen 
hours ( Well, it might in a few cases. 

Q. For women? A. I don't recollect, of course, off-hand how 
that would be, without looking up the book. It would run, it might 
run that some times, yes ; but w^e try to keep the hours down and 
we send women home when they have worked what has been the 
legal limit of hours and use men. 

Q. What is the legal limit, as you understand it ? A. I under- 
stand that until the new law goes into effect, sixty hours a week, 
although you can work twelve hours a day, five days a week. 

Q. Well, you have had women working as high as sixteen hours 
a day and making more than sixty hours a Aveek, haven't you ? A. 
In some vears; ves. 



1 



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I 9 



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A 1 1. MITES OF Public Hearings. 



Q. Xow, how about tlie men ^ A. AVliy, men, we doii't use auy- 
body under 21, and it is — some years, of course, we don't have 
to work as long as others ; it depends on the amount of pack we are 
up against and the nature of the article, whether perishable and 
whether it will carry over night. 

Q. AVhat have you been working on this year with women ? A. 
We have done nothing but peas. 

Q. That is your time book ending July 13 ? A. Yes. 

Q. I call your attention to :SIys. Donnelly. Is that Sunday? 
A. Yes; one Sunday we worked. 

Q. Sixteen hours ^ A. Yes; there was some few^ women 
worked sixteen houre. 

Q. And Monday she worked sixteen and one-half hours? A. 
Quarter, I guess it is. 

Q. And Tuesday she worked nineteen and one-quarter hours? 
A. Yes. 

Q. And on Wednesday eight? A. Yes; eight and one-half. 

Q. Then she didn't work on Friday or Saturday or the fol- 
lowing Sundav? A. Xo. 

Q. You w^ould not let her work? A. Xo; we didn't Avant her 
because wo knew she had worked enough that week anvhow. And 
she made her full week of $0, so w^e used men in her place. 

Q, You see they don't make any more than $0 a week? A. 
Xo: I don't want them to make more than that; if thev can make 
it on piece-work it is all right. 

Q. That is working by the hour, is it? A. Yes; ten cents an 
hour. 

Q. Xow, the following week, beginning July 20th. A. We did 
not work Sunday. 

Q. Mrs. Donnelly, she w^orked Monday sixteen and three-quar- 
ter hours ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Tuesday sixteen and one-half hours? A. Yes. 

Q. Wednesday seventeen and one-half hours? A. Yes. 

i). Thursday nine hours ? A. Yes. 

Q. Sunday five hours. That made the sixty hours again ? A. 
Yes. That was Saturdav. 

Q. Is that Saturday five hours ? A. Yes. 

Q. That made sixty hours again the following week ? A. Yes, 
sir. 



Roy W. Hemingway. 



31' 



Q. You mean she didn't work at all on Friday, and onlv five 
hours on Saturday; you would not let her work^ A. Xo. We 
lay them off. They raised trouble the first year, two years ago, 
I think, I had trouble for working women more than the l^al 
rate of time; I think that was two years ago, and since that time 
I have tried to enforce this law, and it has caused lots of dis- 
satisfaction because they w^ant to w^ork. 

Q. I show you the time book of the week beginning July 
26th, taking Mrs. Donnelly again. She worked on Wednesday of 
that week for fifteen and one-half hours? A. Yes. 

Q. And Saturdav for eleven hours, makino- twentv-six and 
one-half hours? A. Yes. And we haven't done anything since 
then. 

Q. Where is your pay-roll for those weeks I have just asked 
you about ? A. We don't have any pay-roll ; we — 

Q. Cash book, I mean. A. We copy the envelopes right from 
that. 

Q. Have you got a cash book? A. Xo; I haven't any cash 
book. 

Q. Haven't you any record of the moneys you paid tliese 
people? A. Xo; w^e just make the envelopes right out from here 
and make out the envelopes. We used to copy this from the 
book and send it to the head office, but we thought that was going 
through too much red tape. 

Q. Would your ledger show the details or the totals ? A. X^o. 

Q. What does the ledger show? A. We don't keep a ledger 
here; we only keep sort of a cash book. 

Q. What does that show? A. That shows the total pay-roll 
for each week. 

Q. Xow, ]\Ir. Hemingway, isn't it a fact that these women do 
work on those days and you give them a separate check for it ? 
A. Why, what do you mean ? 

Q. On the days that they appear on this book as not working ? 
A. Well, now, in those few cases like that ? 

Q. Like Mrs. Donnelly. A. Like Mrs. Donnelly and three or 
four women like her are in certain positions w^here they work like 
that there, if they work these other days here we do give them 
extra cash. 



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Q. Where is the record of that :' A. It would be on the daily 
time sheets there. 

Q. Where is tliat sheets A. These daily time sheets would 
show that. 

Q. Where is the daily time sheet of July 13, 1912 ? A. I will 
get it. 

Q. Who keeps this time hook? A. It is checked over hy our 
timekeeper. 

Q. Who does the actual writing? A. That would depend; I 
will have to look at the writinsj and see whose writing it is. T 
think one person enters it. The date is the 13th? 

Q. Now, you get Wednesday first; that will be the 10th. A. 
Here is the lOth. 

(,). AVhere is .Mrs. Donnelly, Mr. Hemingway '. According to 
your time sheet which you have produced of July 10, 1912, which 
is Wednesday, Mrs. Donnelly, the same ^frs. Donnelly as is 
referred to in the time book on the sheet headed '* time for week 
ending July 13, 1912 '' began work at a quarter to 7 in the morn- 
ing of that day; is that right? A. ^'es. 

Q. And she finished at half past 2 the following morning? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Working nineteen and three-quarter hours ? A. Of course, 
>he had a half hour out for lunch and supper that we gave her. 

Q. Some time for luncli and supper? A. Yes; which we gave 
her. 

Q. Why d(X^s it appear in your time book. .Mr. Hemingway, 
that she only worked eight and one-half hours on Wednesday, 
when, as a matter of fact, your time sheet shows she worked 
nineteen and three-fourths hours ( A. That is for the reason of 
keeping our record as near as possible to the Sixty Hour Law. 

Q. I notice you enter in pencil under the column headed " re- 
marks '■ the words and figures " 11^4 out " that means in making 
up the time sheet you deduct that? A. We deduct that give it to 
her later. 

Q. That showed that you could only add eight and one-quarter 
hours to what she had already done in the preceding three days 
to make up sixty hours for tlie wee^k? A. That is the idea in 
this time book. 






KoY Vr. Hemingway. 



319 



» 



Q. Whose writing is this? A. Our timekeepers. 

Q. What is his name '( A. E. S. Marks. 

Q. Who piits down the remarks, he? A. Yes. 

Q. And whose writing is this ? A. Miss MdGinnis, our book- 
keeper. 

Q. When she finds these remarks '' III/4. out" she simply de- 
ducts it? A. Yes. 

Q. Now let's take the next day, Thursday. A. Yes; here is 
Thursday. 

Q. Of coui"se, this is all done, I suppose, this is a regulation 
of your factory i A. That is the way we have done it for a year 
or two. 

Q. By whose instructions, yours or the president and treasurer ? 
A. Under nobody's instructions outside of my own, so far as this 
is concerned, because I am in charge here and keep the records. 

Q. You produced the time sheet for the date of July 10, 1912, 
and I find the same Mrs. Donnelly, — that is the same one, is it ? 
A. Yes, sixteen hours. 

Q. And she began that morning at a quarter of 7 and stopped 
at 12 o'clock, and she began at 1 o'clock — that was her lunch 
hour? A. Yes; she had an hour out. 

Q. You didn't pay for that hour? A. Xo. 

Q. Then she stopped at 6 and started at 7 ; you didn't pay for 
that hour ( A. Xo. 

Q. She stopped at a quarter of one in the morning : A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. And she worked sixteen hours that day ? A. Yes. 

Q. Will you show where that sixteen hours are in the time 
book ? A. We took it from the time sheet. 

Q. Will you show it on the time book which you have pro- 
duced for July 13, 1912? Is it on this regular page? A. It is 
not on this page here. 

Q. And it does not appear in the pay-roll that makes up the 
sixty hours ? A. Xo. 

Q. Is it in any other part of the book ? A. I have it in some 
other part of the book. Here it is (indicating). 

Q. In the back part of the book^ you keep a private record, I 
suppose ? A. This is — strictly speaking, this is anything over 
sixtv hours, rii>ht hero. 



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Q. And this is the list of all the women and all the work over 
sixty hours? A. For this Aveek; ves. 

Q. And this is the amount they received over $G a week? A. 
Yes. 

(^. And this correctly shows the number of hours that thev 
worked over sixty hours per week? A. Yes. 

Q. Take JVIrs. Donnelly on the Wednesday she worked — that 
is the 10th, isn't it ? A. Yes, that would be the 10th. 

Q. She worked eleven and one-half hours which does not ap- 
pear in the other part of the book ; on Thursday she worked six- 
teen hours, Avhereas tlie time-l)Ook proper shows she didn't work 
at all ; and on Friday she worked fifteen and one-half hours, al- 
though the time-book shows she didn't work at all; and on Sat- 
urday she worked seventeen hours? A. Yes. 

Q. So that week she worked llO-Vj hours? A. Yes. 

(J. And that is not counting for supper and dinner hours, 
either, that she took out and didn't i»et paid for? A. On one 
day she did ; she got the time given her. 

Q. On July 11th she took her dinuor au«l supper, one hour, 
at her own time? A. Yes. 

^Iv. Elkus : T will put this time sheet in evidence. 

(Said sheet was marked Exhibit Xo. 1 of this date, H. C. 
Hemingway tV Co., and is as follows: 

'' H. C. HEMINGWAY k CO., Incorporated. 
Auburn, !N;. Y. ; Clyde, X. Y. ; Syracuse, X. Y. : Lyons, X. Y. 

Dated, July 11, 1012. 

Daihj Time Sheet. 

Nanif^. A. M. P. M. Night. Number 

Thursday. Start. Stop. Start. Stop. Start. Stop. hours. 

Bowers, Lizzie 91 12 1 7 2 143 

Galena, Anna 1 G 7 112 92 

Carmaeelli, Ant 6 12 1 (5 .. .. 11&33 

Carlo, Mary 7 12 1 6 7 I2 162 3 out 

Carrone, Marv 9 12 1 G 7 2 15 

Charles, Mary 

Check, Annie 7 12 1 G 7 112 143 

Cognoski, Lelly 63 12 1 6 . . . . lOi 

Cosendee, Frances 73 12 1 6 7 112 14 

Domenick, Ant 8 12 1 6 . . . . 10 

Donelly, Mrs 63 12 1 6 7 123 16 

Donike, Marv 63 12 1 6 . . . . lOi 



1 



Name. 
Thureday, 

Ely, Maude 

Engina, Rosy 

Farby, Mary 

Fehcall, Emma 

Fine, Mrs 

Funich, Mary 

Gastillori, Rosette 

Hansen, Mrs 

Holmes, Mrs 

Jakennte, Annie 

Keizpulu, Nellie 

Kutash, Mary 

Laraube, Anna 

Maina, Jennie 

Marr, Maude 

Massie, Josy 

Murphy, Angeline 

Mengens, Jashte 

Maravine, Ant 

Netto, Carmella 

Ottman, Anna 

Parell, Mary 

Paternit, Josephine .... 

Process ine, Mary 

R^elta, Tarda 

Rice, Mary 

Ritzugal, Angeltine 

Rich, Mrs 

Risa, Lena 

Roach, Annie 

Rutska, Josea 

Sarah, Mary 

Secora, M 

Sugden, Rose 

Scanlon, Mrs 

Silva, Carmella 

Spino, Mrs 

Stone, Mary 

Syracuse, Santa 

Totze, Mary 

Walter, Racheal 

Yoffie, Lea 

Yarmella, Lenora 



Roy W. Hemiivgway. 

A. M. p. M. 

Start. Stop. Start. Stop. 

7 12 1 6 

63 12 1 6 

7 12 1 6 

7 12 1 6 



321 



73 
63 
83 
7 

• • 

63 

63 

7 

t • 

7 
7 
7 
63 

7 
7 
7 
71 



6 

7 
7 
7 
63 

• • 

63 
71 

• • 

7 
72 

• • 

7 

63 

63 

63 

7 

7 

63 



12 
12 
12 
12 

• • 

12 
12 
12 

• • 

12 
12 
12 
12 
12 
12 
12 
12 



12 
12 
12 
12 
12 

• • 

12 
12 

• • 

12 
12 

• « 

12 
12 
12 
12 
12 
12 
12 



6 
6 
6 
6 

• • 

6 
6 
6 

• • 

6 
6 
6 
6 
6 
6 
6 
6 

• • 

6 

6 
6 
6 
6 
6 
6 
6 
6 

6 
6 

» • 

6 
6 
6 
6 
6 
6 
6 



Night. 
Start. Stop. 



7 
7 

» • 

7 
7 
71 



7 
7 
7 
7 
7 
7 
7 



7 

7 
7 



12 

22 

• • 

112 
112 
112 



122 



112 
13 

112 

112 
13 
21 

112 



22 



12 



21 



112 
112 
112 

112 



Number 
hours. 

10 

IQi 

162 

172 

• • 

133 
143 
122 
10 

• • 

101 

153 

9 

• • 

142 
163 
122 
143 
163 

171 

142 

93 

• • 

122 

11 

122 
10 
10 
101 

5 
101 

93 

• • 

10 
163 

• • 

10 

101 

143 

143 

142 

102 

143 



By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. On July 12th, according to this time sheet, Mrs. Donnelly 
began at a quarter to seven in the morning and stopped at a 
Vol. Ill — 11 



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Minutes of I^ublic HEARiMis. 



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quarter past ten in the evening, working a total of lo^^ honrs? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Have you got July 13, Mrs. Donnelly? She began that 
morning, according to your time sheet, at a quarter to seven, 
stopped at twelve, began at one in the afternoon and stopped work 
at six, stopped at six and began at seven and worked until a 
quarter of tw^o the following morning; seventeen hours during 
the day, actual work, taking out at her own expense one hour for 
lunch and one hour for supper^ A. Yes. 

Mr. Elkus: I offer this time sheet of Julv 13th in evidence. 

(Said sheet was marked Exhibit Xo. 2 of this date, H. C. 
Hemingw^ay k Co., incorporate<l, and reads as follows) : 

H. C. HEMINGWAY & CO., INCOKPORATED. 
Auburn, K Y. ; Clyde, X. Y. ; Syracuse, X. Y. ; Lyons, X. Y. 



Date, Julv 13, 

Name. 
Saturday. 
Barteloni, Mary . . 
Bowers, Lizzie .... 

Caleiui, Annie 

Oarmueelli, Ant. . . 

Carlo, Mary 

Carrone, Mary .... 

Check, Annie 

Cognoski, Telly... 
Cosendee, Frances . . 
Dominick, Ant. . . . 

Donelly, Mrs 

Dencki, Marv 

Ely, Maud 

Engina, Rosy 

Farby, Mary 

Felina, Anna 

Finn, Mrs 

Funich, Mary 

Gastillori, Rosette. 

Hansen, Mrs 

Holmes, Mrs 

Keppnlu, Nellie. . . 
Kutash, Mary 



DaUij Time Sheet. 
1012. 

A. M. P. M. Night. 

Start. Stop. Start. Stop. Start. Stop. 



7 12 

12 

7 12 

G 12 



7 

7 



12 
12 



6-J 12 

7 12 

7 12 

63 12 

63 12 

7 12 

63 12 



7 
7 



12 
12 



72 12 
71 12 
63 12 



7 
7 



12 
12 



63 12 
71 12 



6 
6 

6 

43 



7 
63 



12 
13 



Total 
No. hours. 
162 

15 

10 
93 



Remarks. 



C 

6 

6 

6 

6 

6 

6 

6 

6 

6 

6 

6 

6 

6 

6 

6 

6 

6 



21 



7 13 
7 13 
63 10 



7 
7 
73 
71 

7 
72 



13 

13 

21 

12 
12 
13 



171 
10 
101 
10 

16'5 

17 
132 
10 
101 
163 
163 
16 
16 
163 
162 
10 
101 
93 



136 Cottage St. 
31 Wallis Ave. 
21 Wallis Ave. 
11 5 Kelsey St. 
120 Kel8<»y St. 
43 Union St. 
53 Van Andrew 
100 Kelsey St. 

45 Grant St. 

16 14 Coon St. 

1 Myrtle Ave. 

114 Wallis Ave. 
164 Clark St. 



130 Cottage St. 
38% Cottage St. 



Roy W. IlE^nxGWAY. 



323 



Name. 


A. 


M. 


P. M. 


Night. 


Total 


Saturday. 


Start. 


Stop. Start. Stop. 


Start 


. Stop. 


No. hours. Remarks. 


Laraube, Annie .... 


7 


12 . 








5 


125 Kelsey St. 
109 Orchard St. 


Mangella, Laura. . . 


7 


12 


1 6 


• • 


• • 


10 


Marr, Maud 


7 


12 


1 6 


7 


21 


171 


133 Kelsey St. 


Massie, Josie 


71 


12 


1 6 


7 


13 


162 




Murphy, Angeline . 


7 


12 


U 6 


7 


21 


17 


63 S. Division St! 


May ens, Jashte.... 


63 


12 


1 6 


7 


12 


163 


1 Lafayette. 


Naravine, Ant 


7 


12 


1 6 


7 


13 


163 


38% S. Division 
Street. 


Nette, Garmellia. ... 


7 


12 


1 6 




(10) 




5 Kelsey St. 


Ottman, Anna 


• • 


• • 


1 6 


7 


13 


113 


16 Sheldon Ave. 


Parell, Mary 


7 


12 


1 6 


7 


13 


163 


61 West St. 


Procossine, Mary.. 


7 


12 


I 6 


63 


21 


172 




Regelta, Tarda 


6 


12 


I 43 


• • 


• • 


93 


6 Underwood St. 


Rice, Mary 


63 


12 : 


L 6 


63 


13 


171 




Ritzugal, Angeltine 


7 


12 ] 


L 6 


• • 


• • 


10 


3 Underwood St. 


Rich, Mrs 


• • 


• • • < 


» • « 


• • 


■ • 


• • 


31 Case Ave. 


Rosa, Lena 


• • 


• • • • 


• • 


• • 


• • 


• • 


26 Parker St. 


Roach, Annie 


• a 


• • • • 












Rutska, Josea 


7 


12 1 


6 


7 


13 


163 


116 Cottage St. 


Sarah, Mary 


63 


12 1 


6 


63 


12 


17 


141 Clark St. 


Secora, M 


• • 


• • • • 


• • 


• • 


• • 


• • 


25 S. Division St. 


Snyder, Rose 


7 


12 1 


[ 6 


• • 


• • 


10 




Scan Ion, Mrs 


72 


12 1 


6 


7 


13 


161 




Silva, Carmella 


7 


12 ] 


6 


, ^ 


• • 


10 


1 Wallis Ave. 


Spino, Mrs 


7 


12 1 


6 


7 


13 


163 


21 West St. 


Stone, Mary 


68 


12 1 


6 


• • 


• • 


101 


20% Barber. 


Syracuse, Santa... 


63 


12 1 


6 


7 


12 


163 


13% Lafayette. 


1 otzi, Mary 


7 


12 1 


6 


7 


13 


'163 


144 Kelsey St. 


Walter, Racheal. . . 


7 


12 1 


6 


7 


13 


163 


20 s. Division St. 


Yoffie, Lea 


7 


12 1 


4 


7 


112 


122 


191 Clark St. 


Zamelia, Lenora... 


63 


12 1 


6 


7 


102 


133 


28 Wallis Ave. 


Garboni, Mary 


• • 


* . . . 


• • 


7 


13 


63 


69 West St. 



By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. These time sheets you have produced, Mr. Hemingway, of 
July 10th, 11th and 12th and 13th, those sheets show the actual 
number of hours of each one of the employees named therein who 
worked ? A. Yes ; that is all there is to it ; that is all. 

Q. And the time-book proper which you have shown me is an 
incorrect book ? A. The time-book proper shows they only worked 
sixty hours, and on that page shows the overtime. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Purposely so arranged, wasn't it ? A. It was, yes ; it was. 
Q.^ To show an apparent observance of the law; is that right? 
A. That is the idea. 



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Minutes of Public Hearings. 



By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. And in the back of the book jou mark the headings of the 
over sixty-hour limit women? A. Yes. 

Q. That is to say, you put a mark on each one showing how 
much more than 60 hours each has worked ? A. Yes. 

Q. What is the idea of your keeping those incorrect books? 
A. The object, strictly speaking, I don't know as I can tell you 
just what my cbject was. Of course, the overtime of most of 
the women didn't amount to very much over sixty hours year 
after year ; now this year, what little overtime in a week a woman 
would work doesn't run, in most cases, over two or three dollars. 

Q. Three dollars, meaning thirty hours? A. Yes; ten cents 
an hour; thirty hours for the whole week. 

Q. Well, now, here is a woman worked fifty hours in the whole 
week, $5.03, over sixty, that would be 110 hours. That is Lizzie 
Bowers? A. Yes. 

Q. And Mary Marony worked forty-seven; that would be 107 
hours? A. Yes. 

Q. Here is one worked 59 hours and forty-eight minutes ? A. 
That is Mrs. Donnelly. 

Q. Here is Mrs. Mary Farby, worked forty-seven and one-half 
hours over sixty; that would be 107 hours? A. Yes. 

Q. Here is Mrs. Annie Felicy, fifty-five hours over (lie sixty; 
that would be 115 hours? A. Yes. 

Q. Here is Rosette Gustalhume, forty-one hours over the sixty ; 
that would be 101 ? A. Yes. 

Q. Here is one Mary Procossine, worked forty-nine hours over 
sixty? A. Yes; I should say there was ten or twelve women 
that made overtime that amounts to twenty or thirty hours a 
week or over that. 

Q. That is, practically every woman in your place worked over- 
time, didn't she, over sixty hours? A. Why, out of seventy-five 
women, you can see; I could not say. 

Q. How many women and children do you employ in your 
shed ? A. We don't employ any children in the shed. 

Q. None at all ? A. No. 

Q. For snipping beans? A. No; we don't snip them here. 

Q. Where do you snip them? A. On the farm. We have 



Roy W. HfiMiNGiWAY. 



325 



women and children there on the farm from twelve years old, 
picking the beans, and they do the snipping right there on the 
barn floor where it is clean. 

Q. What do you do in the sheds ? A. We don't have anything 
in the sheds for children to do. We have men and women doing 
the husking of com. 

Q. When you do the snipping of beans on the farm, what do 
you pay ? A. This is a new experience for me because yesterday 
was the first time we ever packed a bean around this factory, and 
we are going to pay the standard wages over the State. Most 
pickers I am told pay one cent a pound for picking and a cent 
to a cent and a half, if they have to get them snipped. That 
seems to be the standard wage all over the State and that is what 
we intend to do, if we can get the help to do it. 

Q. Are these your own farms? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you contract for the crop on farms? A. On beans, 
you mean? 

Q. Yes. A. We own that farm and put our beans in ourselves. 
Q. Do you contract for the vegetables grown on other farms ? 
A. Yes; the peas. 

Q. What system have you for that ? A. Peas and com are con- 
tracted beginning the first day of January. 

Q. What do you contract for? A. All we can get to supply 
our sales. 

Q. You don't pay any attention to the number of people you 
employ; you just take all you think you can sell and manage 
to get through the work ? A. The average packer anywhere over 
the United States will never get more acreage than he can get 
rid of. 

Q. Anyway, you contract for all you can get? A. That is 
about it; yes. 

Q. You have no trouble in getting labor, have you ? A. Well, now, 
generally speaking, no trouble. I don't know what trouble I am 
.2:oing to have on picking these beans. T have only thirty acres, 
and that doesn't amount to much compared to what some packers 
have. 

Q. In the factory proper? A. We can get all the men we 
want ; we don't have to bring in any, unless they come in without 
our knowledge. 



:f 



326 



Mix^uTEs OF Public Hearings. 



Q. Don't you know you are breaking the law by keeping a time- 
book like that ? A. I admit it was an infringement of the strict 
meaning of that law, that intention of the law. 

Q. Wasn't it meant to fool the factory inspector ? A. Yes, it 
was. There has not been a factory inspector around to look at 
the books, as I recollect, since 1910. 

Q. In 1910 you kept it this way, didn't you? A. In 1911 and 
1912 I did, but in 1910 I am not certain; 1910 I didn't keep 
them that way. 

Q. In 1911 you kept them that way? A. In 1911 and 1912 
is all ; I think 1910 is all in here, isn't it ? I won't be sure about 
1910. 

Q. In 1910 it appears that you put — here is 61 hours. Yes, 
they all worked more than 60 hours in the rush time ? A. Well' 
perhaps for ten days or two weeks. 

Q.^ For your own information, section 77 of the Labor Law 
requires where a woman is employed you must keep a time-book 
which must properly keep the hours of labor, and you must exhibit 
such book as herein provided. Now, you may have your permit 
revoked for keeping this false time-book. 

0. Well, now, Mr. Hemingway, is there any necessity for these 
women working overtime at all ? A. Well, the facts of the case 
in my experience suggest that it is. We are packing a perishable 
line of goods and to make prime quality and get salable stuff we 
ought to pack it as near as possible the same day it is brought in 
here, or the day after. 

Q. Well, you apparently are very frank with us, and we ap- 
preciate it. Now, isn't it a fact that some means can be devised, 
by employing more people to do the work instead of keeping these 
women working eighteen and nineteen hours a day, you can avoid 
this overtime? A. The difficulty there is right here: You can't 
go in a strange industry where a factory isn't running steady for 
over, perhaps, two or three weeks rush, you can't get help organ- 
ized into a day and night shift : at least my experience has been 
that. T tried it, honest, one year, in 1910, and I could not get 
a night shift, especially of women, capable of doing the work, 
that would come in here for two weeks and give them what night 
work T had. There is no attraction working nights, anyhow. 
Q. You could if you paid them more than ten cents an hour. 



UnY W. TIemtxoway. 



327 



Isn't the whole trouble this: A woman who works only sixty 
hours a week can only make $6 and these women naturally want 
to make more money, and you permit them to work seventeen, 
eighteen, nineteen and twenty liours a day, and you urge them to 
do it, I suppose? Yon have to do it? A. We don't have to urge 
them ; they want to earn the money. 

Q. They want to make $1.60 or $1.90 a day and they work 
up to the utmost limit of their ability. Xow, if you paid more, and 
all, practically, would have to pay the same wage, wouldn't yon 
be able to get women who would work sixty hours a week? A. 
Well, you may if you go to the expense of bringing them in from 
outside if you could not find them in your own town. I have 
never tried to pay more than ten cents an hour for women help. 
I never tried to get them by offering them more than ten cents 
an hour, and until that was tried I could not tell vou : I would 
not want to say just whether I would be able to do it, or not. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. I suppose if you offered twenty cents an hour for night nhift 
you would not have any day workers, would you ? A. They would 
probably all want to work nights, and then when the night's work 
was over they would want to come back and Avork davtiraes. You 
have got to treat them all alike. You see. If we are working — 

By Mr. Elk us: 

Q. This overtime is for how long? A. Perhaps ton days to two 
weeks. 

Q. That is all ? A. That is all it has ever been here ; that is 
in the height of the pea pack. I think I am within the facts of 
the case when I say ten days to two weeks. 

Q. You have corn ? A. It doesn't require that on corn. You 
see we can husk that bv machinerv. 

Q. And you can keep that until vou are readv for it? A. I 
tried to run it up as fast as we can; and we can usuallv count 
on corn, where we can't on peas. 

Q. Last year on corn, September 19th it was, you had women 
working fourteen and one-half hours a day; there are women 
working thirteen hours, other w^omen working twelve hours. A. 
That was in September ? 



I 't 



I 



I 



M 



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'ii 

I' ■« 

It - J 

Ii 



328 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. Ves. A. For liow many days ( 

Q. Seven days or a little more; probably ten days on corn, and 
apparently quite a few people; and about three weeks on peas 
and this IS taken from the book that was not kept correctly, a! 
Well, that is for this year or last year ? 

Q. For last year. A. I would i.ot say it was for three weeks 
unless — without looking it up. 

Q. What we are after is to see whether these conditions 
cannot be changed without harming the manufacturer, and we 
would like to get your views about it. Isn't it possible ? A. Well 
my views would only be from what experience I have had here 
in this one plant. 

By Senator Wagneb: 

Q. Mr. Hemingway, can, as a matter of fact, the manufacturers 
pay more wages ? A. They can't pay more wages unless they raise 
the price of canned goods ; that is all. 

Q. Well, aren't the profits rather large now in all the canning 
industries in this State? A. A^o, sir, not all; no, sir. I won't 
contradict that some of them are making good profits. 

Q. I mean they are making profits enough so as to be able to 
leave enough, on the present price of goods on the market, to pay 
higher wages ? A. On some lines of goods they could, and some 
they could not. On corn the margin is so small on what you get 
for it and what it costs to pack we could not change conditions 
very well. 

Q. You don't need many women for that, do you ? A. We use 
a lot of women on corn, but they never work over ten hours a 
day; and that is all piece work. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Itavejustshown where they did work longer hours? A. I 
was speaking more about the husking in there ; a few inside would 
work more than ten hours a day. 

Q. No woman works long hours out of preference ; she works 
to make the money. A. That is what we are all working for. 

Q. If she could make the same money in ten hours she would 
not work eighteen or nineteen ? A. No. 

Q. I don't see how a woman can work overtime from 6 in the 
morning until 2 the next morning. 



n 



Roy W. Hemixgway. 



829 



Q. Isn't it a fact, Mr. Hemingway, that you could put in com- 
huskers and handle the husking of the com and have these women 
inside and use them there, so as to prevent the overtime in the 
factory ? A. Well, to handle all the acreage we got here with a 
full crop would take — I don't know how many machines. We 



got SIX. 



By Senator Wagnee: 

Q. You have six corn buskers ? A. Yes. That could be done, I 
don't deny that, but the expense incident to that would be too 
large, looking at it off-hand now, without looking at the figures 
exactly. 

By Miss Deeier : 

Q. What do you consider good profits ? You said before that 
some men had good profits ? A. I mean some packers have good 
profits. 

Q. What do you mean, good profits ? 10 or 20 or 100 per cent. ? 
A. Oh, no ; this industry is a hard one to work in because vou have 
to do it in a rush, and doing work in a j-ush like that it ought to 
pay more than some industries where you keep steady the year 
around and spread your output over the entire period. 

Q. But here you do it in four months? A. In about four or 
five months. I was going to say, I should think if a packer made 
10 per cent, averaging his whole product up, he ought to be en- 
titled to that at least, because it is a hard business. 
By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Why do you employ children at all ? Why do you attempt 
to employ them, even over 12 years of age? A. The only reason 
18,^ we can't get women help enough in the town here unless we 
bring them m from outside. 

Q. Have you ever tried it? A. I told you yesterdav was the 
hvst time I ever picked beans. In one of our other factories we 
have got 150 Italians in from Syracuse and Eochester. They are 
housed m nice quarters. I suppose you are going there and you 
will see them probably. They are men, women and children, but 
the children predominate, and they are all around 15, I should 
think, these children, and we figure it is vacation work that brin^ 
in some money to these families and it is not hard on children. 



If':' 



. * 



4 
i: 

■ : ; 



!t< 



i'.. 



■;. ■ ' 






It ^ 



330 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. Have you ever had any expert opinion as to whether it was 
hard on children ? A. No; because I have never had any children 
that young. 

Q. How about children 6 and 7 ? A. I would not have them 
around anyhow; tliey are to much bother, and I just won't have 
them. 

Q. How about children 10 or 12? A. Children over 12 up, I 
would say. Of course, it is hard, sometimes, to ascertain the exact 
age, but you can tell pretty near by the size. 

Q. You would not employ a child under 12? A. No; I don't 
intend to. 

Q. You think it is dangerous and bad for the children ? A. It 
might not be dangerous, but it is so much bother to voursclf to 
have them. 

Q. There is no business reason why you should not use chil- 
dren over 12, as you see it? A. Not at healthy out-door employ- 
ment. 

Q. Why could not you limit it to 14? You would get plenty, 
wouldn't you ? A. You see children 14, they are just as big. 

Q. I am not telling whether they look as big or not ; if you made 
it a rule ? A. You have got to have a dividing line, of course, be- 
tween 12 and U. I would rather have the 14. We don't take the 
12-year-olds because we want them in preference to the 14-year- 
olds. 

Q. What was the dividend you paid last year? A. Seven 
per cent. 

Q. What was this year's dividend ? A. This year isn't over yet. 

Q. Is that for all the plants, or just this plant? A. That is 
altogether; the business is all run together. 

Q. That is besides paying salaries to all of you, I suppose? A. 
That is above the entire expense of running the business. Of 
course, these figures more in detail — 

By Assemblyman Phillips : 

Q. (Interrupting) AVould you be able to get more women if you 
paid more ? Would you get more women in place of children ? 
A. Nothing is impossible. You could if you went to the expense. 
Nothing is impossible. But the proposition is to pack your goods 






KoY W. Hemingway. 



331 



as good as you can and as cheap as you can ; at the price they are 
sold you can't do otherwise, you can't aim to do otherwise. 

Q. Does the retailer get much profit in selling canned goods? 
Is there a large intermediate middleman's profit there ? A. It all 
depends on conditions. Now, some firms go through middlemen 
more than we do, and some less. But generally speaking, they 
make a good fair — • not on a can of peas, because they go through 
two hands, but generally speaking, canned goods like everything 
else goes through the jobber. 

Q. What do you sell a can for, the price that you get per can? 
A. Well — 

Q. Take some particular brand there. A. You take corn, for 
instance, we sell our best corn at about $1 a dozen. 

Q. And you sell it for $1 a dozen and it costs ? A. That is 
what the jobber pays, and the jobber raises to the retailer. 

Q. What does he sell it for ? A. I am not well enough posted 
to want to testify to that, about the exact price, because I 'don't 
know ; I don't have a thing to do with the selling end. 

Q. What does the jobber sell it for ? A. By the time a can of 
corn reaches the consumer from the packer, it will have increased 
in price, I should think, five cents a can, anyway. 

Q. That is the kind you sell for $1 a dozen, which is about 
eight cents a can, that will sell for at least thirteen cents ? A. I 
think so; yes. 

Q. It may sell for fifteen cents ? A. Well, yes, if a fellow can 
get it ; it depends on quality. 

Q. The retailer gets nearly — A. I am not conversant enough 
to give testimony to that. 

Q. At any rate, the eight-cent kind you could sell for fifteen 
cents? A. Yes. 

Q. How about your high-grade goods? A. Well, you get — 
there is more of a margin than that in high-grade goods. 

Q. For the retailer ? A. Yes. You take peas and string beans ; 
they are very hard to pack and command a larger profit, and a 
better margin for the retailer. 

Q. Give us an illustration. What would you sell a good class 
of beans at ? A. A good No. 4 split wrinkled pea will sell, this 
year the way they are this year, will sell for $1.50 a dozen. 









M 



1? 



332 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. That is about twelve and one-half cents a can ? A. Yee. 

Q. What will the retailer sell that for? A. Twelve and one- 
half cents a can, that will go up to 18 cents or 20 cents a can or 
more, if it is prime stuff; 18 to 20 cents, I should think. 

Q. And that is a fair illustration, then, of about the way it is 
done? A. Why, yos; that is about the way it is run, I think. 

Q. I suppose it is better to cut out all one can of that middle- 
man's profit ? A. We sell to the retailers, sometimes. 

Q. Ought not the canners, to meet the situation, eliminate all 
middlemen's profits which they can, and keep it for themselves 
and the purchaser? A. The difticulty is, can you keep it for 
yourself ? 

Q. Where would it go to ? A. The retailer might want some 
of it 

Q. If you sold the retailer direct you might have to give him 
a greater profit? A. Might have to. 

Q. B,ut not as much as the jobber gets? A. It would be a 
pretty big proposition. The trouble is to get a bunch of people 
to hang together and all do alike ; that is the troubla 

Mr. Elkus : I also offer in evidence the time sheet for Friday, 
July 12, 1912. 

(Said sheet was marked Exhibit No. 3, of H. C. Hemingway 
& Co., August 13, 1912, and is as follows) : 

H. C. HEMINGWAY & CO. (Incorporated). 
Auburn, N. Y. Clyde, N. Y. Syracuse, N. Y. Lyons, N. Y. 



Daily Time Sheet. 



Date, eluly 12, 1912. 



Name. 


A. 


M. 


P. 


M. 


Night. 


Total 


Friday. 


Start. 


Stop. 


Start. 


Stop. Start. Stop. 


No. hours. Remarks 


Bartelloni, Mary . . . 


e3 


12 




6 


68 


81 


111 




Bowers, Lizzie 


71 


12 




101 






14 




Galena, Anna 


7 


12 




82 






122 




Carmacelli, Ant... 


6 


12 




42 






92 


61 out. 


Carlo, Mary 


8 


12 




6 






9 




Carrone, Mary 


, 7 


12 




6 






10 




Check, Annie 


7 


12 




82 . 






122 


3 out. 


Cognoski, Telly.... 


7 


12 


123 


82 . 






128 




Cosendee, Frances. 


7 


12 


1 


82 . 


• • 




122 








Roy W. Hemingway. 



Name. 

Friday. 
Dominick, Ant.... 

Donelly, Mrs 

Dencki, Mary 

Ely, Maude 

Engina, Rosy 

Farby, Mary 

Felicia, Anna 

Finn, Mrs 

Fennieh, Mary — . 
Gust i Hone, Rosette 

Hanson, Mrs 

Holmes, Mrs 



A. M. 

Start. Stop. 



7 
63 

7 

7 



12 

• • 

12 
12 
63 12 
8 12 
12 
12 



P.M. Night 

Start. Stop. Start. Stop. 

1 6 . . 



7 
7 

81 12 
7 12 



12 



128 

1 

128 

1 

1 

1 

1 
12^ 
128 

1 



101 
82 
6 
82 
6 

101 
6 
81 
82 
82 
6 



101 



101 



Jakenute, Annie 

Keppulu, Nellie... 7 12 123 82 

Kutash, Mary 63 12 1 82 

Laraube, Annie.... 7 12 1 6 
Mangella, Laura... 63 12 1 101 

Maria, Jennie 

Marr, Maud 

Massie, Josie 

Murphy, Angelina. 
Mengens, Gashte . . 

Naravine, Ant 

Nette, Garmella. . . 

Ottman, Anna 

Parell, Mary 

Procoasine, Mary.. 
Regelta, Tarda. . . . 

Rice, Mary 

Ritzugal, Angeltine 

Rich, Mrs 

Rosa, Lena 

Roach, Annie 

Rutska, Josea 6* 12 

Sarah, Mary «« 12 

Secora, M 

Snyder, Rose 7 12 

Scanlon, Mrs 10 12 

Silva, Garmella 7 12 

Spino, Mrs 7 12 

Stone, Mary 6» 12 

Syracuse, Santa ... 68 12 

Totzi, Mary 7 12 

Walter, Racheal... 7 12 
Zarmelia, Lenora.. 7 12 
Yoffie, Lea 7 12 



333 

Total 
No. hours. Remarks. 

10 ^ out. 

152 

128 

10 

13 

12t 

141 

131 

111 

123 

73 

2 rusty cans of 
corn. 

3 Wallis Ave. 



123 
123 

10 
142 



3 S. Division St. 



12 
12 
12 
63 12 
12 
12 
12 
12 
12 
12 
68 12 
63 12 
7 12 



1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
123 

1 
1 
1 
1 
1 
1 



101 
101 
82 
82 
6 
6 
82 
82 
101 
42 
82 
82 
6 



141 
141 
122 
123 
10 
10 
12^ 
123 
14 
92 
123 
123 
10 



128 

128 

• • 

1 
1 
1 

128 
123 

1 
1 
1 
1 
1 



82 
82 

« • 

6 
6 
5 

82 

6 

82 

101 

82 

82 
6 



7 
8 



13 
.. 13 

• • • • 

.. 10 

101 101 
82 92 
128 

102 

128 
141 
122 
122 
10 






It' 



I > 



''1 






i 



il 

lip 

■|:' 
il 



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I III 



■ i 



334 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Mr. Elkus: I also offer the time sheet for July 10, 1912, 
showing both men and women who worked that day. 

(Said sheet is marked Exhibit AV 4, H. C. Hemingway & Co., 
August 13, 1912), and is as follows: 

H. C. HEMIXOWAY & CO. (Tncorporatod). 
Auburn, K. Y. Clyde, N. Y. Syracuse, N. Y. Lyon, N. Y. 



Daily Time Sheet. 



Date, July 10, 1912. 



Name. 
Wednesday. 

Ashbury, E. T 

Aahbury, L , 

Banfield, R. J 

Barnes, H. E , 



A.M. P.M. Night. Total 
Start. Stop. Start Stop. Start. Stop. No. honrs. R<»mark8. 
7 7 13 



6 
7 

7 



62 



12 



Berry, John 

Borano, John 

Borselo, Dorn 

Caflfrey, S. A 

Carberry, Chas 

Case, A 

Chamon, David 

Chomey, Mike 

Clack, Frederick . . . 

Carney, John 

Crane, Mike 

Currier, Claude... 

Dacy, Joe 

Danaky, Edw 

Dean, Wm 

Dissalow, Frank . . . 

Ely, Wm 

Ely, Roy 

Fenner, Louis 

Finn, Jerry 

Frisine, Dorn 

Gregory, Lawrence. 

Hababy, John 

Hare, Dell 

Haynes, J. K 

King, James 

King, Arthur 

Kornick, Tim 

LaGosH, Tony 



53 12 

4 

6 12 



1 

1 

» • 

1 



9 

• • 

6 



122 
4 21 

1 17 1 can beans in 
Bauce. 

141 
43 243 

11 



7 
6 



ei 12 

62 .. 

7 .. 

52 .. 

52 .. 



12 1 
12 1 
1 



6 
6 



7 12f 1 

71 12 1 

6 12 1 
53 12 1 

7 .. 
6.i 12 



7 
6 
6 

53 
9 



7 
6 



12 



7 12 

61 12 

7 12 

7 .. 

61 12 
7 

7 12 

6 12 

7 12 



123 

123 

• • 

1 

1 

121 
1 



6 
6 

103 
61 
6 
6 



1 103 



122 

1 
1 



6 
6 
6 



7 1 16 
132 
63 21 182 
1 191 
4 21 
1 192 
132 
6* 23 181 
7 11 16 
108 
141 
33 203 
63 31 19 
63 31 183 
163 
7 4 14 
7 1 16 
7 12 162 
62 1 162 

4 21 

158 
4 21 
7 113 151 

11 

7 23 173 



Name. 
Wednesday. 
Lay ton, Henry .... 

McLain, L 

McCarthy, John . . . 

Madden, John 

Madison, Andrew.. 

Marks, E. S 

Minson, Wm 

Mundy, Louis 

Miller, Wm 

Morse, A 

Nutz, Frank 

O'Brien, Wm 

O'Connor, John .... 

Palatzo, Jim 

Parks, Wm 

Payne, Frank 

Pinckney, J. A 

Powers, John 

Powers, Joseph.... 

Pyne, Frank 

Roto, John 

Secora, Tom 

Scanlon, Dan 

Segona, Mike 

Shirteau, Laurin . . . 

Sisson, Earle 

Shapiah, Tony 

Smith, Chas 

Treat, Calvin 

Van Etten, H. W.. 

Vingo, Tony 

O'Hara, Leo 

Wanick, Fred 

Walters, Harry. . . . 

Webber, Emil 

IMee, Henry 

Vine: 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

10 

12 

13 

14 

17 



Roy W. HE>tiNGWAY. 

A. M. p. M. Night Total 

start. Stop. Start Stop. Start. Stop. No. hours. 



6 

92 
7 
6 
6 



12 



12 63 



3 



103 
172 



12 123 



12 



1 

63 12 123 
123 
12 122 
82 128 



6 

7 
82 



6 7 121 152 

62 .. .. 122 

41 .. .. 91 

61 63 12 161 

6 63 1 112 

9 .. .. 142 

6 7 121 12 

83 .. .. 121 



61 12 



6 



113 152 



61 .. 
7 12 



6 



7 12 5 

12 . . 173 

72 1 152 



6 12 

6 12 

6 12 

71 12 



12 
12 



7 

7 

8 

6 

71 12 

53 12 

6 

7 12 

61 12 



1 
1 
1 

122 
1^ 
123 



7 

7 
7 



121 

12 

12 



63 12 
7 12 
72 12 



1 
122 

• • 

1 

123 

1 
1 

122 

1 

122 

1 



1 .. .. 12 

9 .. .. 14 

9 .. .. 14 

6 61 23 183 

6 63 1 163 

6 7 23 18 

7 71 4 193 

23 203 

6 7 3 173 

6 7 12 163 

«> • • • • al 

63 .. .. 98 

.. .. 22 193 

63 .. .. 11 

6 7 1 16 

111 153 

6 7 23 18 

23 191 

9 .. .. 122 



6 12 1 6 

6 12 1 9 

6 12 1 103 

61 12 1 6 

6 12 1 6 

6 12 1 6 

6 12 1 6 

6 122 1 7 

6 122 1 7 

6 12 122 6 

6 12 .. 



63 21 



• • 



182 

14 

15« 

103 

11 

11 

11 

12« 

122 

lis 
6 



335 



Remarks. 



336 



MiwuTEs OF Public Hearings. 






i 
\ 

V 
■ ; 

■.h'i 



1 ' ' 



!' 



•J 



( 



Name. a. M. 

Wednesday. start Stop. 

20 6 12 

21 6 12 

22 6 .. 

23 52 .. 

24 6 

25 43 

26 7 12 

27 6 12 

30 6 .. 

31 6 .. 

33 6 .. 

34 6 12 

35 6 12 

36 6 12 

37 6 12 

38 6 12 

39 6 12 

40 63 12 

41 61 12 

42 6 12 

45 6 12 

47 63 .. 

48 6 12 

4Q 

^" .. ,, 

•''>0 6 .. 

61 9 .. 

53 6 122 

54 6 .. 

' " .. ., 

57 

'• •••,, ..,, ,, ,j 

58 6 12 

59 6 

60 6 12 

65 61 12 

68 6 12 

72 6 12 

78 6 .. 

84 6 12 

85 01 12 

86 7 12 

90 6 12 

91 

92 6 12 

94 6 12 

96 6 12 

97 71 12 

103 6 121 



P. 


M. 


Night 


Total 


start Stop. Start Stop 


. No. hours. Remarks. 


122 


63 


• • 


« • 


Ill 


1 


53 


t • 






108 


• • 


53 


• • 






118 


• • 


12 


• • 






182 


• • 


122 


• • 






182 


• • 


9 


• • 






162 


123 


6 


7 


23 


18 


1 


9 


• • 


• • 


14 


• • 


• • 


• • 


1 


19 


• • 


• • 


• • 


1 


19 


• • 


• • 


• • 


1 


19 


1 


6 


• • 


• • 


11 


1 


6 


• • 






11 


1 


6 


• • 






11 


1 


6 


• • 






11 


1 


91 


• • 






141 


1 


6 


• • 






11 


122 


6 


• • 






103 


1 


6 


7 


12 


153 


1 


6 


63 


122 


163 


122 


6 


7 


1 


172 


• • 


11 




• • 


161 


122 


62 


7 


22 


192 


• • 


• • • 

61 


62 


• • 

22 


• • 

20 


• • 


• • • 




4 


19 


1 


53 . 




• • 


111 


• • 


8 




• • 


14 


• • 


• • • 




« • 


• • 


• • 


• • • 




• • 


• • 


122 


53 . 




• • 


111 


• • 


63 . 




• • 


113 


1 


63 . 




• • 


103 


123 


6 




• • 


11 


1 


63 . 




• • 


103 


1 


10 




• • 


15 


• • 


63 .. 




• • 


118 


123 


• • • « 




23 


20 


122 


6 1 




101 


143 


1 


6 C 


18 


23 


18 


1 


e 




• • 




11 



122 



1 


53 


1 


68 


1 


3 


1 


6 



112 

• • 

108 

108 

68 

111 



I 



I 



i 



K 



Roy W. Hemingway. 



337 



Name, 
Wednesday. 
105 

109 

110 

HI 

112 

113 

114 

115 

116 

117 

118 

119 

120 

121 

122 

124 

126 

127 , 

128 

129 

130 

131 

Steve Mohney, 132. 

Bow era, Lizzie 

Galena, Anna 

Carmacelli, Ant 

Carlo, Mary 

Carrone, Mary 

Charles, Mary 

Check, Annie 

Cognoski, Telly 

Dominick, Ant 

Donelly, Mrs 

Ely, Maud 

Engina, Rosy 

Farby, Mary 

Felicia; Anna 

Finn, Mrs 

Finnich, Mary 

Gusrillion, Rosette. 

Hansen, Mrs 

Holmes, Mrs 

Jakenute, Annie . . . 

Keppulu, Nellie 

Kutash, Mary 

Laranho, Annie. . . . 
Mangella, Laura . . . 
Maria, Jennie 



A.M. P.M. Night Total 

Start Stop. Start Stop. Start Stop. No. hours. 



Remarks. 



12 
12 
12 

• • 

12 
12 
12 
122 

• • 

12 
12 
63 12 
6 12 



6 

6 

7 

6 

6 

7 

6 

6 

6 

6 

6 



1 
1 
1 



6 
6 
6 



63 

7 

7 



122 103 



1 
1 
1 

• • 

122 

1 

123 

1 



6 
6 

6 
6 

• • 

63 

7 

• « 

7 
7 
6 

7 
7 



12 122 

12 1 

12 1 

121 1 



6 
53 

6 

53 

53 

9 

6 

53 

• • 

53 
53 

6 
53 



12 

12 
12 
12 
12 
12 



123 

U 

1 
123 

1 

1 

1 



11 

• « 

•6 

• • 

6 
5 
6 
6 



33 20 
21 181 
2 17 
1 19 
..161 
10 

103 
.. 112 

113 

111 
.. 14 

102 
103 

. * • • 

111 

103 

11 
.. 11 

• • • • 

161 
23 19 
43 
22 182 
22 173 62 out. 

10 

10 
22 173 



43 out. 



7 12 
63 12 
7 12 
63 .. 

71 12 
63 12 

72 12 
12 
12 
12 

63 12 

' • • • 

7 12 



7 
8 
7 



1 6 7 112 143 

123 6 .. ..102 

1 6 7 22 172 
22 193 

1 6 .. .. 93 111 out. 

123 .. .. 93 141 

1 .6 7 22 17 

1 .. .. 22 182 

1 6 7 12 152 

1 6 .. .. 10 

1 6 7 112 143 

123 6 72 22 121 

1 6 



7 
7 

7 
7 



12 

12 

• • 

12 
12 



123 
1 
1 

123 



6 
6 
6 
6 



10 1 can beans. 



5 

101 
6 
112 142 

.. 10 



f 



338 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



■'1 

"A 



r 



tiif 



Name. A. M. 1'. M, Night. Total 

Wednesday. Start. Stop. Start Stop. Start. Stop. No. hours. Ri-mark*. 

Marr, Maud 

Massie, Josie 7 112 42 

Murphy, Arigoliiie.. 7 12 1 6 7 112 I42 

Mengens, Gashte... 63 12 123 c 7 112 15 

Naravine, Ant 7 12 1 6 .... 10 

Netto, Carmella.... 7 12 1 6 .... 10 

Ottman, Anna 7 12 123 6 7 II2 143 

Parell, Mary 7 12 1 6 7 II2 122 

Peternut, Josephine 

Procossine, Mary.. 82 12 1 .. .. 22 17 

Regelta, Tarda 6 12 1 5 .. ..10 

Rice, Mary 63 12 123 6 7 112 15 

Ritzugal, Angeltine. 7 12 1 6 7 1 12 142 

Rice, Mrs 7 12 1 6 .. ..10 

Rosa, Lena 6'{ 12 1 6 7 112 14.1 

Roach, Annie 63 12 123 6 7 112 15 

Rutska, Josea 63 12 123 6 7 112 1.-, 

Sarah, Mary 63 12 123 6 7 112 15 

Secora, M 7 12 1 6 .. .. 10 

Snyder, Rose 7 12 1 6 .. ..1-0 

Scanlon. Mrs 7 12 1 6 7 22 172 

Silva, Carmella 7 12 1 6 .. ..10 

Spino, Mrs 7 12 123' 6 7 112 143 

Stone, Rosy 63 12 123 6 .. .. 102 

Syracuse, Santa... 63 12 1 6 7 II2 143 

Totzi, Marv 63 12 1 .. .. 22 183 

Walter, Racheal... 7 12 123 6 7 II2 143 

Yoffie, Lea 72 12 1 6 .. .. 92 

Zamelia, Lenora... 63 12 123 6 .. .. 102 

Casendee, Frances.. 71 12 123 6 7 112 102 

Denki, Mary 7 12 123 6 7 93 13 

Mr. Elkus: Xote in tlio records that Exhibit Nos. 1, 2, 3 
and 4 are the daily time sheets showing the hQurs of labor of 
women employed in H. C. Hemingway & Co. plant, Auburn, 
K Y., for Juiy 10, 11, 12 and 13, 1912. 

Further hearings adjourned to August 14, 1912, 1 p. m. 



Kate Kei^on. 



3a9 



The Commission Then Inspected the Plant of the Inter- 
national Harvester Co. (Osborne Twine Works) in 
Auburn and the Following Testimony was Taken in 
THE Plant. 

Kate Nelson an employee of the International Harvester 
Co. (Osborne Twine Works) called as a witness testifie<l 
as follows : 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How old are you? A. Seventeen. 

Q. Where were you bom j A. In the old country. 

Q. Where do you come from ? A. Austria. 

Q. What portion of Austria ? What is the name of the place ? 
A. I don't know; I forget the name. 

Q. How long liave you been here ? A. Eight years. 

Q. Have you got a father and mother ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Does your father work here? A. 'No, sir. 

Q. Where does he work ? A. In the foundry. 

Q. Does your mother work too? A. l^o; stay at home. 

Q. How many brothers and sisters have you got? A. One 
brother, small; and one big sister, married. 

Q. Does she work, your big sister ? A. Yes. 

Q. Whereabouts? A. Here; works at night. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. What time does she come on to work? A. Seven, start, 
about. 

Q. What time do they finish? A. Half past six. 
Q. Half past six to-morrow morning? A. Yes. 
Q. How old is she? A. Twenty. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. What time do you start here ? What time in the morning ? 
A. Seven, I start work in the morning, and finish at six in the 
evening. 

Q. And fifty minutes for lunch? A. Yes. 

Q. How long have you been working hero ? A. Couple months. 

Q. Only a couple of months ? A. Yes. 



840 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



^ I 



•■ i 



'I 



( 



li ' t 



Q. Where did you work before you came here | A. No place ; 
stayed home. 

Q. Stayed home? A. Yes. 

Q. What do you do here? What part of the shop do you 
work in? A. Preparation room. 

Q. What do you do? Just tell us. A. Watch on the raacliiii- 
ery, take the twine and put it on the machine. 

Q. You put it on the machine, and then take it off ? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you stand up all day long, or sit down ? A. Stand up. 

Q. Stand all day long? A. Yes. 

By Senator Wagnbb: 

Q. You are not allowed to sit down? A. No. 

By Mr, Elkus: 

Q. How much do you get paid? A. $7 or $8, as many as I 
make. 

Q. You are paid by the piece ? A. Yes. 

Q. How much do you get paid, so much for what, every piece 
you turn out? A. No; that is for piece work. I don't know 
how they get paid. 

By Senator Wagnbb: 

Q. You don't know how you get paid? A. No; that is piece 
work. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. You work by the piece or by the week ? A. Week. 

Q. How much do you get ? A. $7 or $8. 

Q. Do you get the same each week? A. No; sometimes get 
seven and a couple cents, next week get eight. 

Q. Do you get paid according to the time you work, or what ? 
A. No. If I start to hurry the machine, then I get more pay. 

Q. That kind of machine (indicating) ? A. Yes. 

Q. Which machines do you get seven and which machines do 
you get eight dollars a week for ? A. Front " tieing " machine 
I get six or seven by whether I hurry in front machines I get 
eight and some cents and seven and some cents. 

Q. Why do you wear a cap on your hair, to keep the dust out ? 



Mary Previ. 341 

Q. Is the dust very bad? A. Little bit. 

Q. Does it get into your throat? A. No. 

Q. Do you get a cough a little ? A. No. - 

Q. Do you ever get sick? A. No. 

Q. How long do you work on Saturdays? A. Saturdays? 

Q. Yes. A. Five. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Five o'clock? A. Yes; before work till noon, now work 
till fiva 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Do you wear a guard on your fingers? A. No. 

Q. You don't use your hands at all, do you? A. No. 

Q. Do you push these big, high barrels around with the twine ? 
A. No. 

Q. Is the floor slippery? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you ever slip on it? A. No. 

Q. Are you tired when you get through at night? A. Some- 
times tired. 

Q. When you get home you don't feel like going out after you 
have your supper, do you? A. No. 

Q. What machines do you attend, are you in a spinning room, 
or what room ? A. Preparation machines. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. How long has your sister been working nights? A. On 
this job they work at night, that is all. 

Q. How long ago is that, about? A. I don't know. 

Q. Do you know how long ago your sister started to work 
nights? A. No. 

Q. Don't know? A. Na 

Mary Previ, employee of the International Harvester Co. 
(Osborne Twine Works), testified as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How long have you been in this country ? A. Four years 
in December. 

Q. Don't you speak English? A. Little bit 



342 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. How long have you worke<l here? A. Three years this 
December. 

Q. How old are.jou? A. I am nineteen. 

Q. Worked here three years last December? A. Yes. 

Q. What room do you work in ? A. The preparation room. 

Q. What time do you come in the morning? A. Half past 
six. 

Q. You get here about half past six? A. Yes. 

Q. What time do you stop at night ? A. Six o'clock. 

Q. What time do you come Saturdays, same time? A. Y-es. 

Q. What time do you stop on Saturdays ? A. Five o'clock. 

Q. How long do you have for dinner in the day time? A. 
Fifty minutes. 

Q. Fifty minutes? A. Fifteen minutes. 

Q. Fifteen minutes? A. Yes. 

Q. Well, do you work by the piece or by the week ? How do 
you get paid, by the piece or by the week? A. Seven or eight a 
week. 

Q. How is it, by the piece or by the week ? A. Piece work, be- 
cause one w^eek I make less and one week more. 

Q. How is it arranged,? A. I don't know. 

Q. Some weeks you get seven and some weeks eight ? A. Yes. 

Q. Have you done this work since you have been here for the 
three years or more ? A. Xo. 

Q. What else did you do ? A. Only in the preparation room. 

Q. What did you do in the preparation room ? What kind of 
work did you do ? A. Feed the machines. 

Q. Did you stand up or sit down ? A. Stand up. 

Q. Are there any seats? A. No. 

Q. You stand all day from the time you come here until lunch 
time? A. Yes. 

Q. Then you start right in after lunch ? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you eat your lunch in the lunch room, or do you take 
it just where you are ? A. Go home to lunch. 

Q. How can you go home and back in fifteen minutes ? A. I 
live only five minutes I am home. 

Q. How long does it take you to eat? A. Five minutes. 

Q. And five minutes to come back ? A. Yes. 



Mary Previ. 



343 



Q. How much do yqu get per hour or for each piece of work 
you did? A. 1 don't know. No one ever told me how I am paid; 
all I know is I got my envelope, sometimes it is more and some- 
times less. 

Q. Do you e^^er work at night time? A. Xo. 

Q. Have you ever been sick in three years ? A. Yes. 

Q. Had to stay home? A. Yes. 

Q. What was the matter with you? A. I was sick. 

Q. From the work ? A. My stomach — headache and stomach 
troubles. 

Q. Do your feet ever hurt you at night? A. Yery much. 

Q. Every night? A. Yes; every night. 

Q. Do they swell ,up ? A. Xo. 

Q. Do you have to go to bed when you get home, right after 
supper? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Would you like to sit down if you could when you work ? 
A. Oh, sure. 

Q. Do any of the other girls sit down that work in the prepa- 
ration room, or do they all stand up ? A. Yes ; all stand up. 

Q. How many work there, do yqu know ? A. I don't know. 

Q. Is the floor slippery? A. Yes; very slippery. 

Q. Do you wear shoes in there all the time, or do you wear 
slippers? A. Shoes. 

Q. Is the light good in the room? A. It is dark, but there is 
electric light. 

Q. How about the dust ; is there dust in there from the twine ? 
A. Sure, awful; it hurts. 

Q. Gets in your throat? A. Yes. 

By Senator Wagnek : 

Q. Since you started to work here, have yoiu always earned 
about the same amount of money each week ? A. Yes. 

Q. About six or seven or eight dollars a week from the time 
you started three years ago? A. Yes. 

Q. Always about the same, never any more or any less? A. 
Yes. 

Q. Just about the same? A. Yes. 

By the interpreter: Ofttimes six, six and seven, sometimes 
eight; it runs like that way. 



344 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



It 









M 



■Ji 



By Mr. Elkus; 

Q. Never more tlian eight? A. Never more than eight. 

Q. Do yon work at home wheii you get home? Do you do 
house work? A. Yes. 

Q. What do you do at homo? A. I do everything. 

Q. Have you got a mother and father ? A. Yes. 

Q. Does your father work ? A. Yes ; he works in the prepa- 
ration room. 

Q. What does he make in the preparation room? 

The Intekpreter : She says he lost four fingers a few years 
ago in here. 

Q. In this factory ? A. Yes. 
Q. In a machine? A. Yes. 
Q. Did he get any money for it ? A. Yes. 
Q. How much? A. I don't know. 

Q. How much does your father make? A. Seven dollars and 
eight dollars ; no more than eight dollars a week. 

Q. How old is your father ? A. He will be fifty-five. 

Senator Wagner: How many hours does he work a day, the 
same as yo|U? 

The Witness: He works more than me; I don't know. 

The Interpreter : The father works longer than she. 

By Mr. Elkus: (Following answers by Interpreter) : 

Q. What time does he come home in the morning? A. A 
quarter to seven in the morning. The hours he works are less, 
but he works much harder than she; that is what she means to 
say. 

Josephine Cristenoli, an employee of the International 
Harvester Company (Osbonie Twine Works), called as a 
witness, testified as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Were you bom in this country ? A. No. 

Q. Were you bom in Italy? A. Yes. 

Q. How long have you been here ? A. Around seven years. 



Josephine Cristenoli. 



345 



Q. How old are you ? A. Sixteen. 

Q. When were you sixteen ? A. I will be in October twenty- 
fourth, I will finish sixteen. 

Q. How long have you been working here ? 
By Senator W^agneb: 

Q. Are you sixteen yet? A. Yes; October I will be seventeen. 

Q. Do you go to school here ? A. No. 

Q. Did you go to school here? A. No. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Didn't you go to school in this country ? A. No. 

Q. How long have you been working here ? A. First I worked 
three months ; then I went on vacation, then I came around here 
about three weeks ago. 

Q. Three weeks ago you came here ? A. Yes. 

Q. And you worked here before that ? A. Yes. 

Q. How long did you work here ? A. I don't know. 

Q. How old were you when you came to this country? A. I 
w^as around seven years old. 

Q. Didn't you go to school at all? A. Yes; I went to school 
around three years. 

Q. For three years? A. Yes. 

Q. What did you do after that, work ? A. Work. 

Q. Where did you work first? A. The first time I worked 
here. 

Q. You were only ten years old then ? A. No. 

Q. How old are you ? A. Seventeen. 

Q. Well, you came here how long ago? When did you 
come to this country? A. Seven years old. 

Q. Seven years ago? A. Yes. 

Q. You were seven years old, or seven years ago, which is it ? 
A. Seven years old. 

The Interpreter : Perhaps around twelve years, I have been 
here, is her answer. 

Q. When you worked here first, what room did vou work in? 
A. Upstairs. 

Q. What room is that ? Wliat did they do ? A. Spinning. 



346 



Minutes of Prp.LTc Hkat?tnor. 



Q. At what time did you come here in the morning? What 
time do you come i A. Seven o'clock. 

Q. What time do you leave at night? A. Six. 

Q. And how long do you have for your lunch 'i A. Half an 
hour. 

Q. Half an hour? A. Yes. 
Q. Do you go home for lunch r A. Ko. 
Q. Bring your lunch with you ? A. Buy it down stairs. 
Q. They don't give it to you '( A. No. 

Q. How much do they sell it for? A. Sandwiches two cents. 
Q. A cup of coffee is how much ? A. One cent. 
Q. You buy your lunch? A. ^'es. 

Q. Do you work by the piece or by the week ? A. By piece. 
Q. How much do you got per piece? A. Sometimes seven 
cents. 

Q. How much do you make a week ? A. Make around seven 
dollars. 

Q. Seven dollars a week ? A. Yes. 

Q. What do you do? What kind of work do you do? A. 
Spinning. 

Q. You put the twine in the machine? A. Yes. 

Q. And pull it out ? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you have to push those big barrels of stuff ? Do you 
push those alone? A. Yes. 

Q. How much do they weigh, do you know ? A. j know how 
much my bobbins weighs. 

Q. How much ? A. Sometimes three hundred and two or three 
hundred and five. 

Q. Pounds? A. Yes. 

Q. And do you push it or wait for them? A. No; the boy 
comes along. 

Q. The boy comes and pushes it ? A. Yes. 

Q. And what do you have to push ? A. Only my stuff. 

Q. How much does that weigh, do you know? A. T don't 
know. 

Q. Does it weigh as much as your bobbins? A. No. 

Q. Half as much ? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you get tired at night when you go home? A. No. 



Josephine Cristenoli. 



347 



Q. Do your feet hurt you ? A. No. 

Q. Never hurt you ? A. No. 

Q. You have only been working here three weeks? A. Yes. 

Q. Is there a lot of dust in your room? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you cough and sneeze with it ? A. Yes. 

Q. Very often? A. Not very often. 

Q. Does it get in your throat ? A. Yes. 

Q. Does it hurt you ? A. Not very much. 

Q. Have you ever been sick ? A. No. 

Commissioner Wagnee: Does your head ache when you get 
home, once in a while? 

The Witness: No. 

Q. Do you sit down or stand up, when at work? A. Some- 
times we — the machines go all right, we sit down, sometimes ; 
when they go bad, stand. 

Miss Dreier: What happens if you are late to the factory? 
Have you ever been late? 

The Witness: No. 

Q. Do you get here at seven or half past six in the morning ? 
A. 1 start from home at half past six. 
Q. And get here at seven? A. Yes. 

By Commissioner Wagner: 

Q. Have you got a long walk from your home to here? A. 
Yes. 

Q. Do you walk home and walk in the morning from your 
home to the factory, too, do you ? A. Yes. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. What time do you get up in the morning ? A. Around half 
past five. 

Q. And do you make your own breakfast, or does your mother 
do it? A. My mother. 

Q. And it takes you half an hour to walk here ? A. Yes. 

Q. And when you get through at night you walk home? A. 

Yes. 

Q. And you get home about half past six? A. Yes. 



348 



Minutes of Public Hearinos. 



Q. Do you go to bed right away after supper ? A. No. 
Q. AVhere do you go, moving picture show ? A. 1 never went 
to moving picture show around here. 
Q. You just moved here? A. Yes. 
Q. Where did you live before ? A. I lived in Westchester. 

By Senator Wagner : 

Q. How long are you living here ? A. Around seven months. 
Q. Do you know the name of the city ? A. What city ? 
Q. Where you are living now ? A. Yes. 
Q. What is it ? A. Number five Luf re place. 
Q. What is the name of the city, that is what I mean ? A. 
Auburn. 

Q. Have you any brothers and sisters? A. No. 
Q. Are you the only child? A. Yes. 

Q. What do you do with your monev ? Give it to vour mother ? 
A. Give it to mv father. 

Q. To whom ? A. My father. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Does your father work ? A. Yes. 
0. Where? A. In the track. 
Q. "Railroad track? A. Yes. 

Senator Wacjxek: Is your mother living? A. No; 1 got 
stepmother. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. Do you keep any of the money for yourself^ A. No; I 
give it all to him. 

Q. Does he give you some back every week ? A. If I ask him 
to, he does give me some. 

Lucy Charles, an employee of the International Harves- 
ter Company (Osborne Twine Works), being duly sworn, 
testified as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How old are you ? A. I was 17 the 18tli of April. 
Q. How long have you been workin.fr here? A. The 26th of 
April was one year. 



Lucy Charles. 



349 



Q. What room do you work in ? A. The spinning room. 

Q. In the spinning room ? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you work at a machine? A. Yes. 

Q. What do you do? A. Fill bobbins up in the spinning 
machines. 

Q. Do you stand up or sit down ? A. Stand up. 

Q. All day? A. When we have two or three minutes to sit 
down, we sit down; but most of the time we never get the time 
to sit down. 

Q. What time do you come here in the morning? A. Come 
here when it is about ten minutes or five minutes. 

Q. Ten minutes to what ? A. To 7. 

Q. How long do you get for your lunch, for your dinner ? A. 
We get a half hour. 

Q. A half hour ? A. Yes. 

Q. How long do you take ? Do you take your dinner hour to 
go home, or do you take your dinner here? A. We take our 
dinner here. 

Q. What time do you stop at night ? A. Stop next at 6 o'clock 

Q. Do you walk home? A. Yes. 

Q. How long does it take you ? A. Takes me half an hour. 

Q. What time do you get up in the morning ? A. Half past 5. 

Q. Then you w^alk here? A. Yes. 

Q. Have you got a father and mother? A. Yes. 

Q. Does your father work? A. ]\Iy father he is most of the 
time he don't feel well, he don't work. 

Q. He is sick? A. Yes. 

Q. How many brothers and sisters have you got? A. Two 
brothers and four sisters. 

Q. Do you ever work here at night ? A. No. 

Q. Does any of your family work here, any of your brothers 
or sisters ? A. ^fy sister worked here couple of months, then 
she ffot married. 

Q. Is the floor slippery in your room ? A. In the room where 
I work? 

Q. Yes? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you ever fall down ? A. I do once in a while. 

Q. Ihivt voursolf ^ A. No. 



f 



350 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



I 



Q, Is there dust in your room from the twine and from the 
stuff? A. Only when tlioy clean around. 

Q, 1 saw some of the i»irls sweeping each other oif with a 
broom. Do you do that during the day in your room? A. Yes • 
wo have to do that at 10 o'clock and before 5, twice a day. 

Q. It gets so thick on you ( A. Yes. 

Q. But you wear something over your hair to keep the dust 
out? A. Yes. 

Q. Does it get into your throat inn. and do you cough? A. 
Sometimes in the winter time it does. 

Q. Is there light in your room, or is it dark? A. In the place 
that 1 work it is dark most of the time. 

Q. Is it hot there, too ? Do you pei*spire ? A. Yes. 

Q, Very hot ? A. Sometimes. 

Q. Do your feet hurt you when you get home nights ? A. Y^es. 

Q. Every night? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you swell up at all ^ A. They used to swell up when I 
was not used to work on them so long, but now the^ don't. 

Miss Dkj<:ier: Not ever? 
The Witness: No. 

Q. Do they hurt you ? A. Oh, yes. 

i). What do you do wIkmi yon gel home, eat your supper and 
go to bed? A. I eat sup])er and then I sit down for a while, and 
when I don't feel like sitting down, I go to bed. 

Q. Y^ou are tired out pretty much every night? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you ever have headaches ? A. Y^es, lot of times. 

Q. Is there noise in your room, great deal of noise? A. Yes. 
the terrible noise down here. 

Q. How much do you make a week? A. I never could get 
more than seven dollars. 

Q. Never? A. No. 

Q. How much is the most you made? 
had to work all week and work as hard 
got $7.14. 

Q. What do you mean by working terribly hard ? A. To make 
a little more money. 

Q. Work your very best, just as fast as you could? A. Yes. 



A. The most I get, I 
- terrible hard, and I 



Lucy Charles. 



Senator WagiNeu: And never sat down, I suppose? 



351 



The Witness : No ; nobody sits down. They keep them always 
going, always going. 

Q. That is the hardest you could work, and you made $7.14:? 

A. Y'^es. 

Q, Did you work overtime to do that or not ? A. No. 

Q. Did you come here early in the morning? A. Oh, yes. 

Q. What time did you come liere then ? A. Quarter to 6 from 
home, I would be here when it was quarter or fifteen minutes, 
and I would come here when it was ten minutes, and I could do 

that 

Q. Do they have night work on your machinery too ? A. Y^es, 

Q. Girls go on as soon as you leave? A. No; not for a while. 

Q. Have you ever been hurt, or any of the girls been hurt in 
your room ? A. Been hurt ? 

Q. Your fingers hurt in the machinery ? A. A lot of times I 
get hurt myself. 

Q. You did ? A. Yes. 

Q. Where, on your fingers? A. Most of the time I had to 
go up to No. 1, I had a sore hand right down to here (indicating) 
and they had to fix it up some. 

Q. What did they do, sew it up for you? A. No; they put 
something on. And last week I cut my finger right down here, 
here and here, and that it was in my bone here, and it was raw for 
two days, and I commenced work again. 

Q. Did they pay you while you were away? A. I couldn't 
work. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. You didn't get paid for that? A. No. 
Q. And you could not work because you were hurt while you 
were working? A. Yes. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. What do they use that knife for (indicating knife) ? A. 
They use this knife to cut the strings around on the machine and 
take the bobbins out. Y^'ou can't work without a knife ; you have 
to keep the knife. 



352 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Antonina Donati. 



353 



m 



A \^l '^T '""^^l^ ^'" ^''^ " ^"^^^' ^' ^« t^-t Jonv knifed 
A. VVe have to pay for it. * 

Q. How much ? A. Ten cents. 

w,^, f« :r '"• "" ""'" '"" ^- ""'- - '"« " "ej 

By Commissioner Phillips : 

Q How long do you work here? A. The 23d of April T 
think, was one year. ^ ' ^ 

Q. Do you ever work nights ? A. ]^o. 

Miss D«k:kh: Are you ever late to the facto^ i„ the morning? 
The Witness: ]^o. 

Miss Drkikr: Do jou ever have to pay any fines? 
The Witness: No. 
By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. If you are late what happens to you? A. Nothing- we 
work p^ece work; they only give us a scJlding if we come in a 
couple minutes late. * 

Ye?' ?/r "'^ ^ 'T'" "^ •"'°"*"^ '"*^' y°" S°t a scolding ? A 
hie. '^ "^" ° "'"' "^ ""''^ ''' - «">■ --^ hav'e to go 

U>lZ1lT.^:!Z'' '''''' '-''-'' ^- ^-'-^wehave 
Q. You can come in the afternoon ? A Yes 

Sn2* ^^""^ 1''',! "^^ ^''^ ^"^" ^^^ ^^"^ ^"^^^ t^^^e at noon ? A 
Sometimes half an hour, sometimes thirty-five minutes Lmt* 
times forty ; most of the time half an hour. ' 

Q. Do you get your lunch here or so home ? A Wo K.- 
lunch ; I canH go home. * ^ ^''''^ ^"^ 

Miss Dreiek : You don't buy the lunch down stairs ? 

The Witness: Most of the days I buy it. 

Q. What is the lowest you made here ? You said you made 
^ven dollars and fourteen cents one week by workin. extra W 
What was the smallest sum? A. Sometimes make% f doS' 
most of the time I make ^ve dollars. '' 

Q. Most of the time five dollars A. Yes. 



Q. That is, if you sit down five minutes you only make five 
dollars a week? A. If I don't keep going. Lots of time we 
haven't got any work. 

Q. Then you sit down ? A. Yes. 

Q. If you want to keep going all the time, you have to stand 



up 



? A. Yes. 



Q. Are there any other girls hurt the way you are? Are they 
hurt all the time on their hands the way you are ? A. Xo. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Did you ever see any of the other girls get hurt? Did 
you hear them talk about their hands being sore ? A. There was 
one girl used to work near me, she don't come to work any more; 
she used to get corns all over her hands, because the machines are 

hot. 

Q. She had to give it up ? A. Yes. 

Miss Dreier: Does your back ever ache? 
The Witness: Lots of times. 

Senator Wagner: You think it is pretty hard work, don't 
you? 

The Witness : Yes. 

By Assemblyman Phillips : 

Q. Did you ever work at anything else? A. Yes, I worked all 

over. 

Q. What else did you do? A. I went to work up in the shoe 

shop and to the robe shop and factories. 

Q. How old were you when you first went to work? A. I 
only worked couple of years. I started to work sixteen years old. 

Q. You are eighteen now ? A. Yes. 

Antonina Donati, an employee of the International Har- 
vester Company (Osborne Twine Works), l)eing duly 
sworn, testified as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus : 

Q. How old are you? A. Twenty-four years old. 
(Examination through the Interpreter.) 
Vol. Ill — 12 






M:: ' 



V 



,;l 



354 



Minutes of Publio Heabings. 



Q. How long have you been working here? A. Two months 
and a half. 

Q. Where did you work before ? A. No place; just came from 
Italy. 

Q. Come with your parents or alone? A. Alone. 

Q. Where did you come from, what part of Italy ? A. From 
Messina. 

Q. Are you living with friends or relatives. A. Brothers. 

Q. What do you do here ? A. At the machines. 

Q. What machines? W^hich room is she in? 

The Interpreter: She doesn't know. 

Q. What kind of work do you do, stand up all day ? A. Fill- 
ing bobbins, spinning. 

Q. Does she stand up? A. Always standing. 

Q. How much a week do you make? A. As much as I can 
make. 

Q. How much is that ? A. Seven dollars. 

Q. What time do you come in the morning ? A. I don't know 
the time. As soon as the machines start up, I commence to work. 

Q. What time do you get up in the morning ? A. Five o'clock. 

Q. How long does it take to come here? A. I don't know. 

Q. Do you walk here? A. Yes; walk all the tima 

Q. And you get here before the machinery begins? A. Yes. 
Almost always happens soon as I an*ive here the machines start. 

Q. And do you go home for dinner in the middle of the day ? 
A. Live very far from here. 

Q. How long do you take for lunch ? A. As soon as I can get 
a small bite, go right back to work. 

Q. A few minutes, fifteen minutes? A. Not as much as a 
quarter of an hour. 

Q. What time do you stop work at night ? A. I think 6 o'clock. 

Q. Then do you walk home ? A. That is the only way, on foot. 

Miss Dbeier : Do you have to cook your dinner at night when 
you get home ? 

The Witness: No; my sister-in-law has dinner ready when 
I get home. 



I 



I 



Antonina Donati. 



855 



By Senator Wagner: 

Q. How many of you live together where you are living ? A. 

(By interpreter.) She and another gister and her brother-in-law. 

Q. And her sister-in-law, I suppose ? A. Six people. 

Q. In how many rooms? A. Three rooms. 

Q. How many women and how many men live there? A. 
Three women. 

Q. And the three women sleep in one room ? A. Two women 
in one room; two women in another room, man and wife in 
another room. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Is it very dusty where you work ? A. Yes. 

Q. Does it bother your throat much, the dust ? A. Until now 
she hasn't felt any effect. 

Q. Do your feet hurt you at the end of the day ? A. Certainly ; 
the work itself causes it because we are on our feet and we can't 
sit down ; otherwise we can't earn any money. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. You feel very tired at night, don't you, when you get home ? 
A. Very tired. 

Miss Dreier: Does your back ever ache? 

The Witness: The back and arms are tired, and when I 
awaken in the morning, I hardly feel able to go to work. 

By Assemblyman Jackson : 

Q. Ever see anyone hurt ? A. No. 

Q. How about your hands, do they bother you ? A. Little bits 
of cuts with a knife ; don't amount to anything. 

By Miss Dreibb: 

Q. Who washes your clothes for you ? A. My sister-in-law. 

Q. Do you pay your sister-in-law for doing this? A. Yes; 
paying for everything I get, meals and everything. 

Q. Do you send home any money to your people in Italy? 
A. No ; I haven't been able to pay the debt of my voyage here. 



W^i 



i> : 



u 



H 



356 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



By Senator Wagneb: 

Q. Do you know what rent you pay for the room? A. Eight 
dollars a month rent, including washing and board. 

Q. Do you know how much your brother pays for three rooms ? 
A. I don't know. 

Miss Dbbier : Did you ever make five dollars a week or more 
than five dollars a week ? 

The Witness : Yes. Last week was the only week I got seven 
dollars. Before that it was five dollars and six dollars. 

Q. Mostly five dollars? A. Yes. 

Miss Dreier: Did you have to work very hard for seven 
dollars 



The Witness: Yes; to all my strength. And you must not 
stop for even five minutes in the day if you want to make seven 
dollars. 

Rose Di Fasquale, an employee of the International Har- 
vester Company (Osborne Twine Works), being duly 
sworn, testified as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus : 

Q. How old are you ? A. Thirty-nine years. 

Q. Married or single? A. I am single. 

Q. N^ever been married ? A. No. 

Q. Whom do you live with ? A. Sister. 

Q. How long have you been in America? A. February, this 

year. 

(Answers by the interpreter.) 

Q. How long have you been working in this factory ? A. Three 
months, going on four. 

Q. Where did you work before ? A. New York. 

Q. What did you do in New York? A. Mattress factory, 
sewing on machines. 

Q. What work do you do here ? A. Filling bobbins. 

Q. By hand or machines, attending the machines? A. Ma- 
(•hines. 



Rose Di Pasquale, 



357 



Q. Do you sit down or stand up ? A. Stand up. 

Q. Do you ever sit down during the day ? A. At dinner time 
when I have lunch. 

Q. How long do you take for lunch? A. Take half an hour. 
If the machines begin whether it is time or not, always go to work 
when the machines start. 

Q. What time do you come here in the morning? A. I don't 
understand the time : can't tell time. 

Q. What time do you get up in the morning ? A. Five o'clock. 

Q. Do you walk here ? A. Yes. 

Q. Is it a long walk ? A. It might take twenty minutes to half 
an hour. 

Q. What time do you go home in the evening? A. Six o'clock 
we stop. 

Q. Walk home? A. Walk home. 

Q. Have you ever been sick since you have been here ? A. No. 

Q. What did you do in Italy before you came here ? A. Worked 
in the fields and home. 

Q. How did you come to Auburn? A. A sister of mine was 
here and we all came over here. 

Q. Have you ever been sick ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Do your feet hurt you after you get home at night ? A. Cer- 
tainly, after standing on your feet all day. 

Q. Do they swell up? A. They can't swell now (the inter- 
preter) : In other words she took it as a joke and said they can't 
swell any bigger than they are now. 

Q. Do you cough and sneeze from the dust? A. Nothing af- 
fects me. 

Miss Dreier : Does vour back ever ache ? 

The Witness : The legs more. 

Q. How much do you make each week ? A. The more I work 
the more I make; $6, $6.20, $6.40; sometimes less, other times 
more. 

Q. Most of the time how much, $5 or $6 ? A. Around $6.40. 

By Senator Wagner : 

Q. Did you ever make as high as eight dollars a week ? A. No. 



U 



358 



Minutes of PiTiiLic Hea kings. 



I J 



pi; 



' -I 



Q. What was the highest you ever made? A. Seven dollars 
and forty-nine cents. 

Q. Was that working as hard as you could all the time that you 
were here? A. Yes; working very hard. 

Q. Do you remember whether you came a little earlier in the 
morning when you earned that much money? A. Lots of times 
when the machines don't operate as well as at other times and 
she thinks she makes so much, in view of the fact the machines 
were running worse than other times. 

Q. Well, during the week that you earned $7.49, you had to 
stand up all the time, didn't you, in order to work? A. Always 
standing up. 

Miss Dreier : Do you pay any board to your sister ? 

The Witness: Pay in proportion; we all pay. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How many of you sleep in a room ? A. Two. 

Senator Wagner : How many of you live together ? 

The Witness : Six in three rooms. 

Q. And that is where they eat and live and everything else? 
A. Yes; eat, live, cook and sleep in one room. 

RosiE Chisevitch, an employee of the International Har- 
vester Company (Osborne Twine Works), called as a wit- 
ness but not sworn, testified as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Can you read ? A. I^o. 
Q. Can you write? A. No. 

Q. How long have you been working here ? A. Eight months. 
Q. Did you go to school in Poland ? Where did you come from ? 
A. From Russian Poland. 

Martha Bink, another employee, was asked to interpret 
for the witness, as follows: 

Q. Did you go to school there? A. No; no school at all. 
Q. Do you live with parents? A. Have not got any parents 
here. 



RosiE Chisevitch. 



359 



if 



A. No. 
A. Stand 



Q. Whom do yO|U live with ? A. She says she lives here alone, 
only her brother is out in Syracuse. 

Q. Don't you live with anybody ? Do you board ? A. Board 

here. 

Q. How much board do you pay? A. $3 a month and gets 

her own meals. 

Q. $3, and gets her own meals ? A. Yes. 

Q. With a family do you board ? A. Yes. 

Q. How did you come to work in Auburn in this factory ? A. 
She said her brother sent for her to come here. 

Q. And to work in this factory ? How did you come to work 
in tliis factory ? A. Her brother used to live here before he went 
to Syracuse. 

Q. How old are you ? A. Seventeen. 

Q. What room do you work in ? A. Balling room. 

Q. Do you push these big barrels of stuff around ? 

Q. Do you stand all day or sit down at your work ? 
all day. 

Q. What time do you get here in the morning ? A. Come here 
half past six in the morning. 

Q. Do you walk from home ? A. Yes. 

Q. How long does it take you to walk from home ? A. About 
ten min,utes. 

Q. What time do you get up in the morning? A. Half past 
five or six o'clock. 

Q. Do you make your own breakfast, or is that cooked for you 
by the people you live with ? A. Cooked in the house. 

Q. How long do you take for your lunch? A. About ten 
minutes. 

Q. Do you go home for launch ? A. No. 

Q. Bring it with you? A. Yes. 

Q. What time do you stop at night ? A. Six o'clock. 

Q. How much do you make a week? A. Sometimes $7, $7.50, 
$7 a week. 

Q. Do you get your own meals when you get home ? A. Yes. 

Q. Your dinner at night, your supper? A. Yes. 

Q. How many sleep in one room ? A. Sleep alone. 

Q. Do yO|U always make $7 or $8 ? Do you ever make as little 
as $5 a week ? A. If I ain't got any work I make that much. 



r 






1 



Ul 



860 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. Have you over been sick since you have been here? A. I 
was sick only two days since I work. 

Q. ])o your feet hurt you at night when you get home? A. 
My head aches lots, that is all. 

Q. Does it ache every night? A. J have headaches once in a 
while. 

Q. Do you have a backache ? A. No. 

Q. Is there dust in the place where you work, lots of dust? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Does it make yoiu cough or sneeze? A. No. 

Q. What do you do when you get home at night, after you have 
supper? A. Sit down and then go to sleep afterwards; don't 
do anything. 

Q. Is that a whole house where you board ? Does the family 
you board with have a whole house? A. The people live up- 
stairs; she lives upstairs and other people live downstairs. 

Q. Who washes your clothes for you ? A. The cook does. 

Q. You pay for it? A. Yes. 

By Senator Wagner : 

Q. You have got to buy your clothes and support yourself en- 
tirely on the money you make here, don't you ? A. Yes. 

Q. Is your mother living ? A. Mother is dead ; father living. 

Q. Were yon as pale as this when you came to this country ? 
A. Was always as pale as that. 

Q. Do you send any money to your people? A. Sometimes I 
do. 

Q. Did you work in the old country ? A. T was doing the work 
around the house. 

By Assemblyman Phillip : 

Q. Have you had a doctor since you have been here? A. I 
have had an examination here; all have had an examination hero 
for the work. 

Q. Did you have your hands hurt on the machinery? A. No; 
never hurt. 

Q. Who examined you ? A. Doctor Annstrong. 

Q. You have not been sick and gone to a doctor for that 
reason? A. No. 



Martha Bink. 



361 



By Miss Dreier: 

Q. Did yojU ever tell the doctor who examined you that you 
had headaches? A. No. 

Q. You have never told that? A. No. 

Senator Wagnkr: You stand all day long in your work, don't 
you? 

The Witness: Yes. 

Q. Is the floor slippery where you work? A. Yes. 

By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. When you went to the doctor was there an interpreter 
there? A. Yes. 

Q. Did the di>ctor say anything to you ? A. No. 

Q. Has the doctor given you any medicine? A. No. 

Dr. George M. Price, Director of Investigation, was then 
sworn as a witness, and testified as follows: 

Examination by Mr. Elkus: 

Q. You have examined this last girl ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What is she suffering with? A. She is suffering with a 
form of anaemia that is called chlorosis. 

Q. Is it produced by the work she does? A. Maybe so; I 
don't know. 

Q. Is it serious ? A. It is pernicious ; it grows worse and worse, 
and she is liable to sooner get a disease than anyone else. 

Q. What is it caused by, usually? In her case what would 
yOjU say the cause was ? A. Want of fresh air. 

Q. Is the room in which she works dark or light? A. Dark; 
down here (indicating). 

Martha Bink, an employee of the International Harvester 
Company (Osborne Twine Works), being duly sworn, 
testified as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Were you bom in this country ? A. Yes. 
Q. Polish descent? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. How old are you? A. I am 18. 



V'l 



3G2 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



. : ) 



Q. How long have you iK'eii working here in this factory ? A. 
About a year and a half. 

Q. And what do you do here ? A. I inspect. 

Q. You are an inspector? A. Yes. 

Q. Are you employed by the week or piece work ? A. By the 
day. 

Q. How much a day do you get? A. $1.35. 

Q. What time do yojU come here in the morning? A. Come 
here about five minutes to seven. 

Q. Leave at what time at night ? A. Six. 

Q. How much time do you get for lunch ? A. Half hour. 

Q. Do you inspect in any particular room ? A. The inspection 
room. 

Q. You inspect the work as it comes in ? A. Yes. 

Q. What do you do, look to see if it is perfect or broken, or 
what ? A. I have to look at it and see if it is perfect. 

Q. Do you have to handle it? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How many inspectors are there like you ? A. Just two of 
us. The third girl inspects the balls. 

Q. Who brings the work in to you ? A. There is a boy brings 
it in. 

Q. Drags it in? A. Yes. 

Q. I noticed women in the factory pulling around big piles of 
twine and also pushing those tall barrels with it; how many 
women do that? A. I don't know. 

Q. A number of them ? A. Yes. 

Q. How much do those weigh, do you know ? A. I don^t know ; 
I guess they weigh about 80 pounds. 

Q. Do you stand or sit down as you work ? A. Stand all day 
long. 

Q. Any seats? A. No. 

Miss Deeiek: You could sit, though, couldn't you? 

The Witness : No, 

Miss Dkeier : Could not sit down ? 

The Witness : No. 






Martha Bink. 



363 



Q. Could not sit down if you had a high chair ( A. No. 

Q. Well, how long do you take for your lunch? A. Half an 
hour. 

Q. Do you go home or take your lunch here ? A. Go home. 

Q. How far do you have to walk ? A. About ten minutes' walk. 

Q. That only gives you about ten minutes for your lunch ? A. 
No ; I have dinner about half an hour. I come in about a quarter 
of one every day. 

Q. Stop at 12 ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And before you were an inspector, what did you do here? 
A. Spinner. 

Q. And then you worked by the piece ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How do they pay you for spinning ? How are you paid 'i 
A. Seventeen cents. 

Q. Seventeen cents for what ? A. Per hundred pounds. 

Q. Did you stand up all day as you were spinning ? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. In between when the machinery was not working you could 
sit down?" A. Yes. When the machinery worked good I could 
sit down. 

Q. But usually you had to stand up ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Are you tired at night when you get home ? A. Sometimes 
I am. 

Q. Get headaches ? A. No, sir. 

Q. Any dust in your room where you work ? A. No. 
Q. Is it light or dark ? A. Light. 

Q. Well, they have to have it light so you can see the goods, 
don't they? A. Yes. 

Miss Dreier: Do your feet ache ? 

The Witness : Once in a while they do. 

Q. Swell up ? A. No. 

Q. Are any of the girls sick here, many of them sick ? A. Once 
in a while they are sick; there is quite a few out sick now. 

Q. Quite a few ; about how many ? A. I don't know. 

Q. What is the matter with them ? A. They have headaches 
and their feet ache them. 

Q. From standing up? A. Yes. 



364 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. And from the noise i^ A. Yes. 

Q. That is very hard work, don't you think it is ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You live home with your parents? A. Yes, sir. 

By Miss Dreiee: 

Q. You spoke of a doctor examining the girls ; is it a man or a 
woman ? A. A man. 

Q. Is he employed by the company ? A. ^'es. 

Q. How often does he examine the girls? A. Why, 1 think 
just about once, that is all. 

Q. Just as they come in ? A. Yes. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. That is for the Benefit Association, isnH it ? A. Yes. 
Q. You have to pay for it ? A. No ; we don't have to pay for it. 
Q. You don't have to pay in the Benefit Association ? A. Yes. 
Q. How much ? A. Two cents on the dollar. 
Q. You have to belong to it, do you ? A. Yes. 
Q. And they take two cents for every dollar you make? A. 
Yes. 

By Miss Dbeieb: 

Q. Do you get a vacation out of this fund ? A. Whenever we 
are sick or get hurt we get paid. 

Q. How much do you get paid when you are sick? A. Just 
about half what we make. 

Q. You have to be sick a week or two weeks before you get it ? 
A. Two weeks before we get it. 

Q. Then they pay you the back two weeks? A. One week. 
They don't pay you nothing the first week ; just the second week 
you are out they pay. 

Q. How long do they keep that up ? A. I think they keep it up 
only nine months. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Is the doctor paid out of this benefit money ? A. No. 
Q. Well, you don't know who pays him, do you? A. I don't 
know ; it is the company that has it. 
Q. They take care of it ? A. Yes, sir. 



Martha Bink. 



365 



Senator Wagner: I suppose you are one of the better paid 
girls here now, aren't you ? You make more than the girls who 
work at the spinning, and all that ? 

The Witness : Just about the same. 

Q. Well, you get paid by the day ? A. Yes. 

Q. How many girls are applying for work here every day, do 
you know ? A. I don't know. 

Q. Are there many girls looking for work here, or can they get 
all the girls they want ? A. They can get ahnost any girl at all to 

work. 

Q. Do they send out of town for girls, do you know ? A. No ; 

they never send out of town. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Well, you get $8 or $9 a week, don't you? A. Eight dol- 

hrs and ten cents. 

Q. None of these girls we had before us make that much money ; 
thej make between $5 and $7 for very hard work ; some say they 
can make seven dollars and some odd cents? A. They most 
generally make around $7. 

Q. They have harder work than you have, don't they? A. 

Just about the same. 

By Assemblyman Jackson : 

Q. You have to keep walking all the time ? A. Yes. 
Q. Inspecting twines? A. I have to carry the bobbins just 
about so far (indicating). 

Q. You inspect the work when it is on the bobbin, do you ? A. 

Yes. 

Q. Only two of you do all that work? A. Two inspect bob- 
bins, and one inspects balls. 

Q. You mean on each line of bobbins, as they are wound, that 

there are two girls to inspect ? A. Yes. 

Q. There are more than two inspectors in the factory, aren't 
there? A. Yes. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Do you know what night work the girls do ? A. They have 



366 



Minutes of Public Hbaeings. 



'I 



li 



1 1 



it harder because they keep more machines and make more pay. 
They make around $10 or $11 a week. 

Q. You say they have got to work harder than the day girls ? 
■A, x es. 

Q. They have to operate more machines ? A. They don't have 
to, but they do. 

Mr. Elkus : What do they get per hundred pounds at night ? 

The Witness : The same price as they do on day shift. 

Q. Do they have to operate more machines, like in the balling 
room ? Do they run two machines ? A. Two sets, four machines. 

Q. Well, that is awful hard work, isn't it? A. Yes- it is 
rather hard. ' 

Q. Do they work all night ? A. My sister-in-law works, and 
she IS always very tired every morning when she gets home. 
Q. What time does she start ? A. About half past six at night. 
Q. And works until what time ? A. Half past 5. 

Q. The next morning? A. Yes. And they only have half an 
hour for lunch. 

Q. Half an hour for supper; is that it? A. Not quite half an 
hour, because as soon as they eat their supper they get up and 
work. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How old is your sister-in-law ? A. She is around 28 or 30. 

Q. Is she married ? A. Yes. 

Q. She has how many children ? A. Two. 

Q. Who takes care of her children ? A. Her husband does at 
night. 

Q. Doesn't he work ? A. Yes. 

Q. Where does he work ? A. International Harvester Works. 
Q. Does he work here, too ? A. No ; he is a moulder. 
Q. Who takes care of the house in the day time, your sister? 
A. I don't know. 

Q. No body ? A. I don't go there, so I don't know. 
Q. How many children has she got ? A. Two. 
Q. How old are they ? A. One is 7, and the other is about 4. 
Q. Who takes care of the children in the day time ? A. She 
does, sometimes. 



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Lizzie Simial. 



367 



Q. How much sleep does she get ? A. One is on a vacation. 
Q. How much sleep does she get^ A. I don't know. 

Miss Deeiek: How long has she been working this way? 

The Witness: Ever since the night gang is on. 

Q. How long is that ( A. 1 think it is about four months. 

Q. And she, you say, is very tired when she gets home? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. And she goes right to bed ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you immediately go to bed every night after supper? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. What do you do ? A. Sit up and read the paper. 

Q. Then you go to ])ed ? A. Yes. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Then, these night girls have harder work than the day girls, 
because tliey operate four machines, whereas the day girls operate 
only two on the balling machine; is that right? A. Yes, sir, 
sometimes it is three. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q, How old are the women that work at night? A. All 
married women. 

Q. What are they, all Poles and Italians? A. Polish and 
Italians. 

Q. Anybody else here ? A. Russians. 

Q. Any American girls ? A. No. 

Q. Are you the only one born here in this country ? A. No, sir ; 
there is some more. 

Q. Did you work in any other place than this factory? A. I 
worked in the shoe shop. 

Q. What did you do there, sew shoes? A. Cement. 

Lizzie Simial, an employee of the International Harvester 
Company (Osborne Twine Works), being duly sworn, was 
examined through the Interpreter, as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Elkus : 

Q. How old are you ? A. Forty-two years old. 
Q. Are you married ? A. Yes. 



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Minutes of Public Hearings. 






Q. How many children have you ? A. Five. 

Q. How old are they ? A. One is working upstairs ; twenty-one 
years old. 

Q. Boy or girl i A. Girl. 

Q. Where are the others ? A. Out. 

Q. How old are the others, and are they boys or girls ? A. Girl 
twenty-one years of age, works here ; she is a spinner here. 

Q. Night or day work '( A. Day work. 

Q. Next ? A. Girl fourteen years of age ; she doesn't work. 

Q. She stays home ? A. She stays at home. 

Q. Next one? A. Another girl eleven years of age; she is in 
school. 

Q. Next one ? A. A boy eight years of age ; he stays home and 
goes to school. 

Q. Next one ? A. Another one six years of age, a girl ; goes to 
school. 

Q. Who takes care of the children at home ? A. The husband 
stavs at home. 

Q. Does the husband work ? A. No. 

Q. What is the matter with him ? A. He is sick, having caught 
rheumatism while on the railroad tracks working. 

Q. How long have you been in this country ? A. I am here 
twenty-one years. 

Q. How long have you been workino- at anything? A. Ten 
years. 

Q. How long have y(ju been working in this factory? A. Three 
years. 

Q. Where did yon work before you came here? A. T^efore I 
came here 1 worked for a year in another twine factory in this 
town. 

Q. How long have you been in Auburn ? A. I have always 
l>een here. 

Q. What work do you do in this factory ? A. In the spinning 
room. 

Q. How many machines do you attend ? A. Eight machines, 
sometimes nine. 

Q. Do you sit down or stand up during the day ? A. Standing 
up and walking all the day. 



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Lizzie Simial. 



369 



Q. All day ? A. Yes, all day. 

Q. What time do you come in the morning ^( A. Half past six. 

Q. Do you walk from your home ? A. Yes. 

Miss Dbeiek: Who gets the breakfast? 

The Witness: My husband. 

Q. What time do you get up ? A. Five o'clock. 

Q. How long do you take for your dinner and lunch ? A. One- 
half an hour. 

Q. Do you go home ? A. No ; I live too far. 

Q. What time do you stop at night ? A. Six o'clock. 

Q. Do you walk home ? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you make the supper when you get home, or does your 
husband make it ? A. When I get home he has it ready for me. 

Q. What do you do after supper ? Go to bed ? A. I rest, be- 
cause I am tired. 

Q. Do your feet hurt ? A. Yes ; always on my feet. 

Q. And does your back hurt you ? A. No. 

Q. Headaches? A. No. 

Q. ]s there dust in your room? A. A good deal. 

Q. Do you cough or sneeze ? A. No. 

Q. Ever been sick ? A. No. 

Q. Never? A. Yes, sometimes. 

Q. How much do you make a week? A. Sometimes $6, $7, 
sometimes $7.50 per week. 

Q. Is the floor in the room where you work, slippery ? A. Yes, 
once in a while. 

Q. Do you ever fall down ? A. Not yet ; I have slipped but not 
fallen. 

Q. Did you ever burn your hands ? A. No. 

Q. Do you work hard? Is it hard work? A. Sometimes ma- 
chines all right, it be all right; sometimes no right, very hard. 

Q. Are you tired every night ? A. Always tired. 

Miss Dreier: Are you tired in the morning when you wake 



up 



The Witness : I feel well in the mornings. 
Q. Do you get enough to eat ? A. Sometimes. 



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Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. Who does the family washing? A. My husband. 
William M. Greig, being duly sworn, testified as follows: 
Direct examination by Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Mr. Greig, what position do you hold in the International 
Harvester (Company ? A. Superintendent of the Twine Mills. 

Q. And this is called the Osborne Twine Works, what number ? 
A. Number three. 

Q. And you have been superintendent for how long ? A. About 
a year, of this plant. 

Q. And were you employed by the International Harvester 
Company before ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. In this same plant ? A. In this same plant. 

Q. In what position ? A. Assistant. 

Q. How long were you assistant superintendent ? A. About six 
years. 

Q. And that is practically when the company was taken over 
by the International Harvester Company? A. Well, they have 
had it about seven years, as near as I can recollect. 

Q. Where is the main office to which you report? A. In 
Chicago. 

Q. And who is the president of the company ? A. Cyrus Mc- 
Cormick. 

Q. Who is vice-president ? A. Charles Deering, I believe. 

Q. And who is the secretary or treasurer? A. Harold Micr 
Cormick. 

Q. And the treasurer ? A. Harold McCormick. 

Q. Do you know who the directors are ? A. Well, there are so 
many of them. 

Q. Have you got a paper out in the office that has them on? 
A. Yes; I believe I could give them to you (witness goes to the 
office and returns with a memorandum). Charles Deering is vice- 
president, as near as we can find, and James Deering is vice-presi- 
dent, and Mr. Jones is vice-president, and Harold McCormick is 
treasurer and secretary, and Mr. Perkins is director and Mr. 
Morgan and Mr. Gleason and Mr. Jones. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. What is Morgan's name ? A. J. P., I guess. 



William M. Greig. 



371 



Q. What is Perkins' first name ? A. I don't know. George W., 
isn't it? 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Have they ever been here, any of the directors in your com- 
pany ? A. The Deerings have been here ; the McCormicks have 
been here several times. 

Q. Is Medill McCormick a director too ? A. No, I don't think 
he is. 

Q. Has he ever been here ? A. Not to my knowledge. 
Q. But the other McCormicks have been here? A. Yes; 
Harold and Cyrus have been. 

Q. What relation is Harold to Medill? A. I don't know; I 
think nothing. 

Q. How many people do you employ in the day shift? A. 
About 400. 

Q. How many men and how many women ? A. I would have 
to dig into that ; we probably have 300 women. 

Q. And they are all foreigners, aren't they? A. The majority; 
we have got a few Americans and some of all nations. 

Q. How long is it you have been employing these Italians and 
Polish girls here ? A. Since I am in Auburn, that is seven years 
ago ; seven years. 

Q. And are the men also foreigners ? A. Mostly, yes, sir. 

Q. What do the men do ? A. They run the heavy machines 
and do the heaviest work we have. 

Q. Do you employ any children under sixteen ? A. No, sir. 

Q. You run a night shift as well as a day shift ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How many people do you employ at night ? A. About 200. 

Q. How many men and how many women? A. About 160 
women on nights. 

Q. And fifty men ? A. Yes. 

Q. Are all the women on night shift married? A. No; there is 
quite a few of them are married. 

Q. How many are married ? A. I don't know ; pretty hard to 
tell. I know considerable of them are married, particularly at 
nights. 

Q. Will you explain to the Commission, Mr. Greig, briefly, just 
what the work consists of? The raw material comes in from 



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Minutes of Public Hearings. 



South America, doesn't it 'i A. From Mexico. And passes through 
eight different machines. 

Q. Go right on and explain it to us. Who handles it, men or 
women 'i A. The first three heavy machines are handled by men. 

Q. What do they do? A. They simply open up the hemp and 
three men put it in the machine and one man takes it out in a con- 
tinuous strand; that is weighed and passes on to another lighter 
machine operated by men; then it goes from that machine to 
another machine a little lighter than the first ; then it passes from 
that to further light machines where the women take it, and down 
the line to five more machines on light work. 

Q. What is all done, spinning? A. That is all preparing. 

Q. Combing? A. Just simply combing and straightening out. 

Q. Are the men paid by the day, week or piece ? A. By piece. 

Q. How much do they receive? A. Of course, different jobs 
is different prices. 

Q. What is the highest and what is the lowest ? A. The lowest 
is about $9.50; the highest in that department is about $2.25 a 
day. 

Q. That is for skilled mechanics? A. No; those are all 
laborers. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Nine dollars and fifty cents a week ? A. Yes. 
Q. You said in one case a weekly rate and one a day date ? A. 
Yes ; all right. 

Miss; Dreikr: That is this department (indicating)? 
The Witness : It is piece wages in that department. 
By Mr. Elk us: 

Q. Are they paid by the hundred pounds? A. The first five 
machines are paid by hundred pounds. 

Q. How much per hundred pounds ? A. That depends on dif- 
ferent machines. I could get all the rates. 

Q. Then it goes to the girls, does it ? A. Yes. 

Q. And they begin combing it? A. And they begin combing 
it on the same kind of a machine, only a lighter machine. 

Q. Who carries it from the heavy machine to the lighter ma- 
chine ? A. The operators themselves. 



William M. Greio. 



373 



Q. The men or women ( A. The men and women. 

Q. Both ? A. Yes. 

Q. Are these put in barrels or just piled up? A. Piled up. 

Q. How much do those piles weigh? A. On the first machine 
we endeavor to start that feed up to 115 pounds. 

Q. And the second one? A. About IGO poimds. 

Q. And the third ? A. About the same. 

Q. And those are the piles which the women and men carry, 
drag from one machine to the other ? A. Yes. 

Q. They only have got to go a few steps ? A. Yes. 

Q. How much do they weigh ? A. One hundred and fifteen to 
160 pounds. 

Q. Then as they go through the combing machines, the girls 
stand there and attend the machines ? A. Attend the machines. 

Q. Then, after they go through the first combing machine, do 
they go through another one ? A. Exactly. 

Q. Still lighter? A. Yes, still lighter; until they get down to 
eight. 

Q. The girls attend all these combing machines after the third ? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Now, after the eight combing machines, what becomes of it ? 
A. We put it in cans, paper cans, and it is taken to what we call 
our spinners, who simply put it up around a machine and spin it 
into twine. 

Q. Who takes these paper cans from the eight combing ma- 
chines to the spirming machines ? A. We have got men that cart 
that. 

Q. Drag it ? A. No, put it in a cart and cart it. 

Q. Coming through the mill, I thought I saw girls pushing 
these big paper cans ? A. Yes. 

Q. They do carry them, too ? A. No, just push them along the 
floor. 

Q. How much do they weigh? A. Average 40 pounds of the 
raw material. 

Q. And after they get to the spinning room, how many proc- 
esses does it go through, one spinning, two or three spinnings? 
A. Just ona 

Q. That is attended to by girls ? A. Yes. 



374 



Minutes of Public Heabings. 



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Q. Tlien what ib done after that ? A. Then it passes from the 
spinners to the bailers. 

Q. Then it is wound around a ball? A. Wound around a 
spindle and forms a ball. 

Q. You have women attending to tliat? A. Yes; women do 
that. 

Q. Then it is ready to be shipped 'i A. No, then after that we 
weigh it. 

Q. Yes ? A. We have a scale there that the girl puts 10 balls 
on the scale and it has to weigh a certain amount, whatever kind 
of goods we are making, then there is a man comes along and 
inspects it, then as he goes forward again the man ties it ,up and 
it goes from that to a '' pajer-off " or yard scale and weighed, and 
from that to a conveyor to the warehouse, and is ready for ship- 
ment. 

Q. These girls who comb and spin are paid by the hundred 
pounds, aren't they? A. Mostly the spinners are paid by the 
hundred pounds, and the girls in the lower end of this room are 
paid by revolution ; the girls in the first part of this room are 
paid by the hundred pounds. 

Q. What do you mean, so many revolutions of the machinery ? 
A. Yes. 

Q. How much do they get per revolution ? A. Well, there are 
different prices ; T can give you them all ; they are in the office. 

Q. Can you send me a list of the prices paid for that work ? 
A. Yes, sir, I certainly can. Of the whole works you mean ? 

Q. Yes ? A. Now, all you want is the piece work rates. This 
woman who will be here knows all that and will explain the whole 
thing to you. 

Q. Now, Mr. Greig, the night work is the same work generally, 
except on a smaller scale ? A. Yes. 

Q. Do the women at night attend to more machines than in 
the day time? Ji. No; just identically the same. 

Q. They only attend to a double sei ? A. No. 

Q. They make more money, don't they, working nights? A. 
I will tell you how we arrange that; we give them a seventeen 
per cent, increase on their wages. 

Q. For working at night ? A. What they get on the day shift. 



William M. Gbeig. 



375 



The day shift is ten hours work and the night shift is ten hours 
work with practically twelve hours wages. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Are yO|U sure they don't operate four of those balling ma- 
chines at night time? A. Not if foreman knows it, although 
sometimes they may do it if foreman's back is turned, on piece 
work. 

Q. You are not here, of course ? A. Sometimes I am evenings, 
for an hour. 

Q. How many hours at night, 12 hours work ? A. Ten hours. 

By Mr. Elkus; 

Q. How many hours in the day time? A. Ten hours. 

Q. When do they b^in in the morning ? A. Seven o'clock. 

Q. When do they stop? A. Twelve. 

Q. That is for how long ? A. That is for 50 minutes, for noon ; 
and from ten min,utes to one to six. 

Q. And the night shift begins when ? A. Seven in the evening 
and works until twelve, midnight, and starts at half-past twelve, 
midnight, and stops about half past five in the morning. A day 
consists of ten hours. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. Do you have the machines stop at the lunching hour? A. 
Yes. 

Q. And do you have it stopped for a full half hour ? A. Some- 
times not ; we don't ask anyone to go to work at all. 

Q. But they can ? A. They can if they are inclined that way. 

Assemblyman Phillips. — And you permit it ? 

The Witness. — We don't tolerate it at all, although they some- 
times will. You see, we have to get speed up and mostly you will 
see them starting up a little ahead of times at noon. 

By Mr. Elkus; 

Q. And you will see often they begin at half past six in the 
morning? A. Not quite so early as that. 



\ 



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Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. Are you here at half past six ? A. Sometimes 20 minutes of 
seven, or 10 minutes of seven. 

Q. The floors are very slippery. That is from the material 
with which the floor is dressed? A. Exactly. 

Q. Isn't is possible to remove that ? A. No. 

Q. Yqu have a good many accidents from the girls slipping, 
don't you? A. Not very many. 

Q. You had one this month, didn't you ? A. We may have one 
a month, or sometimes none a month. 

Q. You have a matron here? A. Yes. 

Q. The company pays for her? A. Yes. 

Q. And you have a benefit society ? A. We have. 

Q. And you deduct from each employee's wages a certain 
amount for the benefit society ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That is compulsory, is it? A. Yes; well, no, it is not ex- 
actly compulsory, b|Ut we are all in it. 

Q. You deduct it ? A. We don't take it unless they are in it 

Q. Can they stay if they don't take it ? A. Yes ; what — there 
is some here that ain't in it, some here that don't want to go in, 
and we don't compel them, but we like to see them in there for 
their own good. 

Q. I call your attention to personal injury report of January 
17, 1912, in which it says that somebody named Mary — 
Dabisky? was injured at 6.45 a. m. on that day. That would 
show that she had been working ? A. How did she get injured ? 

Q. (Reading) I was picking some waste from chain shaft and 
caught my thumb between sprocket and chain. Evidently the 
machinery was going? A. Yes. 

Q. That would rather contradict your statement that they don't 
work before 7 o'clock? A. No, I didn't say that; I said some- 
times they do. 

By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. So, sometimes they work about 11 hours a day? A. No; 
they could not do that if they tried to. 

Q. They might work pretty close to eleven hours a day? A. 
No. Here to-day at noon, if you were there, our engines did not 
start up until 20 minutes to and we started 10 minutes to. 



William M. Greig. 



377 



Q. What time did they do that yesterday ; what time did they 
start yesterday? A. I was not here; I just came back from my 
vacation this morning. 

Q. Don't they start the same hour every day? A. Depends on 
what has got to be done in the engine room. Sometimes we start 
10 minutes before, the engine, sometimes 8 minutes, sometimes 5. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Mr. Greig, that balling work, the work on the balling ma- 
chine, is rather heavy work for women to do, isn't it? A. Well, 
of course, it is kind of hard, but it is — 

Q. (Interrupting) Do you not — A. (Interrupting) It is 
much better than it used to be. We have cut down one-third on 

the work. 

Q. That may be true, but isn't it rather heavy work for women 
to do ? A. Welh I would not say it was for good healthy strong 
women. 

Q. For a good strong healthy woman? A. Yes, I would not 

say it was. 

Q. For the ordinary woman, however, it would be? A. The 
ordinary woman could do that work easily. 

Q. You think it is easy work, do you? A. No, I would not 
say it was easy work, either. 

Q. Take any kind of work women are doing other than on these 
balling machines ? A. I should think work in the fields would be 
harder. 

Q. You think so? A. Yes. 

Q. These women stand all day long, don't they ? A. They can 
sit down if they feel like it. 

Q. There are no seats there? A. They can sit on bobbins. 

Q. They can sit on the floor, you mean? A. No, on bobbins, 
that is at least 12 inches high. 

Q. The bobbins are 12 inches high from the floor? A. Yes. 

Q. They could not operate — They could not sit on these 
bobbins and operate the machine? A. They could sit on the 
bobbins and watch the machine work. 

Q. Can they work as fast that way ? A. Yes, the machine is 
going. 



378 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



i: 1 

II M 



11- 



,:t 



Q. You take the ball off and start the machine up and they have 
to wait until the machine makes the ball ? A. Yes. 

Q. As a matter of fact, none of them do sit down ? A. Thej 
don't sit down ? Yes. 

Q. Be perfectly frank with me? A. Yes. 

Q. The reason your company employs these women to do this 
work that I have just referred to is because it is cheaper labor 
than the men, isn't it ? A. No; I don't agree with you there at all. 

Q. Isn't that one of the reasons? A. No; I know it is not, 
not so far as this twine mill is concerned. 

Q. In your talk to me only an hour or so ago, didn't you say 
to me that was one of the reasons you used women ? A. I don't 
know; I don't think I did; maybe I did. 

Q. My recollection is very clear that you did ? A. This balling 
and this spinning and preparing that material, the girls are better 
adapted to it than men. 

Q. Better than men ? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you want to go on record as telling this Commission that 
the reason you employ women to do this very, in my judgment, 
heavy work, is because they do it better than men ? A. I do, yes, 
sir; most decidedly. It has been proven and tried. 

Q. Why can they do it better ? A. The woman is quicker. She 
is smarter. 

By Mr. Elkus; 

Q. You admit you would have to pay men more for doing the 
same work even tho,ugh they did not do it as well ? A. We would. 

Q. Is it necessary to do night work ? A. It is absolutely neces- 
sary at the present time. 

Q. How long have you been paying wages at the present scale, 
since you have been here ? A. You mean — 

Q. (Interrupting) The pay? A. The extra compensation for 
night work ? 

Q. No; wages? A. The present rate? 

Q. Yes ? A. Since I am in town, almost seven years. 

Q. There has been no increase?' A. There has been a little 
increase here and there. 

Q. When was that? A. Well, we increased on some of the 
pieces, probably 6 or 8 months ago. 



L 



WiLTviAi\f M. Greig. 379 

Q. Was that for men or women ? A. For men. 
Q. Not for women? A. No. 

By Assemblyman Jackson : 

Q. Has the piece work system been in vogue here since you 
have been hero ? A. No ; that has been in vogue all over the mill 
— probably six and a half years ago they put the piece work sys- 
tem in parts of the mill. 

Q. You have no blowers or ventilators here; you have only 
natural ventilation ? A. Natural ventilation. 

Q. I noticed a number of your rooms are dark. There is 
nothing about the manufacturing that requires them to be dark, 
is there? A. No, sir. 

Q. Simply because there is no light ? A. Simply because there 
is none there. I think vou will find the cellar a little dark, but 
we are working on that for ventilation. 

Q. I noticed the dust in the air and the women all wear caps 
and are pretty well covered with dust ? A. Yes, we supply those 
caps. 

Q. Have you exhausts to take away the dust from the machines ? 
A. Not at present 

By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. Yqu know the law requires it? A. Yes. 

Q. Why haven't you done it ? A. We are experimenting at one 
of our plants in Chicago, and as soon as they perfect it, we will 
supply it to all mills belonging to the International Harvester 
Company. 

Q. We found from these women here, in asking them how 
they are paid, that, they don't know at all, they didn't know how 
they were paid ; they knew they got so much money each week, 
and it varied, and they could not explain how they were paid. 
Can you explain that ? A. No ; probably — well, you had an 
interpreter, didn't you ? 

Q. Yes, we had an interpreter, and they didn't know. A. 
Well, you saw the class of laborers we have. 

Bv Senator Wagner : 

c 

Q. Why do you employ that class of labor? A. Beca,use we 
can't get anything else. 



380 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



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Q. Why ? A. Because there is a scarcity of labor. 

Q. I know lots of factories in which women of different classes 
are working; why can't you get such a class? A. Because they 
are not in town. 

Q. Because they are not of that class in this town ? A. There 
are women in this town, but they are probably a little better oif. 

Q. Better off ? A. They don't have to do this kind of work. 

Q. They won't work for this amount of money, you mean ? A. 
We pay better money in this mill than they do in any department 
store in Auburn, or any factory in A,uburn. 

Q. You mean for the same class of work ? A. There are only 
the two plants, that is this mill and the Columbia Twine C^ompany. 

Q. They pay the same wages ? A. About the same. 

Q. You admit, in view of the kind of work and the conditions 
under which it is done, that it is difficult for you to get any kind 
of labor except what you term a poor grade, unintelligent labor 
and foreigners? A. I admit this is the only kind we can jret, 
beca,use it is the only kind in Auburn. 

By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. You say there are no other women that are capable? A. 
Yes, but their parents are pretty well fixed, as it were. 

Q. There is no intermediate class ? A. No ; there is only the 
department stores and the like of this work. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How do you get these girls to work, do you advertise or do 
you bring them over from Europe? A. No, sir; I — 

Q. (Interrupting) How do you get them ? A. We just simply 
have a gate here and when they apply for work, when we need 
them, we take them in. 

Q. You have plenty of applications? A. Not at present. 

Q. How long has that been so? A. About two months. We 
have more places than we can fill. 

Q. Up to that time you had plenty of help ? A. Yes. 

Q. What is the reason for the change? A. We don't know. 

Q. Have they gone elsewhere to work? A. Quite a few went 
fo the old country. 



William M. Greig. 



381 



Q. Went back? A. Quite a few got married. 
Q. Well, you have plenty of married women here, haven't you ? 
A. We have a considerable number of married women on both 

shifts. 

Q. On both shifts ? A. Yes. 

By Assemblyman Jackson : 

Q. How long have you been running this same number of 
people? A. Since December last. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Do you know what they pay in the department stores here? 
You said yc^u paid better than they ? A. About four dollars ; three 
to four dollars a week. 

Q. Do you know that of your own knowledge? A. No; only 
from hearsay; but I know we are paying as good wages as any 
department store in Auburn. 

By Assemblyman Jackson : 

Q. You don't compare a girl in a department store with a 
girl on these balling machines? A. Well, they are making 

double money. 

Q. When was this factory last inspected by the Labor Depart- 
ment? A. About 8 or 9 weeks ago, by a gentleman named Mr. 
Ireland, I think. 

Q. Did he find any violations here ? A. No ; he didn't speak 

of any. 

Q. When was it before that, if you know? A. That I co.uld 

not say. 

Q. A year or two? A. He was here — he came through before 

that. 

Q. A year or two before that ? A. No, he was here — he comes 
about every two or three months. 

Q. Did he say anything about the dust? A. Yes, and I told 
him just what I told you gentlemen, that they were working on 
them in Chicago, and as soon as perfected, they would be adopted 
in all factories of the International Company. 

Q. Mr. Greig, when the women come in the morning after 7 
o'clock, what is done with them ? A. After 7 ? 



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382 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. Yes. Thej are kept out until noon, arenH they ? A. No 
we let them in at 8 o'clock or before. * ' 

Q. At 8 ? A. Yes. And we have let them in on rainj days 
or m bad weather we keep the gate open. 

Q. The first time the gate is open after 7 o'clock, is 8 ? A. Yes. 

Q. Then it is not open again until noon? A. Yes; 12 o'clock.* 

Q. S,uppose they come after the noon hour late, what happens ? 
A. Well, I have never known one to come after the noon hour; it 
is usually in the morning. 

Q. The women testifying here said, if they got Bere after 7 
they had to wait until noon ? A. That is not so. 

Q. But it is to 8 o'clock ? A. At 8 o'clock we let them in, or 
a quarter of 8, so they will be at work at 8. 

Q. Tf they come here at half past 7 ? A. We let them in 
any way. 

Q. They start to work at 7 o'clock ? A. Yes ; that is our tima 
Q. You don't prevent them from working between 12 and 1 ? 
A. No. 

Q. And as a matter of fact, they do work between 1 2 and 1 ? 
A. Probably one or two here and there does, after the engine 
starts up. 

Q. You have a number of married women with children who 
work here at night, as well as the day time. Do you think thnt 
IS a good thing for married women with children to work here 
from half past 6 to half past 5 next morning at the kind of work 
they do here ? A. Well, married people, they like that 

Q. You don't think it is a good thing, do you ? A. That is 
where we get most of the married women on night work. 

Q. Yon say that is a proper thing ? A. I wish we had a few 
more of them. 

Q. On the part of the company, you like it, but on the part 
of the married woman herself, don't you think it would be a goo.1 
thing if she was prevented ? A. No ; I don't think the night work 
IS worse than day work. 

Q. Do you think it good for women with children two years 
old up to ten 1x> work from 6 in the evening until 5 the next 
morning? A. The husband is at home. 



William M. Greig. 



383 



Q. He works day times and she works at night ? A. As a rule, 
Polish men don't work ; they mind the children. 

Q. I suppose this is all regulated by the home office, about 
working at night shifts and day shifts ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. It is not your work? A. No. 

Q. And that is decided by the board of directors ? A. Decided 
by our manager, Mr. Rice. 

Q. He acts under the board of directors or officers? A. Yes. 

Q. And the board of directors prescribe who shall be employed, 
the general character of the employment and wages and all that 
sort of thing ? A. No. 

Q. Who does that? A. The local management. 

Q. And you report these things in writing? A. Yes. 

Q. How often do you report to the home office? A. We send 
a daily report to the managers. 

Q. Showing practically everything that happens ? A. Yes, 
practically everything in the line of twine made and shipped and 
cost and everything. 

Q. Are accidents more frequent in the night time than the day 
time ? A. I would not say that. 

Q. Considering you have half the number of people at night? 
A. Yes; I am taking that into consideration. Sometimes we get 
along smoothly without any, and then we have accidents here and 
there. 

By Senator Wagner; 

Q. Looking over the accident reports, I found more were 
happening in the night than in the day time ? A. You might for 
a few days stretch see it. 

Q. Did I understand you to say that night work is just as 
good and healthy as day work? A. Just as good and just as 
healthy. The work is just the same and the wages are about the 
same. They haven't got any more to do on nights than days, and 
we have a woman looking after the welfare of them on night shifts, 
as well as day shifts. 

Q. On this report on file a girl was injured going from one 
machine to the other, and I was also informed by one of the wit- 
nesses here, that at night the girls work four machines instead of 



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Minutes of Public Hearings. 



j:1 



ii. 1 




two, that in the day time they worked two machines, but that in 
the night time they worked four ? A. Probably they do the same 
thing on the night shift if the foreman's back is turned, they will 
start up another machine next to her to make a little more money, 
if his back is turned. 

Q. You think a good many of them do that on night shift ? A. 
No, I don't think so, because the foreman won't allow it; but they 
are liable to do it. 

Q. That is, the wages are so low, they have to work hard, take 
every opportunity to work overtime, and work under very great 
pressure to make something out of it? A. No, sir; the wages are 
good. 

Q. What do you call good? What do they make? A. From 
$8 up. 

Q. The averages? A. Yes, sir. Some of them, probably a new 
girl might not make $8, but some of them make up to $10, her 
wages isn't low. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. They make as low as $5 a week, don't they? A. That is 
new girls until they catch on. 

Q. Isn't the average about $0 a week? A. The average is 
higher than that, I should judge. 

Q. The girls who were here said the highest they make is $7.14 
a week, then they had to work every minute, they say ? 

By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. You are sure they average more than $6 a week ? A. I am 
pretty sure they do. 

Q. How long have you been working the women at night ? A. 
Since December. 

Q. Is it recently that you have had difficulty in getting enough 
help? A. Just recently, the last two months. 

Q. Now, you say that married women are more willing to work 
at night than in the day time ? A. They are. 

Q. Now then, isn't it due to your difficulty in getting labor and 
the fact that married women will work at night, that you have 
recently started your plant with women working nights ? A. No, 
sir; we always worked women nights. 



William M. Greig. 



385 



Q. You said you started in December? A. Yes; this season. 

Q. Have you had women working nights right along for the 
seven years you have been here ? A. Certainly. Not every year 
though. We worked here two years ago one month. 

Q. Night work ? A. Yes. 

Q. So you really commenced last December working nights as 
a regular thing? A. Yes. 

Q. What work is done in the cellar where the girls work ? A. 
Spinning. 

Q. How many girls are in the cellar ? A. About fourteen or 
fifteen, I should judge. 

Q. If you find a condition up there that you deem dangerous or 
bad, have you power or authority to change it ? A. Certainly. 

Q. You don't have to write to Chicago? A. No, sir. 

Q. I notice out there that you have line shafting? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. It makes a great deal of noise ? A. Yes. 

Q. And keeps the dust in motion? A. Yes. 

Q. You don't have individual motors at all? A. No, sir; not 
at present. 

Q. You know that would remove the noise, also the dust ? A. 
Yes. 

Q. Why don't you do it? A. It would remove some of the 
noise, but would not remove the dust. 

Q. Keep the dust from going into circulation all the time ? A. 
Yes. 

Q. Why don't you do that ? A. We are doing it. 

Q. When? A. Right now. 

Q. Getting it started ? A. Yes, sir. One engine will be here 
in two weeks or less. All where you see that dust is electrified 
in less than two weeks. The motors are up now if you notice. 

Q. Who issued the order ? A. The management. 

Q. They came from Chicago? A. They came from Chicago 
with the recommendation of the local authorities. 

Miss Dbeier: I understood that early in the testimony you 
said it was necessary to work at night. Now you tell us it is 
really only since December you began to work at night ? A. Just 
this season. 

Vol. Ill — 13 



386 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Ill 



Q. You said two years ago you worked one montli? A. We 
did, according to orders. 

Q. What is the reason for this night work when you haven't 
been doing it in past years except for a month or so ? A. The 
reason is because we get orders for twine that we can't fill, that 
we have to work nights to fill tJie orders. 

Q. You have had more orders of late? A. That is the idea. 
When I said December, I meant commenced this season in De- 
cember. 

By Miss Drier : 

Q. Two years ago you only worked one month ? A. Yes. 

Q. And last year how much did you work ? A. I could not tell 
you how much ? We worked a little, but I don't know how long. 

Q. A few days ? A. More than that. We would not start for 
less than a month. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. You said you did put in these motors at the suggestion or 
orders of the local authorities. What did you mean, the board of 
health ? A. 'No ; I meant the management here in Auburn. 

Q. Your management ? A. Yes. 

Q. No outside authority ? A. No, 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. Do you consider the bobbins as seats ? A. No. 

Q. Well then, you are disobeying the law, are you not, by not 
providing seats for the women ? A. We have seats for all women 
in the spinners except the bailers, and we are going to put in 
seats for those. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Isn't that much harder work than the spinning work? A. 
The bailer is harder than the spinner or run, because the spinner 
can walk around and have more territory. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. What percentage of the products is represented by the labor ? 
A. What do you mean ? 



^i ' 



William M. Greig. 



387 



Q. The value of the labor. What percentage of the cost of 
what you produce is represented by labor ? A. I would have to 
dig into that. 

Q. Can you give me any idea? A. ]S"o; I would have to dig 
into the statistics. 

By Assemblyman Jackson : 

Q. What is the price of your output as you sell it ? A. As we 
sell it ? 

Q. Yes. A. Of course, that is another department; I could 
not tell you much about it. It fluctuates you know, probably 
about seven or eight cents a pound. Of course, that is another de- 
partment, you know, and we don't hear a thing of what they buy 
or what they sell it at unless we read about it the same as you 
would read it, in the papers. 

Q. How much output are these girls capable of to earn $7 ? A. 
That depends upon what machine they are working on. If I 
knew I could tell you. 

Q. I mean the balling machines ? A. About 2,000 pounds. 

Q. Earning $7 a week? A. Seven dollars to $7.50. 

Q. Didn't you begin the night work, really, for the purpose of 
getting these married people and giving them a chance to work at 
nights, those who can't work in the day time ? A. No, sir. We 
began the night work for the simple reason our orders were away 
ahead of us. 

By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. If you paid more wages you could get help ? A. We had to 
do something to supply the demand. We are paying more. 

Q. Have you increased the rate? If you increased the rate 
you could get more people, couldn't you ? A. I do not think we 
can ; no, sir. They are not in Auburn ; they are not in town. 

Q. They would come if you increased the rate? A. Where 
would they come from ? 

Q. Where do people come from, generally? There are people 
all around you ? A. That is true ; but they are either all afraid 



m 



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388 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



of slackness or afraid of labor, the men and women, and so far as 
capacity is concerned, the force we got — 

By Senator Wagneb: 

Q. (Interrupting.) You have not increased the wages of the 
women doing this manual work for six or seven years, I under- 
stand ; is that true ? A. No ; I said we put part of the mill on 
piece work at that time, and since then we put it all on, and since 
then piece work means women labor. 

Q. You started piece work six and one-half years ago ; is that 
right ? A. That is part of the mill ; yes, sir. 

Q. You paid a certain rate? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, that rate has not changed in the six and one-half 
vears ; has it ? A. Some of it, here and there. 

Q. Well, speaking generally, has it changed? A. We made a 
change here and a change there. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Only the men ? A. I am speaking of men and women too. 

Q. I understood you to say you made no change in the women ? 
A. Well, we changed on the machines. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Generally speaking, would you call it a change ? Hasn't 
it been practically the same wages ? A. No. 

Q. Tell us the change? A. We increased the rates in some 

cases. 

Q. When ? A. I could not tell you when ; I could tell, probably 

by looking it up. 
Bv Mr. Et.kus: 

fl 

Q. I wish you would look it up and let us know. A. I could 
do that, but it will take a little time. I can't keep that all in 
mind ; I will have to look it up. 

By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. You say that orders come in more frequently lately. Do 
the orders come here or go to Chicago ? A. Chicago. 

Q. Then Chicago sends them out. You have got other factories 
doing the same kind of work in the country ? A. Yes, sir. 



William M. Gbeig. 



389 



Q. How does Chicago determine which factory it will send 
orders to? A. Well, we have got a sales department there that 
gets all the orders in and they distribute it all over the mills and 
keep track of what each mill has. 

Q. Why do they send you more orders than you can handle? 
A. Because they have too much coming in. 

Q. Isn't that due to labor ? A. No, sir. 

Q. If you are able to work women nights they will send work 
here? A. (No answer.) 

Q. Do they work women nights in the other plants ? A. Yes. 

Q. How long have they been working them there? A. Since 
Dec*ember, some time we started. 

Q. These women would not work in the day-time, then? A. 
Yes, they would, no doubt, but most of the married women prefer 
the night work. 

Q. You have to pay them more to get them here in the day-time ? 
A. No, we don't. 

Q. You would have to? A. No, we would not; we never 
change our rates in that line. 

By Senator Wagner: 

(}. You say the married women prefer to have the night work ? 
A. Yes, because they can do a little housework in the morning; 
that is my opinion. 

Q. I understood that to be your opinion, that is true. I asked 
you if that is one of the reasons you put a night shift on, because 
you could get these married women to work? A. No; the main 
reason for operating the night shift is the increased orders. 

Q. I am not asking foi^ the main reason ; but the fact is, you 
can get these women at night time, the married women; is that 
one of the reasons for your having night work ? A. No, I don't 
think it is. We get the orders here to make a certain kind of 
twine and we have to work the two shifts to supply the orders. 



390 



Minutes of Public Heabings. 



i> 



' 



Hearing of the State Factory Investigating Commission, 
Held at the Plant of the Geneva Preserving Company, 
'N, Y., August 14, 1912. 

Present: 

Hon. Egbert F. Wagner, Chairman, 
Hon. Edward D. Jackson. 
Hon. Cyrus W. Phillips. 
Miss Mary E. Dreier. 

Appearances: 

Hon. Abram I. Elkus, Counsel to the Commission. 
Bernard L. Shientag, Esq., Assistant Counsel. 

Edwin S. Thorn, being duly sworn, testified as follows : 
Direct examination by Mr. Elkus : 

Q. What is the name of your company ? A. Geneva Preserving 
Company. 

Q. What officer are you of it ? A. Treasurer and manager. 
Q. Who is president ? A. Irving Ross, Rochester. 
Q. Who is vice-president ? A. Henry A. Wheat, Geneva. 
Q. And you are manager and treasurer ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Who is secretary ? A. Mr. Beekman E. Ross, Geneva. 
Q. What is your capital stock ? A. $100,000. 
Q. How long have you been in business? A. Twenty-three 
years. 

Q. And is this your only plant, this plant here ? A. We have 
one other. 

Q. Where is it ? A. Waterloo. 

Q. And what do you pack, what v^etables? A. Nearly all 
the vegetables and fruits that are usually packed, except tomatoes ; 
we haven't been packing tomatoes, but we will start some this year. 

Q. Beans, peas, com, pumpkins and squash? A. Yes. 

Q. What else? A. All kinds of fruits, that is, pineapple, 
cherries, strawberries, raspberries, blackberries, gooseberries, 
plums, pears, peaches, apples, quinces, elderberries, currants; 
practically everything. 

Q. And when does your season begin ? A. Early part of June, 
usuallv. 



Edwin S. Thoen. 



391 



Q. What do you begin with, peas? A. No; usually pineapple 
and rhubarb. 

Q. Do they grow pineapple up here, or do you buy it ? A. We 
buy it in New York ; we don't do much of that. 

Q. Do you grow rhubarb here? A. That is grown on contract 
only. 

Q. Do you have your own farm or contract entirely ? A. We 
don't own any land; we rent land and do some farming; other 
products are raised on contracts. 

Q. When is the end of your season? A. From the first of 
December to sometimes as late as January; sometimes after that, 
on apples. 

Q. And the rest of the year, after the first of January, is your 
factory closed or open? A. The factory is closed. 

Q. In your factory proper you employ both men and women? 
A. Yes. 

Q. About how many do you employ in the factory? What is 
the highest number and what is the lowest number ? A. I think 
Mr. Higgins could answer that better than I can. The number 
of employees we have had this year was 565, at this factory and 
the vinery stations. 

Q. That is on the farms? A. Yes. 

Q. On the vinery stations do you have children ? A. JSTo. 

Q. Do you employ any children at all under 16 ? A. Under 
16 years? 

Q. Yes? A. No. 

Q. None at all? A. None at all. Well, I say no. Picking 
beans in the fields, some of the Italian parents have their children 
with them picking beans. 

Q. Do these children snip and pick the beans, or only pick 
them? A. Only pick them. 

Q. Is the snipping and stringing of beans done here in the 
sheds or at the factory ? A. Done at the factory. 

Q. Right here at your factory? A. Yes. 

Q. You don't use children to do that ? A. No. 

Q. Do you use women or men to do that ? A. Women. 

Q. Do you have trouble getting sufficient number of women to 



392 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



do that ? A. We have had trouble, but we haven't this year because 
we haven't had beans, to speak of. 

Q. Wliat do you pay lor snipping, by the hour or pound 'i A. 
Pay one cent a pound for wax beans and one and one-half cents 
for green beans. 

y. In your factory itself, what do you pay for help 'i A. Women 
we pay ten cents an hour, most of them ; never less than that, but 
there are a few exceptions where we pay more than that. 

Q. And the men 'i A. Pif teen cents. 

Q. And what are your hours of labor in the factory proper? 
A. We don't aim to work over ten hours. 

Q. Do you exceed that? A. We have. 

Q. To what extent ? A. Why, 1 am sure 1 can't tell. 

Q. Well, take this year ; can you tell me whether you have 
exceeded that limit this year at all ? A. 1 can't tell you. 

(The time-book was produced before the Commission.) 

Q. I think, from our records here, which are copied from your 
time-book of last year, you have never exceeded seventy-two hours 
per week for women. You have never found it necessary to go 
higher than that, have you ? A. We have gotten along with just 
as few hours as we possibly could, in the past we have put men 
on women's work. Of course that isn't a desirable thing to do; 
they can't do the work, for instance, picking peas, sorting peas, 
you know. 

Q. Why did you have to put them on, because you could not 
get women, or put them in a night shift, or what ? A. We haven't 
worked women after 9 o'clock anyway, and at that time, if the 
work was not done, we would put men on picking peas. They 
can't do it as well, and can't do it as fast, of course, as women, 
and of course it is a good deal more expensive. 

Q. You stopped your women working at 9 o'clock at night? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Why did you do that? A. One thing, there was a law 
passed. Of course it was declared, I believe, unconstitutional, but 
I never believed in night work anyway, and tried to get away 
from it. 

Q. You found vou could maintain vour business and still do it 



Edwin S. Thorn. 



393 



in the way you have stated to us? A. We have tried to do it, 
yes, sir. 

Q. Thus far you have succeeded ? A. We have. 

Q. The point is, we find that most of the other canners claim 
that they have to keep these women working eighteen, nineteen 
and twenty hours a day in order to make a success of their busi- 
ness, as they say, but you seem to be able to do without it. You 
know it is the fact, don't you, that most of the other canners do 
work that way? A. No; I don't know that. 

Q. Do you belong to the association ? A. Yes ; only as a mat- 
ter of policy. I don't know, personally, how long they dc work 
the women; don't know anything about it. 

Q. We know, as a matter of fact, that the women were worked 
as high as 112 hours a week. A. Personally I don't believe that 
that is necessary. 

Q. You think it is necessary to employ children under sixteen 
years of age in part of the work, either in the sheds or in the 
factory proper? A. We haven't used any for several years. 

Q. You used to do it? A. We used to, stringing beans and 
stemming cherries, that kind of work. We have had them in the 
sheds. 

Q. Why did you stop it? A. For several reasons. Person- • 
ally, I don't believe in the employment of any children, and I 
did not believe it was necessary for the business; and the work 
that you get from them is not very satisfactory. When we did 
employ any children stemming cherries we employed no boys, 
only girls ; we found that the boys were useless ; they make more 
trouble than we would get from them. We did employ a lot of 
girls. That was always on piece-work, and they could go when- 
ever they pleased, and only started them in, not earlier than 8 
o'clock and quit at 5. That was several years ago. We haven't 
for the last four years employed any under sixteen. The only 
exception is in the farm work, picking beans, where the families 
live out in the lodging house on the farm, and they take the 
children into the fields — babies and everything. 

Q. How are they paid on the farm, by the quantity ? A. Piece 
work. 

Q. Piece work? A. Yes, sir. 




¥ 



394 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



By Miss Dreier: 

Q. Do you think it is any more necessary for children to pick 
beans or string beans than it is for them to stem cherries ? Isn't 
the situation about the same? 

Mr. Elkus: You mean picking beans on the farm? 

Q. Yes. A. Our condition may be different from some other 
packers; we are not as heavy packers of beans as some others. 

Q. But you are very heavy packers of cherries, are you not? 
A. We are quite heavy. 

Q. And you have been able to get along without the children in 
the stemming of cherries ? A. We have. 

Q. And I don't see why you should not be able to get along 
without them in stringing beans. A. I believe we can; I don't 
believe in it. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Who stems your cherries now, women? A. Women. 

Bv Miss Dreier: 

Q. Do you know whether you pack a large number of cases or 
as many cases of beans, for instance, as some other canners ? A. 
I don't suppose we do. 

Q. You don't ? A. No. 

Q. Not even of cherries? A. No. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. How many children do you employ when you pack beans 
and cherries, 500? A. Children? 

Q. Yes. A. No. Oh, probably 150 would be the limit. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. What were the ages, about, of the children that you do em- 
ploy directly? A. Did I say we did not employ any under six- 
teen? 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Yes. A. I want to take that back. I didn't mean that. 
We do, on certificates, employ a few girls between 8 and 5, 



Edwin S. Thorn. 



395 



between the ages of fourteen and sixteen. I did not realize what 

the question was. 

Q. What officer are you in the association ? A. Vice-President. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. You don't employ any under fourteen? A. No, sir; I had 
that in mind when I said sixteen. 

Q. If a canner, Mr. Thorn, claims that he can't conduct his 
business as successfully as he is conducting it without the use of 
children in snipping beans, isn't that because he is carrying an 
acreage which is beyond the capacity of his available supply of 
adult labor? A. I don't think I ought to speak for the other 
canners. I can only speak for our own business. 

Q. Well, when you contract acreage for your supply, do you 
take into consideration your supply of labor ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And the capacity of your plant ? A. Surely ; we have to. 

Q. I mean in addition to the capacity of your plant, also your 
probable supply of labor ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And that can be figured out, can it ? A. Why, it is pretty 
difficult, because you cannot figure out the crop that you are going 
to get from any certain acreage. Now, it may be this year only 
half what it was last year, or double what it was last year, or the 
proportion may be even greater than that, and it is impossible 
to figure the amount of work that your acreage is going to pro- 
duce. 

Q. Wouldn't you say, though, that if a canner operated some 
weeks working women over ninety hours year after year, that 
they were carrying an acreage beyond the capacity of their avail- 
able labor supply ? A. I think that would be the inference. 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Your time books are correctly kept ? A. So far as I know 
they are. The instructions of those who keep the books are to 
keep them correctly, and I suppose they are. 

Q. Does the time shown on your time book show the time 
worked on piece-work as well as the time worked on time work ? 
A. I shall have to ask Mr. Higgins that. 

Mr. Higgins: For women; yes, it does. 



•( 



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396 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



The Witness : We have a time clock, and all the cards show 
the actual time they are working in the factory; whether that 
was put on the book, I am not sure. 

Q. What nationality are your employees; are they Americans 
or foi^eigners? A. What we term foreigners are principally 
Italians. All who work in the factory are residents of Geneva 
or Waterloo, whatever the case may be. 

Q. Are they foreigners or Americans? A. Well, they are 
foreigners, part of them, and part Americans; but they are all 
residents here, only. 

Q. You don't bring any people here ? A. We do, but not for 
factory work ; we bring them for the field work. 

Q. Where do you get them from, Syracuse or Rochester? A. 
We have a man working for us who has been with us for years, 
who knows the work, and he gets them from Rochester, I believe, 
and Syracuse. That is the Italian help; that is all Italian, and 
I never knew where he does get them. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Where do tliey live when they are here? Have you places 
for them ? A. We have a place about a mile and a half out. 

The Witness : I believe that canners should have an excep- 
tion from the general f actoi^ law in the case of women ; I don't 
believe that they should in the case of small children. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. You believe they should have a wide-open exemption ? A. 
Well, I don't know that I should want to be quoted on that. I 
think that we should have an exemption that would enable us to 
take care of our products that on account of weather conditions 
are liable to come on us a great deal more rapidly than we ex- 
pected and that would spoil if we don't handle them. 

Q. Would you care to say what sort of exemption you con- 
sider fair ? A. I hardly think that I would want to be quoted 
just now on that. I don't think I have in my own mind an idea 
of what the exemption should be. I believe that it should be such 
that, without hardship to the women who work for us, that they 
could be employed to take care of our perishable products that, 
on account of weather conditions, come in faster than we expect 



Edwin S. Thorn. 



397 



Q. You don't believe, however, in any exemption for children ? 
A. Not for young children. I don't believe they should work in 
a canning factory or any other factoiy. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Or in a shed ? A. Well, that is almost like a factory. 

Q. Would you be in favor of permitting an exemption for 
women so that they might work, say, 110 hours a week, even 
under the circumstances you refer to? A. I don't believe it 
would be necessary to work 110 hours. 

By Senator Wagner: 

Q. Do you think 75 hours would be reasonable? A. Why, 
that is hard to tell. 

Q. That is 15 more than you are permitted now. A. It is 
hard to tell just what the limit should be.' I don't think in any 
case it would extend over more than a very short time; that is 
weather conditions would be such that the products would pile 
up on us so that we could not handle them for more than a short 
time in the season; but during that time I think that we ought 
to be in a position where we could, witliout breaking the law, 
work overtime to handle these perishable products. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. Haven't you kept within the law much more in later years 
tliin you did at first? A. Years ago there was not any ques- 
tion about it. 

Q. Years ago there wasn't any limitation, was there? A. No; 

no limit. 

Q. And the women worked a great many hours, and your 
factory worked a great many hours ? A. Sometimes they did. 

Q. Now, you have observed the law for the past year, and you 
are successful in doing it ? A. Yes. 

Q. I don't see why, if you are doing it, that other canners 
don't. A. Well, the record don't show that we entirely observed 
the law. We tried to. I think most of us want to be law-abiding 

citizens. 

Q. On what crops, Mr. Thorn, do you think it is necessary for 
the canners to have an exemption permitting them to work over 
sixty hours ? A. Well, I think that that would be qualified some- 



398 



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MmuTES OF Public Hearings. 



what by tlio kind of crops that are handled. In our case, peas, 
probably, more than anything else. We have had seasons where 
we were pressed very hard on cherries and some fruits because 
the conditions wore such that they ripened all at once; but of 
course, cold storage will help that out ; fruits can be put in cold 
storage, where peas cannot. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. Beans can't be put in cold storage, can they? A. It is 
not practical. Of course, we have about 110 acres of beans which 
we handled at one factory last year; and we are not supposed 
to handle beans more than once, but when we had a surplus here, 
more than we could handle in this factory, we sent them to 
Waterloo by trucks, and that helped out. That is only seven 
miles, of course. " 

Further hearing adjourned to August 15, 1912. 



HEAKING OF THE STATE FACTORY INVESTIGATING COmilS- 
SION HELD AT THE PLANT OF THE OLNEY CANNING 
COMPANY, ALBION, N. Y., AUGUST 15, 1912 . 



Present: 

Hon. Robert F. Wagner, Chairman, 
Hon. Edward D. Jackson, 
Hon. Cyrus W. Phillips, 
Miss Mary E. Dreier. 

A'ppearances: 

Hon. Abram I. Elkus, Counsel to the Commission. 
Bernard L. Siiientag, Esq., Assistant Counsel. 

George Sciolino, being duly sworn, testified as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Siiientag : 

Q. Where do you live? A. 123 Wilson street. 

Q. When did you come to this factory? A. About the 20th 

of June, I think. 

Q. Have you been here since that time? A. I have been work- 
ing here. 

Q. Since that time? A. Yes. 

Q. Who came with you ? A. My family did. 

Q. Who are the members of your family? A. My mother 
and four more girls, I guess. 

Q. Four sisters ? A. Five sisters. 

Q. Your mother and five sisters? A. Yes. 

Q. How old is the youngest sister ? A. About 9, I guess. 

Q. What is her name? A. I don't know, so I will ask my 

mother. 

Q. Is this the youngest ? A. There is one younger than her. 

Q. How old is this girl? A. She is coming 11 in March. 

Q. Does she go to school ? A. Yes. 

Q. What class is she in ? A. Second B. 

Q. What school does she go to ? A. School 2. 

[399] 



400 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Rose Scinta. 



401 



! 



I 



Q. Was she bom in this country ? A. Bom in Buffalo. 

Q. What does she do here in this factory? A. Just string 
beans. 

Q. How much does she get for stringing beans? A. What- 
ever she earns. . 

Q. How much does she get a pound? A. Gets one cent a 
pound. 

Q. When did she begin working? A. Just started in since 
Monday, I guess. 

Q. Just befiran Monday? A. Yes. 

Q. And was that the first time they began stringing beans 
here ? A. Yes ; but she didn't work Monday ; I guess she started 
yesterday. 

Q. Did she and you work here last year? A. iNTo. 

Q. Any other members of your family work here last year? 
A. My mother and big sister. 

Q. How old is your big sister? A. Fifteen. 

Q. This is the first year you have brought the little girls ? A. 
They have been here, but haven't worked. 

Q. Were they were last year? A. Yes. 

Q. Where do you live here? A. In the shanties. 

Carmille Serraggio, called as a witness, was examined 
through the interpreter as follows: 

Oeorge S. Congialosi, sworn as interpreter. 

Direct examination by Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Where do you live? A. In Buffalo, but I don't know the 
address. 

Q. Is your mother here? A. Yes. 

Q. Who brought you to this factory ? A. I came alone here. 

Q. From Buffalo? A. My mother and all brought me from, 
Buffalo. 

Q. Where is your mother now ? Does your mother work in the 
warehouse here? A. Yes. 

Q. What doing, snipping beans ? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you snip beans to-day ? A. Yes. 



I 



m\ 



Q. What time did you start ? A. I just came. 

Q. Did you snip beans any time before this ? A. No. 

Q. Is this the first day you are here in this factory ? A. Yes. 

Q. Were you ever here before ? A. No. 

Q. How old are you ? A. Eleven years old. 

Q. Do you go to school ? A. Yes. 

Q. What class are you in ? A. In third. 

Q. Three-A or two-B ? A. Three. 

Q. Three-A? A. Yes. 

Q. What school is it ? A. St. Anthony's School. 

Rose Scinta, called as a witness, testified as follows : 

Direct examination by Mr. Shientag : 

Q. Where do you live? A. Seventh street. 

Q. Buffalo? A. Yes. 

Q. Is this the first year you are working in this factory ? A. No 

Q. Did you work here last year ? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you work here the year before that? A. This is the 
second year. 

Q. How old are you ? A. Ten. 

Q. Do you go to school ? A. Yes. 

Q. What school ? A. No. 2. 

Q. What class are you in? A. Third B. 

Q. Is this the first time you are working here this year? A. 
Yesterday. 

Q. When did you begin to work yesterday? What time? 
After breakfast? A. After I came out of school. 

Q. Well, you didn't go to school yesterday, did you ? A. Yes ; 
at the tents here. 

Q. What time did you get out of school ? Was it after dinner 
or before dinner ? A. Eleven o'clock I came out of school and I 
began work at 2 o'clock. 

Q. How long did you work yesterday, was it long? A. Only 
worked a half an hour. 

Q. How much money did you make, do you know ? A. Twenty- 
six cents. 

Q. How many sisters have you got working here ? A. Three. 



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402 



Minutes of Public Heakings. 



Q. Older than you, or younger? Anyone younger? A. No; 
I am the smallest in the family. 

Q. How long did you work here last summer, all summer ? A. 
When school stopped. 

Q. When public school in Buffalo stopped? A. Until school 

started. 

Q. W^ell, did you work here all day last year, the whole day 

long? A. No. 

Robert Mulbee, being duly sworn, testified as follows : 

Direct examination by Mr. Shientag : 

Q. Are you connected with the Burt Olney Canning Company ? 
A. I am superintendent ; that is all. 

Q. For how long have you been superintendent of this com- 
pany ? A. Two years. 

Q. Who is president of the company ? A. Mr. Burt Olney. 

Q. And were you in the canning business prior to that time? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where ? A. In Home and Oneida. 

Q. For whom in Rome? A. Mr. Burt Olney. 

Q. And in Oneida for Mr. Burt Olney, also ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. For how long have you been in the canning business? A. 
About sixteen or seventeen years. 

Q. What does this company can ? A. Almost everything in the 
line of vegetables and fruit. 

Q. What is the first vegetable or fruit you begin to can? A. 
Spinach. 

Q. When do you begin to can that ? A. About the first of May. 
We don't can it here. Peas is the first thing we can here. 

Q. Where do you can the spinach? A. At Oneida. 

Q. When do you begin there, about the first of May ? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. And how long do you can spinach at Oneida? A. I sup- 
pose about a month or six weeks; I could not tell exactly. 

Q. Do you employ any children? A. Not on spinach. 

Q. Do you employ women on spinach? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What work do they do? A. Trimming the spinach. 

Q. They are in the factory ? A. Yes. 



Robert Mulree. 



403 



Q. What do you pay them ? A. Well, I think they are paid by 
the pound ; I could not say exactly. I think they are paid by the 
pound, so much a pound ; the trimming is piece work. 

Q. How long ago were you superintendent at Oneida? A. I 
should think about three years ago. 

Q. How many hours a day did the women work at spinach when 
you were superintendent there? A. Why, about nine hours a 
day as a rule on spinach. 

Q. There is no occasion whatever for a woman working over- 
time on spinach, is there ? A. Not on spinach, not to exceed ten 
or eleven hours, I guess. 

Q. Why eleven hours? A. Why, not to exceed ten hours, on 
spinach, you might say. 

Q. W^hy should they exceed nine hours on spinach ? A. Why, 
that depends some; spinach you know, sometimes it will deteri- 
orate. That is, you may have a lot of spinach going on that you 
cannot handle, don't you know, and it will deteriorate; and then 
it is something that grows rapidly, according to rain — if you have 
rain and nice warm weather, of course, it grows rapidly, and you 
will have to work longer hours than other times. 

Q. You never experienced any difficulty in your spinach season 
with women working not more than ten hours a day, did you? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. What is the next vegetable or fruit that you can ? A. Peas. 

Q. In all three of the canneries? A. No. At Medina, they 
can fruits there. 

Q. When do you commence canning peas? A. Well, that 
depends; that depends on the season some; last year we com- 
menced the 12th of June. 

Q. How long did it last last year ? A. Well, it lasted about a 

little over three weeks. 

Q. And this year when did you begin? A. Why, it started 
about, I think, the 27th of June. 

Q. But you are still canning peas, aren't you ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Well, the season last year, as I understand you, for peas, 
began before the middle of June and extended for only three 
weeks ? A. Yes, sir. 



404 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 






Q. Weren't you canning peas the middle of July, last year ? A. 
Well, I could not say ; we may have been canning a few peas, but 
what I am talking about is the bulk of our peas is about three 
weeks, the heavy rush of them ; I could not say the dates, whether 
it was later or not. 

Q. In the canning of peas do you employ any children? A. 
Not under 16 years old; not supposed to. 

Q. You don't employ any children, if you know that they are 
under 16 years old? A. Not if we know they are under 16 years 
old we don't. 

Q. Do you employ women in connection with canning peas ? A. 

Yes, sir. 

Q. Last year, what were the hours that women were employed ? 
A. Well, that I could not say. They vary, don't you know; the 
hours vary, according to the way your crops come in. 

Q. Did they have to work more than ten hours a day ? A. Why, 
I don't know that they would average — 

Q. I don't mean the average; on any day, I mean. A. Yes; 
they would. 

Q. What was the maximum number of hours per day a woman 
worked here last year on peas, do you remember '( A. I suppose 
they would run up to fifteen hours sometimes. 

Q. How many? A. Probably fifteen hours. 

Q. A day ? A. I think so, at the very busiest time, maybe for a 

day or two. 

Q. On consecutive days ? A. It might be to-day and to-morrow 

or maybe ten days. 

Q. And it might be fifteen ? A. Yes. 

Q. And it might be fifteen hours for several days in succession ? 
A. As a rule that doesn't average — there might be a week, say ; 
I could not say that. I could not tell off-hand. 

Q. Have you got your time book for July of last year? A. 
Yes, we have a time book. 

Q. Will you turn to the week beginning July 3, 1911? Can 
you tell us by looking at your time book how many hours Mary 
Jenko, No. 276, worked on July 3, 1911? A. No, sir; I could 

not. 

Q. Don't you keep a record showing the number of hours? A. 
We do, yes, sir; but there is lots of times that their mother 



KOBERT MULREE. 



405 



works on their card and their sister works on their card, and 
they don't always work all day. 

Q. Aren't you supposed to keep a record showing the number 
of hours that each woman in your factory works every day ? A. 

We do. 

Q. Can you tell me how many hours Mary Jenko, known as 
No. 276, worked for your firm on the 3d day of July, 1911 ? A. 
The only way I could tell you would be by the time book. 

Q. Will you send for the time book? A. That is the book 

there. 

Q. Can you tell us by looking at the time book how many 
hours she worked on the 3d of July, 1911 ? A. Why, it is on the 
book there what she worked. 

By Assemblyman Jackson: 

Q. You identify this as your time book ? A. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Shientag: Who keeps this time book?^ 

The Witness: The bookkeeper. 

By Assemblyman Jackson: 

Q. The question is, from your identification of the time book, 
did that woman work on that date, on the 3d of July ? That is 
the question. A. Why, if the time book is right and if she did 
work it is on there; but I could not say. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. How many hours does the time book show she worked on 
that date? A. She worked fifteen and one-^half hours. 

Q. And the 4th of July ?^ A. Nineteen hours. 

Q. And the 5th of July? A. Fourteen hours. 

Q. And the 6 th? A. Fifteen and one-half hours. 

Q. And the 7th ? A. Sixteen hours. 

Q. And the 8th ? A. Twelve and one-half hours. 

Q. Making a total of ninety-two and one-half hours ? A. Yes. 

Q. How much was she paid an hour? A. I thinJk: she was 
paid, at that time, eight cents an hour. I could not say. 

Q. What does your time book show ? A. It shows eight cents 
there. 



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406 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. Now, why did you say you don't know whether she worked 
the number of hours the time book would indicate? A. I don't 
look at this time book all the time, or I don't know the girls lots 
of times. They go by number here. 

Q. And how do you keep your time book, then ? A. We have 
a bookkeeper that keeps the time book. 

Q. Showing the number of hours the girls work? A. Yes. 

Q. Is there any reason to suppose the time book is not cor- 
rectly kept? A. I should not think so; no. 

Q. If the time book showed this woman worked fifteen and one- 
half hours on the 3d of July, she did, as a matter of fact, do that 
many hours work ? A. She may have. I would not say. 

Q. Why not ? A. Because sometimes her sister may work two 
or three hours a day for her. 

By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. That is only occasionally, isn't it? A. No, it is not with 
us, because we have families here and they can't all work, and 
there are lots of times when they can't all work and there is other 
times when they all can work ; and lots of times, at night, if the 
girl is tired, her mother takes the card and works for her. 

Q. Her mother has no card, then? A. No; and her sister 
works some times. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Why hasn't she a card? Don't she work? A. Yes; but 
she takes the girl's card. 

Q. Don't you know that as a matter of fact, that is not in eorn- 
plicance with the Labor Law ? You are supposed to keep a time 
book showing the number of hours each woman works. You are 
not doing that, are you? A. I would not say. Of course, that 
girl may have worked the full fifteen hours. 

Q. You don't mean to say your book is false, then? A. No, 
sir; it is not. 

Q. It is correct ? A. It is supposed to be correct. 

Q. I want to know the actual facts ? Does this time book cor- 
rectly indicate the number of hours that each woman works, or 
do you take the number of hours that a mother works and credit 



Robert Mulree. 



407 



it to the daughter's account and vice versa? A. No; we don't 
do that at all ; we don't do business that way. 

Q. You just said, sometimes a mother would come in and 
work a few hours and add it to the daughter's card. A. She does 

it of her own free will. 

Q. We are not finding fault ; we simply want to get the f axjts. 
A. Well, it is kept just as they work. That girl may have 
worked every minute ; I don't know. 

Q. And sometimes somebody else may have done the work for 
her, but you did not indicate who did the work for her? A. 
No ; and maybe there wasn't anybody did the work for her. 

Q. Even if somebody had done the work, it would not be in 

this book ? A. No. 

Q. Why not ? A. Because these girls' names — this girl's name 
would appear on there as if she had done the work. 

Q. As if she had done the work. Let's exclude this particular 
girl. Suppose a girl's mother had worked for her two or three 
hours and worked on the girl's card your book would show these 
additional three hours on the girl's account, wouldn't it ? A. In 
some cases it would, and some cases it would not. 

Q. Well, in what cases would it, and in what cases wouldn't 
it? A. If there was a strange woman went to — 

Q. (Interrupting.) I said the girl's mother? A. Well, that 
might be; I could not say. 

Q. Why should that be? That isn't in compliance with the 
law. The law is designed to show the inspector the number of 
hours each woman works. A. It does ; it shows that girl worked 
eighteen or fifteen hours, whatever it was, regardless of whether 
the mother worked or not. 

By Assemblyman Jackson: 

Q. You identify that as correct? A. That is correct. That 
girl got a card when she went to work, and her sister, mother or 
brother may have worked for her, and she gets the credit just the 

same. 

Q. You would say that is substantially correct, that that girl 
worked fifteen and three-quarters hours? A. Yes; so far as that 
is concerned. 



408 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Well, suppose this girl, Mary Jenko, had worked fifteen 
and one-half hours on her own card and then she did some work 
for her sister, would that extra work appear on her sister's card ? 
A. Yes, sir, it would, if her sister was working. The girl gets a 
card and keeps the card. 

Q. As a matter of fact, Mary Jenko can actually be working 
twenty hours a day and if she works four hours on her sister's 
card, her own card would simply show sixteen hours? A. Yes; 
but she doesn't do that as a rule. 

Q. It could happen? A. I won't say it could not happen; 
but I know it don't. 

By Assemblyman Jackson : 

Q. Don't you keep track of the girls in each department from 
one department to the other? A. We do as much as possible, 
but sometimes we may have people working on one thing and 
possibly they would be all switched over to something else, but 
the same card goes through the entire day. 

Q. I can't really understand how a girl or any one of your 
help would come over and be credited for work on another girl's 
card. She would have a card of her own if you transferred her 
from one department to another. A. She would have a card of 
her own, and she has a card — 

Q. It should be credited to her. A. It is credited on the card. 
For instance, we put ten or fifteen people to work on string 
beans, understand, and we finish up string beans and want to 
start up peas, possibly, in a ca^e of this kind where you have a 
few beans and a few peas, and you might send that girl over to 
work on peas, but she would still retain her card. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. That isn't the point. The point is this ; suppose this girl, 
Mary Jenko, was working on beans, and suppose she worked 
about sixteen hours and then her mother got kind of tired and she 
went over and took her mother's place on her mother's card? 
A. She can't do that. 

Q. What is to prevent her from doing that ? A. Well, she is 



Robert Mulree. 



409 



working in a place where she is supposed to be there, unless she 
is tired and goes home. 

Q. Suppose she has got through with her work ? A. Then she 
goes home. 

Q. Then she can help her mother, can she? A. Not if she is 
done working she can't help her mother. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. As a matter of fact, you can't tell whether she does that or 
not, because you credit her mother with the number of hours she 
works, and the mother's card shows she worked for her mother ? 
If she works ten hours, you credit her that ten hours, and if she 
works twelve hours, you credit twelve hours. If she gets tired 
at the six hours and gives her card to her daughter, who works 
six hours more, you would credit the mother twelve hours, and 
the girl that worked for her mother isn't shown at all; isn't that 
so? A. I don't mean that that way, at all. I mean that lots of 
times, for instance, there was a card her mother was working on 
and she goes home at 11 o'clock, or goes home at 6 o'clock and 
don't come back any more, or went home at 10 o'clock tired or 
something; there is only one case once in a while like that, but 
there are cases like that where they have done it. 

Q. It is not done regularly? A. No. 

By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. Then, your time book is substantially correct? A. It is 
supposed to be correct, so far as I know. 

Q. And these women actually work the hours they are credited 
with? A. Yes; they are, unless just as I told you. 

By Mr. Shientag : 

Q. They may have worked more, in one or two instances, as 
you say? They may have worked more or less; isn't that so? 
A. They never worked more than that, that's a cinch ; they never 
work more than what they got paid for. 

Q. Well, isn't it possible that they worked more than what 
would appear to be credited to their particular account, but they 
worked to the credit of somebody else's account, their mother or 
sister, as the case may be? A. No. 



410 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



•iv 



Q. You said that a few minutes ago. A. I didn't saj that they 
was working, understand, 12 or 15 hours, and then came and 
worked — 

Q. Suppose a woman worked 3 or 4 hours and then worked 
? or 3 hours more on her mother's card; that is possible, isn't 
it? A. Yes. 1- ^ 

By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. You mean a person working on another j>erson's card would 
not have a card of their own ? A. It is possible, but I would 
not want to say. I have known instances that I didn't know any- 
thing about. What I mean by that is that time and again I 
have been around where I knew the girl whose mother was putr 
ting down cans, and she was not there and I asked, '' Where is 
she " and she would say, " Why, I am taking her place a little 
while; she is gone a little while." 

Q. That has never, to your knowledge, amounted to any length 
of time ? A. Ko. 

By Mr. Siiientag: 

Q. The women, then, in the pea season do work more than ten 
hours a day, don't they? A. Yes, sir; they do. 

Q. And what kind of work are these women engaged in that 
work more than ten hours a day during the pea season ? A. Why, 
as a rule, sorting peas. 

Q. Are they the only women that are kept over time during 
the season, sorting peas? A. Why, no; I would not say that. 

Q. Well, what other women are kept over time in the pea 
season? A. Girls, sometimes, putting on caps. 

Q. Do girls put on caps here ? A. Yes. 

Q. Have you got an automatic machine? A. N'o. 

Q. They have in some other canneries, haven't they ? A. They 
have in some places; but we haven't been able to work them satis- 
factorily, yet. 

Q. Have you tried it? A. Yes; we have tried them. 

Q. Is it necessary to employ women at putting caps on? A. 
Why, I would not say that; it is with us. 

Q. Have you tried to get men to do the work ? A. Why, we 
have never tried men; no. 



Robert Mulree. 



411 



Q. Well, it is perfectly possible to have men do the capping, 
isn't it? A. No. 

By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. Why? A. They are not active enough, for one thing, and 
they can't get them out 

Q. They can't work as fast? A. No. 

Q. That is the only objection? A. We haven't got one man 
in the whole factory that we chase around all day that could put 
on caps the way a girl can. It is not hard work. They sit down 
and put on the caps. 

By Assemblyman Jackson: 

Q. It is entirely sitting-down-work, isn't it? A. Yes. We 
have two girls putting on caps and they change off. We pay for 
two girls and one girl can do the work and half the time she is 
outside. The girls that put on caps will tell you that Half the 
time they are sitting outside in the shed somewherea. We have 
two girls that put on caps. 

Q. How many men do you think it would take to put on caps, 
to do the same amount of work? A. You could not get men 
enough around the machine sometimes, unless you happened to 
get the right fellow. 

Q. Two girls put on all the caps that come through a machine, 
and yet there is only one working most of the time? A. Two 
will put them on most of the time ; but I have seen — 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. How many do they put on? A. I have seen them put on 
110 a minute, if they have to. 

Q. If she has to ? A. She would rather do it that way. 

Q. Well, why ? A. I have sighted girls sitting at their places, 
as much as I could see they would be there, but they like to go 
out and sit around and sometimes I have noticed them get in a 
group and visit for an hour and then go back and let the other 
girl go. 



By Assemblyman Phillips : 

Q. You say the girls work better than the women? 
or the men either. 



A. Yes; 



412 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



ti 



Q. How old are they? A. The girls putting on caps are 
girls about 18 or 19 or 20 years old. 

Q. That is, they can speed up better than the women or men 
because ,they are younger? A. They are younger and work 
faster. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. They haven't got outside interests like the men have ? A. 
Yes. 

By Mr. S'hientag: 

Q. How much do you pay these girls? A. Sometimes we pay 
them eight cents; sometimes ten cents. 
Q. An hour ? A. Yes. 

By Assemblyman Jackson: 

Q. How does that vary ? About how much, between 8 and 10 ? 
How does it vary, depending on the quickness of the worker ? 
A. No; it is just a price. We set a price on some certain class 
of work. 

Q. Well, that is all the same class of work, isn't it? *A. I 
don't mean that pay. 

(}. What are you paying the girls that put the caps on? A. 
Eight cents an hour; sometimes ten cents. What I mean, some- 
times ten cents, later in the season we have women, for instance, 
that peel tomatoes, and they make big money; and we have 
people later that go on piece work and they make big money, and 
unless we do that in order to keep things peaceable, we have to 
raise the price or else all the people would want to peel tomatoes 
or something else. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. No girls would do capping? A. Yes. 
By Assemblyman Pjiillips: 

^ Q. Do you pay the women the same as you do the girls ? A. 
Yes, sir. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. Do you pay seven cents an hour to some women, too« A 

No. > • . 



Robert Mulree. 



413 



By Mr. S'hientag: 

Q. \^^hen you pay ten cents an hour there is more work to be 
done; isn't that it? You pay more during the rush season? 
A. No. During the pea season we pay eight cents an hour be- 
cause there is a plenty of help at that time, and later in the 
fall when we get peeling tomatoes and working on com and all 
that, it is harder to get help and they can make more money on 
this other kind of work and we have to, in order to get the work 
done, pay more money. 

Q. You have no difficulty in getting help during the pea season, 
have you ? A. We do sometimes ; and sometimes we don't. 

Q. Well, generally speaking you liave no difficulty in getting 
all the women you need ? A. We have difficulty any time to get 
help. I don't mean to say that it is a cinch to get them, you 
know. 

Q. Well, you have gotten them, haven't you? A. Yes. 

Q. And you have gotten all that you need ? A. I got all that I 
needed so far. 

Q. These women that put caps on have to stay in a little longer 
than the other women, haven't they? A. Sometimes, yes, they 
stay a little longer. As a rule they stay a little longer, but 
when they stay longer they start later in the morning, so that 
as a rule it evens up that part of it. 

Q. Wliat other women, besides the women who shell the peas 
and put caps on, work over time during the pea season ? A. The 
women or girls that put down cans. 

Q. Put down cans. What do you mean ? A. Put cans in the 
machines. 

Q. Well, through what period does this over time extend ? A. 
That is according to the way your crops come in. I couj^ not 
say what period. 

Q. Well, what would be the maximum period, based upon your 
experience of the last fifteen or sixteen years ? W^uld it be more 
than two weeks ? A. Why, it might be ten days, liuring your 
early peas, and it might be a week or ten days during the late peas. 

Q. Would it be more than ten days ? Is that the maximum ? 
We simply want your general impression ? A. I would not say 
that. I think possibly that would cover it. 



414 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



IS' 

p 

I* 



Q. Would ten days during the early peas and ten days during 
the late peas cover the m^er time? A. The bulk of it; yes, sir. 

Q. Well, about a month, then, would certainly cover all the 
over time in peas, wouldn't it? A. Yes; I think it would. 

Q. How much over time do you find that you need on 
peas? A. Well, that depends on the season. We are canning 
peas yet, some peas, and still we had, during that hot weather 
we had a rush, and it was absolutely necessary to work overtime 
or they would spoil. 

Q. When was that? A. I can't tell you the date, exactly. 

Q. About what time? Was it in June or July of this year? 
A Why, I should say it was in July; sometime along about the 
10th of July. 

Q. How long did the women work then ? A. That I could not 
tell you exactly. 

Q. May we ask for the time sheets for July and we will go on 
with something else ? A. Yes. 

Q. How many pea viners have you in this factory ? A. We 
have fourteen here. 

Q. And how many acres of peas have you contracted for, or 
have you on your ground ? A. Do you mean here at this factory 
around Albion ? 

^ Q. Yes. A. Why, I would not tell you that without looking 
It up. We have stations all around the country at different places. 
Q. From which you send the product to this factory ? A Yes 
sir. ' 

Q. Well, how many acres are included in all of these stations 
that you have? A. Why, I should think somewheres about 1 800 
acres. ' 

Q. That would be about twenty-five acres for each pea viner? 
A. Well, we have fourteen viners here, understand, and we have 
eighteen at the other places. 

Q. I see, and this product is distributed among these various 
places ? A. All these viners, yes, sir. 

By lEiss Dbeieb: 

Q. You calculate a certain number of acres to each vinery 
station or to each viner, don't you, in calculating the amount that 
you can get out ? A. Yes. 



Robert Mulreb. 



415 



Q. About sixty-five or seventy-five acres? A. Why, I don't 
know as we could figure that out, of course. Some figure differ- 
ently; some figure 100 and some even more. 

By Mr. Shientag : 

Q. Well, how do you figure it? A. Well, you could figure up 
your viners there, but I could not tell you off hand. 

By Miss Dbeier: 

Q. How do you figure the number of acres you contract for 
peas for the season ? A. How many ? 

Q. Yes. How do you know how many you can handle, how 
many acres you can handle ? A. We usually figure that we have 
machinery enough to take care of the rush and some besides. We 
figure over instead of under on all our machinery, and then there 
is times that the crops is so small that it w^ould not be necessary 
to use all the machinery, and yet there is times when they all 
could go and we have to use them. 

Q. Why don't you get more employees during the rush season 
instead of working overtime ? A. It is impossible to do it. 

Q. Why? A. They don't get hours enough. 

Q. What is that? A. They don't get work enough, hours 
enough. 

Q. Suppose you paid more per hour, wouldn't that take care of 
it? A. I don't know. I suppose if you paid them double pay 
for short hours you might be able to get them. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Well, has it ever happened during the last ten years that 
you didn't have to work overtime during the pea season, or, as a 
matter of fact, have you had to work overtime every year during 
the last ten years ? A. I think it varies. 

Q. The overtime varies, but wasn't there overtime each year? 
A. I could not tell you ; but I know there is seasons when we 
work very little overtime and there is other seasons when we work 
less. 

Q. When you contract for this crop, do you contract for as 
much as you have contracts to sell, or as much as you can get? 
A. Why, we contract what we think we can take care of and 
handle. 



416 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



By Assemblyman Jackson: 

Q. Prospective sales don't have anything to do with what you 
contract for? A. No. We may deliver 50 per cent, of the sales 
this year, and we might deliver 35 per cent, in some cases. We 
might think we had enough to take care of 100 per cent, and you 
might fall down and would not be able to deliver 50 per cent. 
According to seasons. 

Q. If there is a good prospect for a good market, your contracts 
would be more extensive that way, wouldn't they? A. They 
might on some things; yes. 

Q. That would have a tendency to increase that way ? A. Yes 
sir. ' 

By ]\1>. S HIE NT AG : 

Q. Do you know the present law regulating the employment of 
women m canneries limits you to GO hours a week, with a certain 
overtime? A. Yes, sir; and we try to live up to that. I don't 
think there is anybody that has worked over 60 hours. 

Q. You don't live up to it during the pea season? A. Yes we 
do. ' 

Q. Well, in this particular case, Mary Jenko last year worked 
more than 60 hours a week. A. Well, I don't know; I could not 
say as to that. 

Q. Well, isn't it a fact that during the pea season a great many 
women work more than 60 hours a week? Those are the facts 
aren't they? A. Why, yes; I should think according to the time 
book there; I should say so. 

Q. Well, you know so of your own personal knowledge, don't 
jou ? You know how long these women work ? A. I know they 
don't average 60 hours a week, because there is lots of days they 
don't — don't average 60 hours a week. 

By Assemblyman Phillips : 

Q. You know, as a matter of fact, some women did work more 
than 60 hours in some weeks ? A. If you have the bcx>k it might 
show it. 

By Assemblyman Jackson : 

Q. You would discharge a timekeeper if he put in more hours 



ROBEET MUT.REE. 



417 



than a woman worked and you found it out? A. Why, I think 
so; yes. 

Q. You are pretty sure to do it ; no question about it ? A. I 
think we would. 

Q. He would have to show it was a mistake? A. Yes. If it 
was a mistake we would not. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. You don't think a canner ought to be permitted to work 
a woman any unlimited number of hours a week on any occasion ? 
A. IN'o, not if the woman doesn't want to work. 

By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. Whether she wants to or not. She might want to commit 
suicide, yet there is a law against it? A. (No answer.) 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. In other words, we want your opinion as to the necessity 
for this wide open exemption under the law that takes effect on 
the first of October, so far as the pea season is concerned ? A. I 
think it is necessary for a few days. Of course, if this was con- 
tinued on for months and months, I don't think it would be 
necessary; it could be gotten around; but this is only for a few 
days, and it is necessary to do that to take care of your crops. 
You must either do that or get out of the canning business first 
as last. 

Q. Even for those few days it is not necessary to work a 
woman seventeen or eighteen hours a day, is it? A. It might 
be, or else put the stuff in the sewer. You could probably do 
that — throw it away — because after you have the stuff threshed 
out you must take care of it or put it in the sewer. 

Q. If you have to take care of it, don't you think you ought 
to be made to see to it that you have sufficient employees to take 
care of it without working women eighteen hours a day ? A. We 
do take care of it. 

Q. I want your views. A. We do try to have help enough. 

Q. Don't you think the canners ought to have help enough so 
as to avoid the necessity of employing women eighteen hours a 
day on any occasion? A. I should say so; yes. 
Vol. Ill — 14 



418 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



ROBEET MULKEE. 



419 



Q. I show you an entry in your time-book, showing the number 
of hours that Mary Meyers worked during the week beginning 
July 7th. What work was Mary Meyers doing, No. 69 ? A. She 
was the fore-lady in charge of the boiler. 

Q. And your time-book shows she worked 102% hours during 
that week ? A. Yes. I could not say as to that. 

Q. Who is No. 65 ? The name doesn't appear in the time-book. 
Do you know ? A man or a woman ? A. I could not say that. 
(Examining book) Riley; he is the fireman. 

Q. What do you think ought to be the maximum number of 
hours a woman should be permitted to be employed at any time, 
even during the rush season? There ought to be some limit, 
shouldn't there? A. There should be. 

Q. And what is your present view, your personal opinion of 
it? A. Well, of course, I think that ought to be a rule where 
for a few days in peas, whether it is a week or ten days, in case 
you had a season where you had hot, dry weather, and everything 
burned up and you had to take care of it, I think there ought to 
be some allowance, whether it is fourteen or fifteen days, or what- 
ever it is. I know you can't do it in the limited time that they 
give you. 

Q. Well, how many hours do you think a woman ought to be 
worked, the maximum number, night or day ? A. I don't think 
— I should think fourteen or fifteen hours in a case of a few 
days, if necessary. 

By Assemblyman Jackson: 

Q. In other words, the only thing that would convince you 
that the hours should be limited, would be an injury to her health 
or morals? You would be in favor of working a woman any 
number of hours as long as you didn't injure her health or morals ? 
A. Yes, for a few days, if it was necessary to take care of this 
stuff. 

Q. You would put the value of the stuff ahead of the harm to 
the woman, would you ? A. Well, we don't work any woman that 
isn't able to work or is sick ; or if she wants to go home she goes. 
There has never been anybody wanted to go home or that was 
compelled to work that didn't want to work. 



By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. You pay eight cents an hour, don't you ? A. We do some- 
times ; during the pea season we pay eight cents an hour. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Ten cents is the maximum? A. No; we have paid as 
high as twelve cents. 

^ Q. Do you pay any less than eight cents to any of them ? A. 
Not that I know of. 

Q. How many children under fourteen years have you got 
snipping beans ? A. I could not say as to that 
Q. Approximately ? A. I could not say. 

Q. You have got some, quite a few, under ten ? A. No no • 
not that I know of. ' ' 

Q. Well, there are some under ten. A. There isn't supposed 
to be. 

Q. You don't keep any record of those snipping beans at all, 
do you ? A. We try to. 

Q. How do you try to? A. We employ a teacher, school 
teacher at school here, and she goes to the families and gets the 
ages and everything as near as she can, and we have her give 
the children a check stating that they are ten vears old, and if 
they haven't got the check they can't get into the sheds. 

Q. Does she have any system of keeping that or trying to es- 
tablish a system ? A. She gets the names as they come in and 
tlie record. ' 

Q. As a time-book proposition, you don't keep any record of 
who works there at all ? A. No. 

Q. You pay for every pound of beans turned in? A. Yes; 
and they come and go as they w^ant to. 

Q. Do any of these children live in the village ? A. Yes. 

Q. Most of them are in the Italian colony ? A. No. We have 
the Polack children in the Polack colony. 

Q. How many Italians do you bring to that colony from Buf- 
falo ? A. I don't know ; they vary. 

Q. Well, about how many, now ? A. I should think there was 
200 around here. 

Q. Of the Italians you brought here and that live here, where 
do they live ? A. We have places where they live in. 



420 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. You have built places for them to live in ? A. Yes. 
Q. How many rooms in them? A. There is a family in a 
place. 

Q. Each family in a place. What do you moan, one room ? 
A. Is^o; some places have two or three rooms, some places more. 

Q. How do you determine the size of the place ? A. Accord- 
ing to family. 

Q. What is your basis of determining that? A. Sometimes 
there is a small family, they get a small place. 

Q. What is your basis? How do you detei-mine what size 
place you will give them ? A. I don't know as — 

Q. (Interrupting.) Who attends to determining what size 
place a family shall have? A. The ItaJian foreman. 

Q. The foreman you employ? A. Yes. 

Q. Is he the one that brings these people? A. Yes. 

Q. He determines that ? A. Yes. 

Q. You don't pay any attention to that ? A. T do, yes. 

Q. What do you pay for bringing these people here ? A. We 
hire him by the year, or month. 

Q. You don't pay anything per head or family ? A. 'No, 

Q. Do you pay any attention to the condition in which they 
live? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. ^^Tiat are your rules there? A. We furnish them plenty 
of water to keep the places clean. 

Q. Where is the water ? A. It is city water. 

Q. Is there a tap in each place? A. No, not in the houses. 

Q. Where is the tap ? A. The taps are all through the yard. 

Q. How far away from the houses?, A. Ten to 20 feet. 

Q. From each place? That is, is there a tap within 20 feet 
of each place? A. Well, I could not say that. I don't know. 
I could not say whether it is 20 or 50 feet, but it is there. 

By Assemblyman Jackson: 

Q. Who furnishes the eatables for those people? A. They do 
themselves. 

Q. Do they cook them themselves? A. Yes. 

Q. They furnish them. Do you buy them or the foreman ? 
A. There is an Italian has a little store. 






' 



EOBEET MULREE. 



421 



Q. This foreman you employ, does he furnish them ? A. Yes; 
he has a store. 

Q. That is all he does, run the store ? A. :N'o ; his wife takes 
care of the store. 

Q. Does he work in the factory? A. Yes. 
By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. Then he sells groceries to these people he brings h^re^ A. 
Yes. 

By Mr. Shientag : 

Q. Women work in the canning of your bean crop, don't they ? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Do you have occasion to work them over time ? A. Some- 
times; yes. 

Q. On what occasions, and why ? A. Why, it depends accord- 
ing to the crop. If your beans come along there may be some 
times when you have to take care of them. 

Q. Well, can't you arrange for an adequate labor supply on 
those occasions ? Those aren't very many in the bean crop, are 
they ? A. They happen in a few cases. 

Q. In a few cases? A. Yes. For instance, you might pick 
peas or beans over to-day and you might get fifty barrels from 
them, from that one piece of beans, and you might have people 
enough around here to can them, you might say, and maybe you 
get a nice rain and a nice warm day and the next time you pick 
the piece you might get 400 barrels from it. 

Q. What overtime is necessary on the bean crop, based on your 
experience of the past sixteen years ? A. Of course, beans, you 
can along with beans a great deal better than you can peas ; but 
that depends somewhat on the heat. 

Q. You don't think a wide open exemption is necessary often 
in beans, do you ? A. It is necessary for a short time. 
Q. For a short time ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Well, even then you don't think a woman ought to work 
more than fourteen hours a day, do you, in any event? A. I 
don't think it is necessary. 

Q. Well, how many hours do you think it is necessary, even in 
extraordinary occasions, for a woman to work on the bean crop ? 



422 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



A. Why, that might depend some ; it might be majbe one day in 
the whole bean crop, where she would work long hours, or two 
days. 

Q. When you say long hours, how many hours do you mean ? 
A, I mean twelve or fourteen. 

Q. That would be the maximum ? A. Yes. 

Q. Now, the children that snip the beans ; do you enjploy them 
at any age ? A. Not under 10 years old. 

Q. They work in the shed ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And that shed is connected with your factory, isn't it, 
directly ? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You walk right out from the factory into the shed, don't 
you ? A. You can walk into the factory from the shed. 

Q. What machinery is in the shed ? A. There isn't any in the 
shed, not in the bean shed. 

Q. But the bean shed is separated from the machinery shed or 
the machinery portion of the shed by what? A. Why, it is 
boarded up. 

Q. Well, do you mean wooden partitions that extend part of the 
way to the ceiling, to the roof ? A. Yes. 

Q. They don't extend all the way up, do they? A. No; just 
part of the way. 

Q. And you can go very readily from the bean shed to the 
factory shed ? A. You can go, yes. 

Q. Well, what age are the children that work at beans? A. 
Why, I could not tell that. 

Q. Well, do you take them at any age ? A. We take them at 
any age over 10 years old, they can come with their mothers and 
string beans. 

Q. How do you know the age? A. The only way we know, 
we only take their parents' w^ord, and that is all we can do. 

Q. You don't think a child under 10 years of age should under 
any circumstances be permitted to snip beans in a shed or any- 
where else, do you ? A. I don't claim it would injure a child. 

Q. You don't claim it would benefit a child any, do you ? A. It 
might not. Yes, it might not benefit, but it would not injure it. 

Q. You don't do it yourself, do you ? I mean your concern 
does not employ children snipping beans less than 10 years of 
age ? A. Not if we know it. 



Robert Mulree. 



423 



' 






Q. Well, don't you think there ought to be some limitation fixed 
by law, whatever the number of years may be, so that you can 
tell approximately how old a child is ? Don't you think the child 
ought to be made to produce a certificate of some kind ? A. Well, 
I think so. I think if that could be arranged in some way so that 
you would know that you were not employing a child below age; 
but I don't know how you could know it. 

Q. Why did you fix 10 years of age as the limit? A. I fixed 
it in this way. If we bring a family in here to do our work, from 
Buffalo, and they have a few small children, they make plans on 
this little bit of string beans, on earning a little piece of money, 
and it would be very difiicult to get help provided you didn't allow 
them to string beans, the way it is at the present time. 

Q. Unless you increased the price ? A. Well, then, if vou did 
that you would have to increase the price so nobody could buy your 
stuff, if you kept in business. 

Q. Well, you simply employ children 10 years of age because 
the entire families come down and you want to get the mothers 
and sometimes the fathers to work ? A. Yes ; we want to get the 
mothers and fathers. If you did not get the mother to work the 
father would not be here. 

Q. What has that got to do with the children ? A. The chil- 
dren the same way. 

Q. If you didn't allow the children to work the father and 
mother would work just the same, would they not ? A. I think 
the mother and father would come if you allow them to work at 
10 years. 

Q. Over 10 years, do you think the mothers and fathers would 
not come if you said no child under 14 years would be permitted 
to work at snipping beans ? A. I don't think they would. 

Q. Why not? A. I think a great many families would not 
come. 

Q. What are your reasons for that ? We would like to get your 
reasons. A. They would come if you paid them a premium to 
come. 

Q. Well, that is the premium then, that .you pay them, per- 
mitting the children 10 years of age or over to snip beans ? A. We 
don't call that a premium. 



424 



Minutes of Public Heabings. 



Q. That is, it takes the place of the premium you would have 
to pay? A. It helps to support the family ; yes. 

Q. You can get plenty of girls and boys over 14 years of age to 
work snipping beans t A. I could not say that. 

Q. You have never tried during vacation time ? A. I have seen 
it where children went to school and we had difficulty getting the 
beans strung. 

Q. You have very little stringing of beans after children go to 
school ? A. We have some. 

Q. How much of it ? A. We have had lots of times. 

Q. For what time ? A. Well, I can't tell you what time. 

Q. It doesn't extend beyond the second week in September at 
any time, does it ? A. [NTot to any extent, no. 

Q. Well then, you would have very little trouble getting chil- 
dren over 14 years of age to do this work? A. Well, you might 
have considerable trouble. 

Q. Well, you don't know, as a matter of fact ? A. Well, I do 
know that lots of these little children will string as many beans 
as a grown person. 

By Miss Dreier : 

Q. Have you any record of how many beans all the children 
string ? I mean how important is their stringing to the company ? 
A. Why, I could not say that. 

Q. You don't know. You have no record at all of the number 
of beans the children will string ? A. No. There is lots of them 
string that their mother and sister work with them and maybe 
they don't string at all and sometimes they do. It is not com- 
pulsory. They do as they like. 

By Assemblyman Jackson : 

Q. Have you ever had any trouble in keeping these children 
under 10 years of age away from the shed ? A. I have had, yes. 

Q. What sort of trouble? Who makes the objection, the 
parents ? A. The mothers and fathers ; yes. There was a case 
yesterday. 

Q. What was it?, A. I insisted on them staying out of the 
shed at the start, and it grew worse and worse so that we finally 
got into practically a riot yesterday — not as bad as that, but the 
mothers got very angry and the result was the timekeeper went 



t 



Egbert Mulree. 



425 



to keep the boy out and the mother went right at him, and bit his 
finger right through there (indicating). 

By Assemblyman Jackson: 

Q. When do you start stringing beans here? A. Just twice 
before yesterday. 

Q. When were you stringing beans before yesterday, any other 
day this week ? A. Yes, I think — I could not say. ^ 

Q. Did you have any trouble then keeping children out ? A. 
We have had more or less trouble since we started. 

By Mr. Shientag : 

Q. Did you have the ten-year limit last year? A. Yes. We 
tried to live up to the ten-year limit last year, but I can't say we 
enforced it like we did this year. 

Q. Well, why did you begin to enforce it this vear ? A. Well, 
for the simple reason that we made up our mind we would try to 
live up to the ten-year limit and do the best we could at it. 

Q. Now, are there any other crops or fruits that yon can, in 
which a^omen are employed and in which they have to work over. 
time in your factory, in which it is necessary for them to work 
overtime for some limited period? How about the com 
crop ? A. Why, I don't know about the corn crop. That is some- 
thing that you can carry better than you can the string beans or 
peas. And still, it doesn't do corn any good to lay around, where 
you can it, but to save it you can carry it over night and get along 
a gi-eat de^l better than you can with peas and beans. 

Q. Well, there isn't any pressing necessity for overtime work 
on com, is there ? A. Why, I certainly would not want — 

Q. I want your view? A. As a rule it would not be as neces- 
sary to the working of women as it would be to string beans and 
peas, and peas is worse than string beans. 

Q. Have you had occasion to work women overtime on corn, 
that you can remember ? A. Yes. 

Q. On what occasion? What were the circumstances f A. 
Why, that I could not say, uTiless it was because of the large crop 
of corn, more than we could take care of. I know there are some 
years corn is a much bigger crop than others, and it might be 
necessary to work longer on it than other times. 



i 



426 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. Well, if it is necessary to work just a little longer you can 
get additional help, can't you ? A. Xot always. 

Q. Well, should it not be your duty to get additional help if 
you have to work a little longer on one or two occasions? A. 
Well, it might be your duty, but you can't always get help. 

Q. What efforts have you made to get help ? A. We make all 
kinds of efforts. 

Q. Will you describe those efforts ? Tell us what they are ? A. 
Even in this late pea season, when we get on a rush time, I have 
sent men out to look up help. 

Q. WTiere did you send them ? A. I have sent them wherever 
they can find them. 

Q. Do you keep a register of people that apply for work here ? 
A. Xo. 

Q. During the slack season? A. N'o. 

Q. When you need them do you advertise for them ? A. Some- 
times we do. I don't know that I have this year. Sometimes I 
do, and sometimes I do not. 

Q. Well, are those the only three crops then, in which it is 
necessary to employ women overtime? A. I should think that 
would be the only three that I know of. 

By Miss Dbeier: 

Q. You would not have to do it in tomatoes? A. 'No, ma'am. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. How about the fruits, apples ? A. I don't think you would 
have to in any fruits. It is not necessary, because fruits you can 
carry over night and take care of, but peas you can't. They de- 
teriorate ; and string beans too. You might have a piece of beans 
to-day and it is nice and in fresh condition, and you could carry 
it two days, but if it was picked and you carry it over two or three 
days it might rust over night and spoil. 

Q. Is there any necessity at all for working women overtime 
during the months of October and November, on account of crop 
conditions ? A. Why, that I could not say, unless it would be in 
corn. 

Q. Well, you don't have corn in October? A. We do some- 
times. 






f 



Robert Mulree. 



427 



Q. How late ? A. Well, that I can't say. Sometimes it might 
run along until the tenth of the month of October. 

Q. But it would not run until November, would it ? A. No. 

Q. How late did you have corn last year, do you remember? 
A. I could not say the date. 

Q. You have a record of that in the office, haven't you? A. 
Yes. 

Q. Well, wasn't there considerable overtime among the female 
employees in this cannery after the corn crop had been disposed 
of ? A. Why, there may have been two or three hours ; may have 
been ten or twelve hours a day. 

Q. There is no pressing necessity for that, is there ? A. I think 
you could eliminate that. 

Q. You could eliminate that ? A. I think so, after the canning 
season is over; I think you could. 

By Miss Dreieb: 

Q. Why is it that you pay more money in the tomato season 
or how is it the women can make so much more money ? A. That 
is piece work; you put them on time work and they would not 
make any more. 

Q. How do you pay them in piece work ? A. By the pail. 

Q. How big is the pail ? A. Fourteen quart pail. 

Q. Has it always been a 14-quart pail? A. No; last year it 
was not. 

Q. What was it last year ? A. A 12-quart pail. I figured on a 
14-quart pail, but we got a 12-quart. 

Q. Last year? A. Yes. 

Q. What happened there ? A. Why, it happened that they did 
more while peeling tomatoes and after I discovered that it was a 
12-quart pail I could not change it; I thought it was a 14-quart 
pail. 

Q. So that they made much more money than you expected? 
A. Yes. 

Q. But this year it is again a 14-quart pail ? A. Yes. 

Q. What will the price be this year? A. Same price, but a 
14-quart pail. 

Q. But you made money on the 12-quart pail last year? A. 
Why, I could not say as to that 



428 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. We have a record here taken from your time book which 
shows that during the week beginning October 23d, Maiy Meyers, 
'No, 69, worked 83 hours, charged to shipping. Do you know 
what kind of work she did ? A. She looks after the label depart- 
ment, getting out of labels and sorting of labels and looking after 
that part of it. 

Q. There is no pressing necessity for her working over time, 
is there? A. Why, I think that could be eliminated in some way. 
I will tell you how that came about, while you are asking about 
that. The tomato crop was very late and in order to tell what 
we could deliver to our customers we had to wait an unusual 
length of time to find out what we were going to have, and when 
we did that, that caused us to hurry our shipments out. 

Q. That is simply one of the instances that will occur in any 
business, canneiT or otherwise ? A. Yes. 

By Assemblyman Jackson: 

Q. At the same time, you could have put on help enough to 
overcome that ? A. I don't know. I put on all I could possibly 
get at that time. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. Do yon work as many women during the tomato season as 
you do during the bean and pea season ? A. Why, we work more, 
that is we expect to. 

By Asseml)lyman Jackson: 

Q. Do you work any children during that season under 16 
years? A. Ko. 

Q. Do you make a prohibition here of any children under 16 
being allowed in the factory or any place when school starts? 
A. Yes. I don't know about when school starts. 

Q. In previous years you have never made a prohibition of 
keeping children of school age away from the factory? A. In 
school hours, yes. 

Q. You keep them away during school hours? A. Yes. 

By Miss Deeier: 

Q. In iN'ovember a woman worked 79 hours and 80 hours and 
a quarter. Now, what did you do ? Can yon tell me what that 



J. S. Berry. 



429 



i'' 



woman did? This woman is Mary Meyers. A. She is a fore- 
lady in charge of the labels, shipj^ing and so on. 

Q. And Josephine Lattner; what would she be doing, pasting 
labels or shipping? A. Yes; shipping. 

Q. Is there any one reason why, in the shipping department, 
there should be over time? A. Why, I think that could be got 
around where you would not have to work any over time. 

Q. How many women do you keep in the shipping department ? 
A. AVell, that is according to what we are doing, what we are 
shipping. If we have lots of orders, why, we increase the num- 
ber of help. 

Q. There is no reason why any woman in the shipping depart- 
ment should work fifteen hours a day, is there? A. I can^t see 
any reason why she should. 

Q. And that could be easily changed? A. Yes. 

Q. Have the seats baclvs attached to them? A. Yes, I think 
most of our seats have; some of them haven't. They take them 
off and put them sort of under. 



Hearing of the State Factory Investigating Commission, 
Held at the Plant of the Batavia Preserving Com- 
pany, Batavia, N, Y., August 15, 1912. 

Present: 

Hon. Edward D. Jackson, Chairman pro tern, 
Hon. Cyrus W. Phillips^ 
Miss Mary E. Dreier. 

Appearances: 

Bernard L. S'iiientag, Esq., Assistant Counsel. 

J. S. Berry, being duly swom, testified as follows: 

Direct examination bv Mr. Shientao: 

Q. What is the name of your cwicem? A. Batavia Preserv- 
ing Co. 

Q. What is your connection with the Batavia Preser\dng Co. ? 
A. Superintendent of it here. 

Q. How long have you been superintendent? A. Oh, I have 
been here 3 or 4 vears. 



430 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. How long have you been in the canning business altogether ? 
A. About thirty years. 

Q. What crops do you can at this cannery ? A. Only vege- 
tables; peas, string beans and spinach. 

Q. What was your output for peas last season, approximately ? 
A. I think about 30,000 cases. 

Q. And what do you figure the approximate output will be 
this year? A. Well, I don't think it will go quite near that, al- 
though I could not say for sure. 

Q. What was your output of beans last season? A. About 
the same as peas. 

Q. Do you employ women in the canning of these ci-ops, peas 
and beans? A. Yes. 

Q. How many women did you employ last year, approxi- 
mately? A. Somewheres between 200 and 300 at some times; 
some of the time we had only 40 or 50. 

Q. Do you employ any children in the snipping of the beans ? 
A. Xo. 

Q. Who does the snipping of the beans ? A. Women. 
Q. How do you pay them for snipping beans ? A. Pay them 
bv the basket. 

Q. Well, what does a basket weigh? A. Weighs auywliere 
from 8 to 10 pounds, depending on sizes of bean. 

Q. What do you pay for the beans here? A. Ten cents a 
basket. 

Q. That is around a cent and a cent and quarter a pound ? A. 
About that. 

Q. Do you experience any difficulty in finding women to do 
this work ? A. Xo great difficulty ; no. 

Q. Do you ever employ children in snipping beans? A. Xot 
in the shed. 

Q. These women that snip beans work in the shed ? A. ' Yes. 

Q. We would like to have your views as to the necessity for 
the employment of children in snipping beans, based upon your 
experience in the canning industry. A. Well, so far as the 
children are concerned, I don't know that it is really necessary. 
The only thing is, the time of year the beans come in here the 
children might better be working than running around the street. 



J. S. Berby. 



431 



t 



I 



Q. Irrespective of the age? A. Well, not young children 6 
or 7, around that ; but above 10. 

By Assemblyman Jackson: 

Q. Above 10, you say? A. Yes. 

Q. Well, don't you think a child of 10 should have a little 
recreation? A. They could just as well have that in the shed or 
out in the yard somewheres, stringing beans without running 
around the street, is my idea. Of course, we don't employ them, 
or won't have them around. 

Bv Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Why don't you employ them ? A. Because the law says not. 

Q. Well, would you employ them if the law permitted you to ? 
A. I should, and would be willing to ; but the law says not, and 
we don't calculate to violate any law, and don't do it intentionally, 
if we do do it. But we don't have children around and don't 
allow them in the building under 16 years old, anyway. 

Q. Have you got an adequate supply of woman labor to do 
this work ? A. Well, we have mostly women here. 

By Assemblyman Jackson : 

Q. Is it labor from the village here ? A. Yes ; most of it. 

Q. Do you bring any from Buffalo or any other place ? A. !N"o, 

sir. 

Q. Any foreign labor ? A. No. 

Q. Have you done any of that in the past? A. No. 

Q. Do you get sufficient labor here? A. Yes. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. You have been able to handle the packs successfully without 
the help of children, haven't you ? A. Oh, we get along very well 
here. Of course, there are times when we are crowded here with 
beans, especially ; it depends upon the season in reference to that. 
Some seasons crowd us, and if we could use children it would 
help us out greatly. 

By Assemblyman Jackson: 

Q. What has been your experience in the employment of women 
overtime in your sheds, excessive hours more than ten ; have you 
bad much of that ? A. No hours over twelve, anyway. 



432 



Minutes of Public Heaeikgs. 



Q. Have you got any cases where they run fourteen, fifteen 
and sixteen ? A. Oh, no. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Well, is it necessary to employ women more than ten hours 
except in certain limited periods? A. Oh. no; only just when 
we are in the rush; that is the only time. 

Q. When does that rush occur, in your experience? A. The 
stuff comes faster than we can take care of it; depends upon the 
season in reference to that. Sometimes it will come along so we 
can work it all right, then again the weather seasons crowd us, 
dry and hot weather, that crowds the stuff onto us. 

Q. How often, in your experience, has it been necessary to 
employ women more than ten hours a day ? For how many days 
or how many weeks have you found it necessary to do that in the 
past ? A, Just in the rush of our season: that is the onlv wav I 
could tell about that. 

Q. For how long does the season of peas last ? A. Well, the 
peas last from about the first of July along into the middle of 
August. 

Q. That is about four to six weeks? A. Yes; and the beans 
start in about the first of August and run until September ; about 
six or eight weeks. 

Q. AVell, during the pea season for how many days do you think 
it would be necessary to employ women more than ten hours a day, 
based upon your past experience ? A. We use very few women on 
peas. 

Q. Whom do you use on peas ? A. N^ot over twenty-five to 
thirty women, out on the picking tables where you see them now. 
Q. Who does the bulk of the work ? A. The meiL 
Q. What do you pay the women for their work on peas ? A. 
Ten cents an hour. 

Q. What do you pay the men ? A. One dollar and fifty cents 
•to two dollars. 

Q. For how many hours ? A. They work any hours they want 
to. 

Q. Well, are they paid more for overtime? A. Yes; they are 
paid by the hour. 



J. S. Bekry. 



433 



V 



X 



y 



II 



Q. What do they get an hour ? A. Twenty cents an hour would 
be $2 ; $1.50 would be fifteen cents an hour. 

By AssembljTuan jACKeoN: 

Q. And overtime the same rate? A. Yes. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Did you ever work women over twelve hours a day under 
any circumstances? A. Not the women; we use the men after 
that time. 

Q. When you have a rush you use the women up to that time 
and then use the men? A. Yes. 

Q. And do you find the men do the work satisfactorily? A. 
Well, they do it in a way. Of course they don't do it as good as 
the women. 

By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. The women only make eighty and ninety cents a day ? A. 
They make $1. 

Q. At ten cents? A. Yes. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Has it been necessary to use a woman in the rush season, 
the average more than sixty hours a week ? A. We don't do it. 
Q. You don't do it? A. J^o; we have to get along without it. 

By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. Do the women have to work overtime to make more than $1 
a day? A. Yes. They are willing to work. We have to drive 
them away to get rid of them when their time is up. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. In the six or eight weeks in the pea or bean season, how 
many days do you think it would be necessary to work women 
more than ten hours a day ? A. I could not answer that question ; 
that depends altogether upon the season and weather and crop 
conditions. 

By Assembhman Jackson: 

Q. Do you believe it is right to work women excessive hours, 
even if they wish, for short periods ? I am talking now from the 



434 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



viewpoint of health or morals of the women. A. Well, I don't 
know. You take a woman that is willing to work without com- 
pelling a woman, if she is willing to work overtime, I don't know 
as it would hurt her any more to work here than go home and 
work. 

Q. You understand the law taking effect October 1st exempts 
the canning factories as to women for hours over ten hours a day. 
There is a great agitation throughout the State as to whether that 
is right or wrong, and you are a man of experience and should 
be able to give the Commission your views on the subject. For 
instance, would you limit the hours for women, except for the 
fact it was injurious to her health? A. Why, no. 

Q. Speaking from the viewpoint of necessity, or a matter of 
making money from the canning of vegetables, would you work 
a woman excessive hours up to the point of deterioration in her 
health ? A. No, I would not work her if it was against her health. 

Q. But you would work her but for the health ? A. Well, if 
it was necessary. I would not do it if it was not necessary. The 
stuff is here to can and we have to take care of it or throw it away. 

Bv Assemblvman Phillips: 

Q. How have you been able to get along with ten hours a day 
when the other canners haven't 'i A. We always do. 

Q. How have you always got along with ten hours to a day ? 
A. Because we don't have the stuff to can, maybe. 

Q. Don't you have as much stuff as you intend to have? A. 
Some seasons we don't. We haven't this year ; away short. 

Q. What is the reason ? A. Dry weather season. 

By Miss Dbeier: 

Q. When you contract for the number of acres you want of 
peas and beans, do you consider the number of employees you 
have to handle that stuff \ A. Well, we generally consider about 
the capacity that we can run. 

Q. Well, how do you calculate that? A. Oh, from past ex- 
perience. 

Q. Suppose you tell us. What would you do now for next 
season? On what would you base your calculation? A. Same 
as we have done this year and past years. 



J. S. Berry. 



435 



Q. Well, what is that? A. We know we have done that 
amount of stuff and we contract the same amount of stuff. 

Q. You mean to say, you have been able to carry so many 
acres of peas this year without overworking the women and so 
you calculate you can do it again next year? A. We calculate 
the capacity of the machines we have to take care of so much 
every season, unless there is exceptionally hot weather and it is 
all done in a few weeks or a few days, then it takes some over- 
time to get it through or else throw it away. 

By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. How much overtime did you have to put in last year ? A. 
I could not tell you without looking it up. 

Q. Do your books show how much overtime you put in last 
year, that is over the ten hours a day? A. I would not know 
without going back to the records and looking it up. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Have you lost any money on beans last year through waste 
or deterioration because you could not get them out in time ? A. 
Xo, I don't know as we have, because we have devised means 
some way to get along by using men and letting the women go 
and getting them out that way. 

Q. I noticed two loads of pea vines, I think, coming in a few 
minutes ago. Are those to be gotten out to-night? A. Yes; 
have to get them out. 

Q. Well, how long will you work your table to-night to get 
those out? A. How long? 

Q. Yes ; how long will it take ? A. I don't know how long it 
will take the men; they run until they get through. 

Q. And the women? A. They stop. 

Q. What time? A. We don't work them overtime. 

Q. At what time ? A. At 9 o'clock. There are a lot of these 
women that have only worked a few hours to-day. 

Q. When did these women that stop work at 9 o'clock, start 
this morning? A. Seven. 

Q. What period do they have for luncheon ? A. An hour. 

Q. Do they take an hour, or do they work right on ? A. We 
quit at VZ and start at 1, and quit at 6 and start at 7. 



436 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



?l 



By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. They work about twelve Lours, then ? A. Yes. 

By Miss Dreier : 

Q. You have been able to run this plant successfully without 
working the women over sixty hours a week ? A. Yes. 

By Assemblyman Phillips : 

Q. They will work twelve hours to-day, these women will ^ A. 
Yes ; I suppose they will. 

Bv Miss Dreier : 

Q. You have been able to run this factory successfully without 
working the women over sixty hours a week ? A. We have, simply 
by using men, that is all. We try — we run sixty hours a week 
and stop using women and use men in the places. 

Q. And in spite of the fact you have had to pay twice as much 
to the men, you made a successful output ? A. Yes ; but we lost 
all that much of it, of course. 

Q. You lost that difference in wages, but you nevertheless made 
a success of it ? A. Yes, sir ; we have had to. 

By Assemblyman Jackson : 

Q. How much has the rate you paid y6ur employees varied in 
the last five years ? Have you raised it ? A. Well, yes ; we have 
raised them a little. We used to pay $1.25 for most of our men, 
$1.50 and $2 was the highest. 

Q. Was that a voluntary increase you gave them or because 
you could not get the help ? A. Yes ; voluntary. 

Q. You could have got the help for the same rate ? A. No, you 
could not get it now ; we gave them a higher rate. 

Q. How much overtime do the men put in ? A. I could not tell. 
Here are the actual pay-rolls showing the overtime and the hours 
for each individual date — the hours for each individual date, 
under the State law, were kept separate, according to the recom- 
mendation of the State Labor Department, but at the end of the 
season those were destroyed with a lot of other papers of this 
factory. 



J. S. Berry. 



437 



Q. Doesn^t your pay-roll show the same statement ? A. No ; it 
shows the total number of hours for any one person each week. 

Q. You probably worked more overtime last year in your pea 
season than you did this year ? A. I should say so ; I don't know. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Well, you complied with the provisions of the law last year 
so far as the sixty hours a week for women was concerned, even 
during the pea season, didn't you? A. Oh, yes; we always did 
that. We never violated a law on that part of it. 

By Miss Dreier : 

Q. How long has this factory been running ? A. Forty or fifty 
years, I guess ; been running as long ago as I can remember, con- 
siderably over thirty years. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Well, how long have you been keeping within the law ? A. 
Since the law was started. I could not tell just when that was. 

Q. How much overtime do the men work, generally, during the 
rush hours ? A. Oh, well, I can't tell about that without looking 
it up. They run quite a little overtime when they are running 
heavy. For instance, on June 24th I find eighty-one hours, eighty- 
five, eighty-three, one hundred and one, eighty-six, eighty-four; 
there is another at twenty-seven, twenty-five, eighty-two, ninety- 
one, eighty-seven, ninety-two, seventy-nine^ ninety-two, one hun- 
dred and ten, ninety-two, eighty. 

Q. Those are for men? A. Yes. 

Q. Will you let us have the hours for women during that same 
period? A. Beginning sixty hours, sixty and one-half, sixty-two 
and one-half, sixty-five, sixty-five, fifty-one, sixty-five, fifty-nine, 
fifty-six, sixty-six, fifty-six, sixty, fifty-eight, fifteen, forty-three, 
sixty-one and one-half, sixty, sixty-five and one-half, twenty, sixty- 
four and one-half, sixty-two and one-half, sixty, forty-one, fifty- 
seven, forty and one-half, fifty-seven and one-half, thirty, thirty- 
nine, sixty, forty, twenty-eight, fifty-eight and one-half, forty- 
seven, sixty-four and one-half. 

Q. If a woman works sixty-seven hours a week that is a viola- 
tion of the Labor Law, isn't it ? A. Yes ; anything over sixty is 



438 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



considered, 1 suppose, a violation of the Labor Law, although thej 
have said to us if they run two or three hours over occasionally 
they would not consider that a violation. 

By Assemblyman Jackson : 

Q. What kind of work would these women be on? A. The 
same as you see them on now ; they would be on peas. 

Q. Sorting peas ? A. Yes ; they would be selecting the inferior 
peas out of the others. 

Kaymond M. Decker, being duly sworn, testified as follows : 

Direct examination by Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Are you connected with the Batavia Preserving Company? 
A. I am. 

Q. In what capacity ? A. I am appointed as cashier. I don't 
know what capacity it might be. I have charge of all the sales 
in both factories, also all of the office work of both factories. I am 
appointed as cashier and have general charge of all sales. 

Q. For how long have you been acting in that capacity ? A. A 
little over seven years. 

Q. How long have you been in the canning business, altogether ? 
A. That is for the same length of time, seven years. 

Q. You are familiar with the operations of these canneries? 
A. In a general way ; yes. 

Q. And the employment of women and children ? A. Yes. 

Q. Well, we would be very glad to have your views, general IVy 
on the necessity for the employment of children under 14 years 
of age in snipping beans and other operations in the canning 
sheds. A. Why, under 14 years of age, my personal opinion is 
that there is no necessity for it; that is my personal view. 

Q. And your company has gotten along without employing 
children? A. We have for the time that that law has been in 
force. We don't aim to violate the law. There was a day when 
we first began the enforcement of the law that we had to work — 
we had a great diflftculty to get the women to work without bringing 
their children, particularly those who were in the habit of helping^ 
to supply the family with funds. 

Q. How did you overcome that difficulty? A. By sim|)ly re- 



Raymond M. Decker. 



439 



fusing the employment to women unless they left the children at 
home. 

Q. You didn't find the women stayed away? A. At the be- 
ginning there was a tendency in that direction because they could 
in some cases find employment in other lines where they could use 
the children. 

Q. What are your views about the employment of women over- 
time ? A. My views are that a woman, if she is in good health — 
she of course must be her judge and the only judge of that feature, 
because we can't tell whether a woman is in good health or not ; but 
if she is in good health, so that she believes it is safe for her to 
work overtime, I think she should be allowed to work overtime. 

Q. Don't you know that when a woman works overtime the 
safety factor doesn't enter into it; she is simply trying to make 
more money ? A. I realize that. But when we shut her off work- 
ing here she doesn't stop if she can find anything to do at home. 

Q. She does the work at home anyhow when she works here; 
she doesn't have a servant to do it. A. That is true ; but she — 
I don't mean that kind of work, but anything she can find to do for 
the making of money. 

Bv Miss Dreier : 

Q. Have you found that to be the case with your employees? 
A. I think it would be generally the case wherever they could find 
anything to do. We haven't made an investigation. The only 
point would be where we make an investigation along that line at 
all is to ascertain whether they have worked any place else before 
they commence to work here so that we won't be violating the law 
as to the number of hours they work. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Under the law that takes effect this fall there will be no time 
limit upon the hours of labor in the canning industry. Do you 
feel then that you will probably employ them more than ten hours 
or more than sixty hours a week, if they want to work ? A. Only 
in the case that Mr. Berry has cited, in some days in the canning 
of peas and I suppose some few days in the canning of beans. 
I won't say no, sir, because we have gotten along with- 



440 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



out it in the past, but it becomes desirable, that fourteen or thir- 
teen hours, whereas the next day will be light, or if not that day, 
during the week there will be several light days where the work 
won't run to more than nine or ten hours. 

Q. Then instead of employing men to do this work as you do 
now, you will permit the women to work ? A. If the conditions 
require it that would be our view of it. 

Q. In other words, that would dispense with the extra work for 
the men, is that the idea « A. Where that class of work could be 
done by the women, yes. 

By Assemblyman Phillips : 

Q. You would let the women work overtime ? A. Yes ; but not 
excessive hours. 

Q. What would you call excessive hours ? A. I would consider 
anything over fifteen hours strictly excessive. 

Q. Well, take some canneries, women work over 100 hours in a 
single week. A. Well, you can't say that of our factory. 

Q. Well, what would you think of that condition ? A. Well, I 
should think it not a good condition. I don't know what w^e would 
do under the same circumstances. 

Q. You don't think that really is necessary in the canning of 
peas, do you ? A. It don't seem so. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. You don't think a wide open exemption is necessary, and it 
is only necessary to work women overtime for a limited period ? 
A. Yes. 

Q. How would you place that limited period ? A. The number 
of days, do you mean ? 

Q. Yes. A. I should say during our season of peas not to ex- 
ceed ten days, separate days and not consecutive days, for the 
season, would be more than would be required; and there is a 
period of string beans which runs from about the middle of 
August to about the first of October ; I should not sav more than 
fifteen days of that fifteen-hour limit 

Q. And in any event not to exceed how manv hours a dav ? A. 
I should not say over fifteen hours. 



J. S. Berry. 



441 



Q. And how many hours per week would you consider the 
limit, even in the rush season ? A. Why, placing an estimate on 
it, my estimate would be seventy-five hours as liberal Of course, 
we never have come up against that condition because we have tried 
to keep within the sixty hours limit as near as we could. 

Q. Well, you haven't had any difficulty to get the men to do the 
women's work if you paid them men's wages? A. There has 
been no difficulty, except that they could not handle that class of 
work as the women can. They are unfamiliar with it. 

Q. How about the employment of women in the capping of 
cans ? Have you ever tried to employ men on that work ? A. I 
would have to let Mr. Berry answer that question because I have 
hid no experience in it. 

Mr. Berry : !N"o, we never use women to do that. 

By Assemblyman Jackson: 

Q. Do you mean just laying the cap on the can? 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Yes. A. Well, we use them for that; but I thought you 
meant the soldering of the cap. 

Q. Do you think that is a fit employment for women ? Could 
you not get boys over eighteen to do that work ? A. They could 
do it; yes, sir; just as good. 

J. S. Berry, recalled, testified as follows: 

Direct examination continued by Assemblyman Phillips : 

Q. Some factories use men for capping, don't they ? A. Yes ; 
but we don't. 

By Assemblyman Jackson: 

Q. Don't you think that rather tedious for a girl to sit there 
through a period of, say five hours, w4thout getting off a stool, 
and capping those cans ? A. Well, she can get off and change. 

Q. Don't you think that very tedious under ordinary circum- 
stances ? A. I would not expect a girl to stay there all the time, 
but change off every hour. 



442 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. Don't YOU pay a higher wage to the girls to do that ? A. 
Xo ; about the same thing. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. What do you mean, change off ? A. Put a girl in her place. 

Q. What does she do ? A. Looks over peas on that pea table. 

Q. But do you make that a practice of varying the employ- 
ment that way ? A. Yes ; change them around all the time. 

Q. Isn't there a machine that places the caps satisfactorily? 
A. There is one, but I don't think it is very satisfactory. I never 
saw it used, and never used it. All I know, there is one, but I 
don't know whether it is satisfactory or not. We don't use that 
kind of a can, anyway, very much, only on our peas. On the 
beans we use the other can. 

Q. Don't you think that women ought to have seats with backs 
attached to them? A. Well, I don't know. That is about the 
same thing. Some women don't like to sit down anyway; they 
would rather stand up than sit down. The stool is higher and 
they can use it if they want. 

Raymond M. Decker, recalled. 

Direct examination by Miss Dreier: 

Q. You say you are cashier in one factory? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you obey the law in the other factory ? A. Yes. The 
only difference is in the other factory we employ children between 
fourteen and fifteen, if they provide themselves with a school 
certificate. 

Q. What do you put up there ? A. Only fruits. 

Q. And do you exceed the hours there, or do you have to put 
the men on ? A. Yes; the men have to be kept overtime, but the 
women work — we have to keep them within the hour limit. Of 
course, they run over an hour and a half or two hours and some- 
times three hours a week. That is only in the rush season, prin- 
cipally cherries. 

By Assembl;^Tnan Jackson: 

Q. In that class of canning, what is your opinion as to weekly 
limitation of hours for women? How much do you think the 



Raymond M. Decker. 



443 



industry at the present time could stand as a limitation, sixty, 
eixty-six or seventy ? A. Why, I should say that if they should 
sustain the sixty-hour limit so far as the weekly limit is con- 
cerned, that they might be allowed an occasional day of sixteen 
hours instead of holding them to twelve. 

Q. But still have a weekly limit of sixty? You think the in- 
dustrv can stand that ? A. I know it would in our case. 

Q. Do you work on Sundays? A. Sometimes we would like 
to work Sundays ; we have to work occasionally here on Sundays. 

By Assemblyman Phillips: 

Q. How large is Batavia, the population ? A. Eleven thousand 
six -hundred, I understand, is the last census. 

Q. How many employees have you? A. They run between 
200 and 300 ; when we are busy on string beans the number runs 
up to 300 or 400, sometimes over 300. 

Q. Is that counting the women in the shed ? A. Yes. 

Q. If your business was of a size requiring 500 people, would 
you be able to get them all right without working overtime ? A. 
I don't know that I could answer that question. Mr. Berry knows 
more about the difficulty of securing help here. It has been my 
understanding we have had plenty up to 300 or 400. 

Q. Suppose you needed 500, than what would happen? A. 
Well, I don't know. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. Can you tell me whether the dividends of this company 
compare favorably with the dividends of some of the other con- 
cerns ? A. I could not answer that question. All I could say is 
that our showing is usually favorable, so far as this concern is 
concerned ; but I don't know what other concerns do. 

Bv Mr. Shientag: 
*.■ 

Q. What is the capitalization of this company? A. Seventy- 
five thousand dollars. 

Q. What was the last dividend ? A. There have been no divi- 
dends declared ; we simply place the amount in the surplus fund. 

Q. What is the surplus amount? A. The amount placed to 
the credit of the surplus last year was about $27,000. 



444 



Minutes of Public Heabings. 



Q. And the year before? A. The year before was about 
$16,000. 

Q. How long has the capitalization been $75,000 ? A. Well, 
as long as I can find on the record; since about 1894. There is 
some years when that has gone the other way. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. You have few stockholders, apparently, then? A. The 
stockholders are all within five or six. The officers are all in 
Chicago. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Have there been any material additions to the plant in tlie 
way of new buildings, since 1904? A. :N'ot in the way of new 
buildings. There has been in this plant additions to the east of 
the factory there, the sheds that you went in. But we are con- 
tinually adding in the way of machines, discarding old machines 
and putting in new. 

Q. Do you know what the assessed valuation of this plant is ? 
A. The assessed valuation of the property here, I think, is 
$9,000; at Middleport we have an assessed valuation of $35,000. 

Q. When you speak of the capital stock, do you mean the 
capital stock covering both? A. Yes; that covers both factories. 

Adjourned subject to call of the Chairman. 



MINTTTES OF THE MEETING OF THE NEW YOEK STATE FAC- 
TORY INVESTIGATING COMMISSION, PAET FOTJETEEN, SU- 
PREME COURT, N. Y., SEPTEMBER 23, 1912, 10^30 O'CLOCK 
A. M. 



P7'esent: 

Hon. Egbert F. Wagner, Chairman. 

Hon. Alfked E. Smith, Vice-Chairman. 

Hon. Edward D. Jackson. 

Hon. Cyrus W. Phillips. 

Miss Mary E. Dreier. 

Mr. F. A. Tierney, Secretary. 

Appearances: 

Hon. Abram I. Elkus, Counsel to the Commission. 
Bernard Sheintag, Esq., Assistant Counsel. 

The Chairjvlan : The Commission will come to order. 

Mr. Elkus: Mr. Chairman, the purpose of this hearing is 
to present a certain number of tentative bills which have been 
drafted, for criticism and suggestion ; these bills, as I understand, 
do not emanate from the Commission officially, but are presented 
for the sole purpose of criticism and suggestion.* 

Carlisle Xorwood, Esq., addressed the Commission. 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Mr. !?^orwood, who do you represent? 

A. The Realty League. 

Q. Will you state what the league consists of, how many mem- 
bers it has, and what its purposes are, and then ^ve will be very 
glad to hear you ? 

A. The Realty League was incorporated some ten years ago; 
it represents not less than two hundred millions in real estate 
ownership in this city ; it is comprised mostly of large owners ; it 
represents many classes of buildings, but mostly what would be 

♦These tentatives are set forth at the end of Volume IV of the Report. 

[445] 



446 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



called large investment buildings, as well as apartment houses 
and loft buildings and that class ; it does not represent the smaller 
holdings, which are very fully represented in many other organi- 
zationa It wa3 qrganized originally to protect its members 
against illegal rates, and demands made upon the owners from 
time to time by various bureaus and municipal agencies under 
the color of law ; it has successfully in every instance so far re- 
sisted the unlawful demands made upon its owners, and as these 
owners are subject at all times to receiving orders and require- 
ments wholly unjustified by law and wholly illegal issued either 
in ignorance or for some purpose which ignorance would not 
justify, the members of this league organized for the purpose of 
protecting themselves. The first thing which called them into 
existence was an attempt made by a fire alarm company which 
is still in existence. Through co-operation with the fire depart- 
ment about ten years ago, they sought to compel wholly unneces- 
sary installations of its fire alarm system and the installation con- 
sisted of this : The company had obtained from the fire commis- 
sioner, wholly without warrant of law, or without precedent even 
in malpractice, a permit by which this company could use the 
public service of the fire department in connection with its pri- 
vate service, and the scheme was that the fire department would 
issue an order requiring the installation of automatic alarms ; the 
installation consisted in putting in one of these little alarm boxes 
in an apartment house or other building at a very exorbitant 
price to the owner, many times what would be the cost and a 
handsome profit, and the payment of an annual fee after that, 
and then a wire was run up from the place where it was installed, 
ordinarily in the hall of the building, up over the roof, and that 
was connected with the nearest lamp-post having in it the alarm 
system of the fire department. 

Q. Mr. Norwood, I don't want to interrupt you, nor to get you 
off, but the purpose of our meeting here is to take up these pro- 
posed measures and to remedy existing conditions, and hear your 
suggestions and criticisms of them. 

A. I was answering the question wliich counsel put to me; 
what the league was. 
Q. I understand. 



Carlisle Xorwood. 



447 



The Chairman : You are giving us things that I don't know 
that we are very much interested in. 

A. I think so. You will find that the bills provide for the in- 
stallation of fire alarms — 

By Mr. Elkus : 

Q. Take up a bill. 

A. As to the bills themselves: We have come here to-day to 
make some suggestions or amendments to the law covering this 
subject: we also will later offer criticisms of the bill. We only 
got them on last Monday afternoon. With reference to practical 
matters they have some provisions which are very complicated 
and which will have to be examined carefully by experts, and 
they are being examined now, but that examination has not been 
completed; but the whole subject of the law, this fire prevention 
law is before this Commission, this factory law. Upon that we 
want to make some suggestions in connection with the present 
law, and I wish first to read to the Commission a communication 
which sets forth generally some of the things that we ask; 
it is addressed to your Honorable Commission: (Reading from 
paper.) " The undersigned, a committee appointed by the 
Realty League, to co-operate with your Commission in the pro- 
duction of a perfected fire prevention law, desire respectfully to 
submit the following considerations, which we believe should be 
kept in view in the preparation of an Act affecting the City. 

" First : Conditions here are peculiar, factory buildings be- 
ing rarely used as factories by their owners, but on the contrary 
leased out in part or floors to many different tenants, carrying 
on many diverse kinds of manufacturing. We believe therefore 
the best results would be obtained by keeping sharply differen- 
tiated the obligations of the owners of the factory building, and 
those of the tenant or tenants using the same; as the careful 
management and many necessary precautions upon which the 
actual prevention of fire finally depends, are almost entirely in the 
control of the tenant. We believe it will be conceded that when 
the owner of a building has turned it or a part of it over to the 
tenant complete and fitted up in compliance with the laws, ordi- 
nances and regulations in force, that he has done all he can do or 



448 



MmuTEs OF Public Hearings. 



Carlisle Norwood. 



449 



should properly be called upon to do, and that safety appliances 
and precautions after that should be in the care of the tenant, 
their extent and character depending upon the use to which he 
puts the premises. We believe, therefore, and experience has 
shown, that attempting to hold the owner of a factory building, 
which he does not himself operate, responsible for the proper 
condition of waste receptacles, enforcement of rules against 
smoking, sanitary care of spittoons, fire drills, and so forth, is 
worse than useless, requiring of him what he cannot possibly 
perform. 

"Second ; We believe further that the law should make a decided 
distinction between buildings that have already been erected and 
those that may hereafter be built. Requirements that are just 
and proper for new buildings, and which may be introduced with- 
out much trouble and expense, become confiscatory when applied 
to old buildings. We believe that in common fairness the owner 
who has in good faith constructed his building in accordance 
with the laws and regulations in force at the time of such con- 
struction, and whose building has been duly approved by the 
authorities, has entered into a virtual contract with the State, 
by which he should be guaranteed against further molestation 
and that only urgent public necessity justifies the State in requir- 
ing further sacrifices from him. This principle has been hereto- 
fore observed in the jurisprudence of the State, and more especi- 
ally in the Tenement House Law, where this distinction between 
old and new buildings is particularly kept in view. 

" Third : We submit further, that as a matter of sound public 
policy the law should make a distinction between fireproof and 
nonfireproof buildings. As it now stands, and under the 
draft submitted to us no distinction whatever is made, all build- 
ings whether fireproof or not are penalized alike. It can easily 
be shown that many of the precautions necessary in nonfireproof 
buildings, are not applicable to those built fireproof, and it 
should be the policy of the law to encourage the construction of 
fireproof buildings as much as possible. This applies particu- 
larly to automatic sprinklers, a very costly device of doubtful 
efficacy, which the law now limits to buildings of nine stories or 
over with 200 employees above the second floor, but which have 






been required in this city in buildings of every kind, regardless 
of use or occupancy. 

" Fourth : It is of the utmost consequence and importance to all 
who own or use buildings that there should be stability in the law, 
and that the productiveness of a piece of property should not be 
dependent entirely upon the arbitrary will or caprice of any 
public official, no matter how competent or faithful he may be. 
The law should give the owner the assurance that having com- 
plied with the lawful, just and reasonable orders of public 
authority, he shall be protected against further requirements and 
impositions. As the law now stands and largely under the drafts 
now before your Commission, the discretion of the Commissioner 
is such that he can make almost any demand, and can continue 
to make new ones when the first has been complied with, with- 
out any limitation whatever except his own pleasure. When it is 
considered that the Fire Commissioner of this city is a largely 
overworked official and that he cannot possibly be conversant with 
the one-twentieth part of the cases or orders to which his sig- 
nature is attached, and that he has power to enforce his require- 
ments on pain of fine and imprisonment, it will be evident that 
in his own interest, and that of the property owner and the public, 
there should be some limit upon .this discretion. For this pur- 
pose we have suggested that a more efficient Board of Appeal be 
constituted similar to the one that has for many years been 
established and given such good results in the Bureau of Build- 
ings, which should consist of a body of experts, to which difficult 
and doubtful questions may be referred, and whose decisions shall 
then be final, subject to one appeal to a Justice of the S'upreme 
Court. 

''The accompanying proposed amendments have been drafted 
with reference to the views herein expressed, which are herewith 
respectfully submitted.'' 

That is signed by Mr. William C. Demorest, who is the Presi- 
dent of the Realty League, and who is very largely, and has been 
all his life very extensively interested in real estate; by Mr. 
Charles Buek, who has superintended and erected over 800 build- 
mgs in the city, and who is a well known architect and contractor 
Vol. hi — 15 



450 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



and formerly was President of the Realty League ; by Mr. A. R. 
Bastine, who is a real estate agent and broker; and by Mr. 
Roberts, who is one of the American Real Estate Company, who 
are interested in real estate in this city to the extent of millions 
of dollars. 

Q, Mr. Norwood, are not most of your criticisms directed to 
the bill which is known as the bill creating the Fire Prevention 
Bureau i A. Yes, and they apply equally to the new bill. 

Q. That is one of the things that I would like to bring out; 
now, the part which you object to, in one of our proposed bills as 
J understand, is that part which provides a discretionary power 
in the Fire Commissioner of the city of I^ew York, and elsewhere 
in the State Fire Marshal, with regard to the installation of auto- 
matic sprinklers in any factory building, irrespective of its 
height? A. We do object to that. 

Q. Is it your contention that it would be advisable, not only 
to omit that, but to provide that the two officials shall have no 
discretionary power whatsoever ? A. Xo ; our suggestion to meet 
that is that we should have a law which is the same as that which 
relates to the Bureau of Buildings. There is under the charter of 
Greater Now York a Board of Examiners, to whom anybody who 
feels aggrieved by a requirement of the Bureau of Buildings can 
apply and that Board of Examiners liiis done etlicient and satis- 
factory work for many yeai's; it has never been criticised. 

Q. Is there any other portion of this bill which you criticise? 
A. I can't say as to that particular bill, because, as I said before^ 
sitting down to take those up with experts, will take some time. 

The Chaibman : When do you suppose they will submit their 
objections? When do you suppose it will be submitted to the 
Commission? A. Within a week, certainly. I understand you 
are going to sit longer than that. If you are not going to sit 
longer that that, we will sit up night and day to get it. 

The Chairman : The Commission is anxious to have its pro- 
posed legislation ready at the time the session of the Legisla- 
ture begins. 

Mr. Norwood : We have here some suggestions or changes in 
the present law which would bo equally applicable to the new 



f 



i 



Carlisle Norwood. 



461 



provisions of law ; that is to say, there may be some things which 
are in the new law and which are in the old law. When we speak 
of this law as being an old law, of course it is not an old law, 

it is a verv new law. 

•/ 

By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. You understand this Commission has nothing to do with the 
creation of the Fire Prevention Bureau ; we have nothing to do 
Avith that? A. Yes; but we look at it this way: This is the 
dpportunity that we have of presenting our views of the bills 
to this Commission, because this is all germane to the subject 
upon which they are to report, and we feel therefore that we 
should come before the Commission and not wait until the matter 
went into the Legislature because whatever the Commission re- 
ports to the Legislature will have great weight with the Legisla- 
ture, and we all know that no matter what their report on other 
questions may be, their report on the lire hazard will be very full ; 
therefore our day in Court is practically before this Commis- 
sion. Now we have therefore, along the lines of suggestions one 
of an amendment to the present Fire Prevention Law which is 
as follows : It is to apply to section 777 : " Section 777. The 
owner, lessee or occupant of any building, structure, vessel, en- 
closure, place or promises affected by any order of the department, 
or his agent may, where the amount involved by such order shall 
exceed the sum of two hundred fifty dollars, within thirty days 
after the sen-ice of such order file a notice of appeal from such 
order with the fire commissioner and with the clerk of the board 
of survey hereinafter mentioned. In case one or more orders or 
requirements shall be made at the same time or successively 
affecting the same building and aggregating a sum which shall 
exceed two hundred and fifty dollars on one building, then an 
appeal may be taken from each or ail of such orders." 

In the building bureau it is a thousand dollars, and we have 
made it smaller, two hundred and fifty dollars. 

" He shall also file with said clerk the originals or copies of the 
orders of the department appealed from. The board of survey 
shall thereafter fix a day within a reasonable time for the hearing 
of said appeal and upon such hearing appellant may be represented 



452 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



either in person or by his agent or attorney. Such appeal shall be 
heard by a board of survey consisting of one member of the New 
York Chapter of American Institute of Architects, one member 
of New York Board of Fire Underwriters, one member of the Keal 
Estate Owners and Builders Association of New York, one mem- 
ber of the uniformed force of the fire department, one member of 
the Realty League, one member of the Allied Real Estate Interests 
and one member nominated by the owner, each of whom with the 
exception of the appointee of the owner shall be appointed by his 
respective association and so certified to annually to the mayor of 
the city of New York and the commissioner of the fire department 
of said city. The said members of the board of survey shall each 
take the usual oath of office before entering upon the performance 
of his duties. On each board of survey the owner shall have the 
right to appoint one member without previous nomination. The 
mayor shall annually designate one of said board of survey as the 
presiding officer of said board. At least four affirmative votes shall 
be necessary to the sustaining of any appeal and to the making of 
any order upon such appeal by said board. No member of said 
board shall pass upon any question in which he is personally 
interested. Said board shall meet once a week upon the day in 
such week fixed by resolution of the board. The members of said 
board of survey shall be entitled to and shall receive ten dollars 
for each attendance at a meeting of said board to be paid by the 
comptroller from an appropriate fund to be provided by the board 
of estimate and apportionment and the board of aldermen upon the 
voucher of the board of survev. The clerk of the board of survev 

•^ ft 

who must be a stenographer shall be appointed and may be re- 
moved by a majority vote of the board and shall receive a salary of 
fifteen hundred dollars to be paid in monthly instalments by the 
comptroller from an appropriate fund to be provided by the board 
of estimate and apportionment and the board of aldermen. The 
decision of the board of survey upon such appeal shall be final 
unless within ten days after the order made thereon shall be 
entered and served upon the party taking the appeal or his agent or 
attorney such party shall appeal from such order or decision to a 
justice of the supreme court, and the order or decision of the 
justice hearing and deciding said appeal shall be final and no 



Carlisle Norwood. 



453 






further appeal shall be allowed. The said board of survey shall 
make rules governing the procedure in cases appealed to the board 
and for hearings, decisions and general conduct of the business of 
said board. The board of survey shall keep a record of all their 
proceedings. The board of survey or a committee of said board 
may inspect the premises subject of the order of the depart- 
ment appealed from.'' 

Section 777a is hereby repealed. 

Section 777b is hereby repealed. 

Section 778, chapter 899 of the Laws of 1911, is hereby amended 
to read as follows : 

" Section 778. In case the department or the commissioner 
certifies in writing that an emergency exists requiring such action 
he may on one day's notice to the owner or agent of the building 
as to which the emergency exists apply to the presiding officer of 
the board of survey or in the absence or disability of the latter to 
any four members of the board of survey, for an order requiring 
such building or structure or part thereof to be vacated. When- 
ever any order to vacate, addressed and served as prescribed for the 
service of orders under section 775 of the Greater New York 
charter shall not have been complied with within the time desig- 
nated therein, the department or commissioner in addition to any 
other remedy provided by law may, upon the order of the presid- 
ing officer or four members of the board of survey as aforesaid 
and upon one day's notice served as prescribed in section 775 for 
the service of orders, apply to the supreme court at special term for 
an order directing the department or commissioner to vacate said 
building or premises or so much thereof as may be ordered to be 
vacated and preventing and enjoining all persons from using or 
occupying the same for any purpose until such measures are taken 
as may be required by said order. The city may enforce reim- 
bursements for the expenses of enforcing such order by suit or lien 
upon the property affected by such order. 

" In case an order issued by the department or commissioner 
or the board of survey or in emergency cases by the presiding 
officer of the board of survey or the four members thereof shall 
be complied with then and in such case the owner, lessee, tenant 
or occupant complying with such order shall be entitled to a 



454 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



certificate from the official or officials making such order and 
thereafter the fire department of the conmiission of the board of 
survey shall not make any order relating to fire prevention against 
the said premises except for conditions that may have arisen since 
the making of the order so complied with unless the legislature or 
the board of aldermen by enactment require some new provision 
for fire prevention which might apply to such premises.'' 
^ew section. 

" Section . Limitations. An action, civil or criminal, or 

other proceedings for violation of any provision of section seven 
hundred and seventy-five of the charter, or for failure to obey an 
order of the department or of the fire commissioner or of the 
board of survey or the president or the four members thereof nmst 
be commenced within one year after the cause of action has 
accrued and any such order shall after the expiration of such 
time become null and void." 

The substance of this bill is that there shall be some appeal 
from these orders made by the Commissioner, and that we are 
going to call to your attention. We have some concrete cases to 
offer to this Commission to-day showing the absolutely absurd 
requirement that was issued from the bureau of fire prevention 
since this law went into effect. They are ridiculous, absolutely 
ridiculous, and there is not any one familiar with fire prevention 
in this country, and with the requirements that have been made, 
who won't agree with us that they are absolutely ridiculous, and 
they have been issued therefore either through incompetence or 
through neglect ; and yet following up those ridiculous or incom- 
petent orders there have been letters sent to the owners of the 
building by the bureau of fire prevention saying that unless they 
^x them up within a time fixed in these orders, that they would 
be subject to a criminal prosecution; and in some cases owners 
of buildings, who are large taxpayers in this city, have been 
hauled into the criminal courts because they have refused to com- 
ply with these ridiculous orders; they are being overwhelmed 
with these notices that are being sent them, stating that they will 
be prosecuted criminally because they do not obey these ridiculous 
orders. !N'ow, we provide here in this bill for a certificate, this 



Carlisle Norwood. 



455 



is not a new device, that we have brought to the attention of this 
commission, but it is the same in substance as the one to which 
appeals are now taken to the board of examiners under the charter 
from rulings of the superintendent of the bureau of buildings, and 
provides for the same compensation ; in fact, we are more econom- 
ical ; there they have a secretary and a stenographer ; but we pro- 
vide that the secretary of this board must be a stenographer. We 
then go on and provide how these notices are to be served and 
we provide also that in emergency cases — there is a provision 
in the present law under which the head of the bureau of fire 
prevention decides what is an emergency case. He can go right 
up and say, *^ Well, this building ought not to exist in this way; 
I order it to be vacated at once if you don't comply with this 
order." This bill puts it in the hands of the board of survey; 
so that no longer can there be that threat of the commissioner 
which has been made to owners in this citv, by these men who cfo 
around and serve these owners with these notices, who ought to 
shut their mouths, but they serve the notice with this warning, 
" we can direct this building to be vacated." What does that 
mean ? What does the owner infer that that means ? What would 
any member of this Commission infer it to mean, to say that the 
order requires certain things to be done and the man who serves 
it says, " You know that the Commissioner has power to vacate 
this building." You could make your own inference as we have 
made ours. Wo want to bo protected against anything of that sort. 
. !N^ow, then, we have a new section also, that there should be a 
limitation to actions of this sort, putting a limitation on them, 
so that any action, civil or criminal, for failure to obey these 
orders must be commenced within one year, and we also have 
these other provisions by which we ask protection for the owner. 
This is the situation under the law as it exists to-day, and one of 
our amendments covers this point. The Fire Commissioner to- 
day may issue an order against a certain building requiring certain 
things to be done. If every single thing is done exactly as it is 
required, precisely as it is required, in every detail, so that no 
fault can be found by anybody, the owner is not protected against 
another order requiring more to be done a week later or thirty 
days later: and we, therefore, ask for a provision in the law. 



A^ 



4r»o 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



tliat wlicn the owner has complied with the requirements of the 
Department he shall, as a matter of right, be entitled to a certifi- 
cate showing that he has complied with these requirements, and 
that upon receiving that certificate he shall never again be troubled 
as to this particular improvement by the bureau of fire prevention, 
aiid that shall be settled for all time, unless the Legislature or the 
local legislature, the board of aldermen, by an ordinance, or the 
Legislature by a statute, makes some new enactment which in 
their wisdom they think that conditions have arisen by which 
they think something else should be done to a building of this class 
that was not done in the past; and therefore they make some 
requirement that something else should be done. But this pro- 
vision is to prevent the Fire Commissioner or a new Fire Com- 
missioner — for this is what has happened in the city of T^ew 
York : An official will get at the head of one of the departments ; 
he may be at the head of the bureau of buildings; he may be at 
the head of the tenement house department, or the bureau of fire 
prevention and he will get up a scheme to do certain things ; those 
things are done ; they are done exactly as required ; a new official 
comes in and takes his place, and his attitude always is, " Why, 
this thing is discretionary with me and I don't care what my 
predecessor did ; I don't think that he required all of the things 
that he should have required." And so he starts in and asks for 
a lot of new things from the owner. And that is the wav the 

I' 

owners have been followed up in this city, the owners and tax- 
payers, by the officials, and new officials changing or disregarding 
what has been done before. And we think that every owner who 
has complied with the law should be entitled to a certificate show- 
ing compliance with the law, and then he should be left alone. 

Q. In one of these tentative bills it is provided, as you may 
have noticed, with reference to the occupation of buildings, that 
after a certain date only a certain number of people shall occupy 
a factory building. Of course I take it — T don't know whether 
you agree with me or not — that puts the burden on the tenant. 
Ts that satisfactory? A. I don't know, because that is one of 
those things, as I say, that is one of those questions which we 
will discuss later; that may put the burden on the tenant in a 
certain way, but this is the way it acts, that the owner will 



Carlisle Norwood. 



457 



specify the number of persons, in the lease, that the tenant shall 
use for such a purpose; then here are those other provisions. 
People are being served with notices that they will be prosecuted 
because they have not prevented people from smoking cigarettes 
in a building that perhaps the owner never sees but once or twice 
a year. 

Mr. Elkus: Your whole criticism, as I understand it, is 
directed to the Bureau of Fire Prevention. Of course, we have 
nothing to do with the Bureau of Fire Prevention, but if we 
possibly could work in amendments to that law, we will certainly 
be very glad to do it. But I wanted to call your attention to that 
fact. 

Mr. !N'orwood: This Commission, as I understand it, is going 
to report on anything that affects the factory laws. I suppose if 
we find defects in the present laws, you will welcome suggestions. 
The present law is looked upon by owners who are reputable 
people here, law abiding people, and who believe in fire preven- 
tion, they look upon the present law as a tyranny, and they look 
upon its enforcement not only as a tyranny, but inefficient, and 
that it will always be inefficient and they will always resist it 
while it is in its present condition. The present Board is nothing 
but a trap; it requires us to appeal to a board of three persons, 
every one of whom is controlled by the Bureau of Fire Preven- 
tion. They sent out a notice — yes, knowing that — they sent 
out a special notice inviting them into their trap, and we say they 
should be deprived of any such power as that because when a man 
falls into that trap it will be claimed that he had his hearing, — 
a hearing before three person who have already decided against 
him, before he was heard. T ask that that be remedied. They say 
there is the writ of certiorari by which we can go to the Supreme 
Court, and they do not seem to understand, of course, they do not 
understand, no layman understands, that the writ of certiorari 
does not bring up the merits of the case to the court at all, the 
only thing it brings up is whether any technical errors have been 
made. It is one of those devices of men drawing these bills, who 
knew what they had to do, and they were de\dces, that is all. 



458 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



f I 



If 



The Chairman ; Do you mean those interested in passing this 
legislation were opposed to the large realty owners of this city ? 

Mr. ISToRwooD : I say that they displayed — 

The Chairman : 1 have listened a great deal to your attacks 
upon individuals; all that the Commission wishes to hear from 
you is your statement of defects in the present law and what you 
propose. ISTow, T myself feel that the Fire Commissioner of this 
city is an honorable, honest Fire Commissioner, who is doing the 
l>est he can; T cannot agree with you; there are two sides to every 
question ; we have hoard a great d(,\al al)out the factory owners in 
this State and liow they have been mistreated, and yet when the 
(•ommission went around we saw conditions in many of these 
factories where we found the law absolutely disregarded. Now, 
I don't say that the factories of New York city are not anxious 
to obey the law ; we have found in many cases they do not obey 
the law ; there has not been enough attention paid to the comfort 
and the sanitary conditions under which the men work. I was 
impressed with your suggestion on the question of appeal ; every- 
body was represented upon your Board of Appeals except the 
workingman ; now, he ought to have a representative on there. 

Mr. Norwood: Put him there; there is no objection to it. 

The Chairman : Let us get down to the merits ; let us discuss 
what is wrong and try to remedy it. 

Mr. Norwood: These things apply to the present law. If my 
criticism was an attack upon an individual, it is because it is an 
attack upon the law as it stands to-day ; an individual who occu- 
pies an official position under this law is not attacked and my 
criticism is based upon the law as it stands to-day, and the dis- 
cretion ought to be left in the hands of a board. 

The Chairman: That we are anxious to do. 

Mr. Elkus: You are in favor of taking away the discretion of 
any kind from the Fire Commissioner? 

Mr. Norwood: Yes, sir; absolutely, the discretion that he has 
here under this law. 



A\ 



A 



Carlisle Norwood. 459 

Mr. Elkus : That has existed for many years. 

Mr. Norwood : It has existed for a great many years. 

Mr. Elkus : And the Corporation Counsel tells me it has been 
decided by the courts and the right has been sustained. 

Mr. Norwood: I do not agree with the Corporation Counsel 
upon that point. I have had occasion to examine the law very, 
very carefully. There is underlying this question a matter which 
can be removed by these suggestions of mine, and that is by an 
appeal on the question of the reasonableness of every order that 
he makes. 

Mr. Elkus: Yos, that strikes me as having a great deal of 
merit. 

Mr. Norwood : All that I have said applies to the present bills 
because they are a portion of the existing law. There are other 
matters which are not touched on in the present law, so that these 
amendments should be worked in with the present law. 

Mr. Elkus : Will you submit your ideas in a report in writing 
within a week ? 

Mr. Norwood: Yes. 

Mr. Elkus: Or ten days. 

Mr. Norwood: Within ten days certainly. Do you want to 
hear of any concrete instances ? It ought to be enlightening to the 
Commission to hear some of the concrete instances in which these 
orders have been issued and then you can see why it is that the 
owners are asking to be protected. I can present some of those 
cases now. We expect you to agree with us that no order should 
have been issued. The gentlemen are here prepared. 

The Chairman : No doubt amendments have to be made and 
no doubt a new law always has its hardships, and we will try to 
correct them. Now, that is what we would like to have you 
enlighten us on the things that are wrouof with the law and we 
will try to correct them if we can. 



is 



m 
i 



,1 



s 
I 



40O 



Minutes of Puhltc Hearings. 



Mr. Norwood: Wo will do that iii any way that pleases the 
Commifcision ; we will take your suggestion whatexer it is. 

Mr. Elkus: Submit a statement in writing of those cases or 
a statement upon the record, whichever you like. 

Mr. Norwood: You mean state them upon the record now? 

Mr. Elkus: Now, or give them in writing, and we will put 
them on the record. 

Mr. Norwood: We can put them on the record now, some of 
them ; I can give you one or two. 

Mr. Elkus: It is simply on one question, whether the fire 
commissioner should have ordered an automatic sprinkler or not ; 
now, under the present law his power is explicit, an automatic 
sprinkler may he ordered. I am inclined to agree with you that 
the commissioner should have no discretionary power. 

Mr. Norwood: That would be eminently satisfactory to us, 
that he should have no discretionary power. 

Mr. Elkus: That the law should specify in what particular 
cases there should be an automatic sprinkler. 

Mr. Norwood : The difficulty about that is that you can never 
get a law that will cover all those cases. 

The Chairman: Your idea is then, that the discretionary 
power should not be taken away, but that after an order has been 
issued, if the person affected feels that it is an unjust order that 
he may appeal to this Board? 

Mr. Norwood : Certainly. I think it is a good thing that he 
should initiate the demand for automatic sprinklers or anything 
else; somebody has got to initiate it. 

The Chairman: If you can safeguard that against delays, T 
think that would be a very fair proposition. 

Mr. Norwood: Some buildings, against which orders have 
been issued have never had automatic sprinkler in them, and the 
owners might complain; so the delay and appeal, which perhaps 
would take two weeks, wouldn't make any great difference. 



h> 



A 



Carlisle Norwood. 



461 



By Mr. Elkus: 

Q. Now, Mr. Norwood, when the notices are served under the 
Tenement House Law or the Building Law, showing the viola- 
tion of law, a violation is filed which makes a lien against the 
building. 

A. It is not a lien. 

Q. It makes a lien against the building. 

A. It makes an embarrassment to the owner in selling the 
property because in these days, all the examinations of proper- 
ties are made by title companies, and the title companies apply 
to these various departments. 

Q. Are you in favor of the filing of all violations against fac- 
tory buildings? 

A. There would be no objection to the filing of the violations 
if this same Board of Survey could have the authority to control 
the cancellation of violations that were improperly filed; we are 
in favor of helping the Bureau in every way in which it can be 
helped in order that the owner is protected. Now, there are 
violations outstanding on buildings that are ten years old, and 
there has never been a single thing done to them to cure the vio- 
lations. They stand there to-day and the title company examin- 
ing the title goes up and they find here is a violation ten years 
old, and it is always embarrassing to an owner selling a piece of 
property. 

The Chairman : Whose fault would that be if the violation 
should stay for that length of time and nothing done about it ? 

Mr. Norwood: On your Honor's suggestion that you didn't 
want me to criticise officials I won't say whose fault it is. 

The Chairman : I want you to criticise the amendment — 

Mr. Norwood: If the violation should have been complied 
with when it was filed and it was not complied with I think there 
should be a remedy to enforce compliance with the law. And if 
the owner has not complied with it it is because he knows that 
they demanded something that he was not obliged to comply with ; 
then there are other reasons ; inspectors are sent around to make 



4s 



4U2 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



investigations and they report these violations. I know per- 
fectly well that lots of lawyers in examining titles and finding 
these violations that have been filed for years, they will say to 
an owner, '^ I cannot pass title with these violations against the 
property." The owner will go away and come back in four or 
five days and the violation will be removed, not complied with, 
but removed ; any lawyer in this city who is in touch with these 
matters will tell you the same thing. 

The Chairman : That is not the fault of the law ; that is the 
fault of individuals. 

Mr. Norwood: I don't know; they remove the violations. 
If you want any concrete cases — 

Mr. Elkus: Submit them to us. 

Mr. I^orwood: You want them su])mittcd separately? 

Mr. Elkus: Yes. 

Eudolph P. Miller, Superintendent of Buildings of the Bor- 
ough of Manhattan, addressed the Commission as follows: 

Mr. Miller: Mr. Chairman, your counsel has sent me copies 
of these proposed bills, and asked for suggestions. I will only 
take up those concerning which I have any suggestions to offer. 
There are a number of them on which I do not feel qualified to 
speak, but the first one is that proposed amendment to section 
80 of the Labor Law. I have made my criticisms of this bill 
and they are all submitted to the (Commission in the form of a 
brief. It seems to me in this proposed bill too much stress is 
laid on the outside fire escapes so-called. I believe personally 
the proper way to secure safety in a factory building is to pro- 
vide means inside, within the building, and only in extreme 
cases, where it is impossible or impracticable to do that, then to 
allow the outside fire escapes, so-called. One point that struck 
me about this bill is that the official who had to enforce it is re- 
quired to file a statement setting forth in detail the reason for 
the exemption from the outside fire escape. T should prefer to 
see it about the other way, that he should file the reasons w^hy he 



**f 



^( 






Rudolph P. Miller. 



463 



calls for an outside fire escape and not some interior improve- 
ment. That is just the whole thing as I see it. Now, I believe 
what is attempted here is good and proper, and I think it is on 
the whole well done, and I have only just one or two little sug- 
gestions to make, that might not have occurred to the Commis- 
sion, but I think on the whole these bills are very satisfactory. 
Now, in that bill on the first page, the ninth line, it provides 
that the steps and landings of stairways shall be covered with 
rubber, asphalt or other plastic material. It has occurred to me 
there whether that would not eliminate some of our other forms 
of safety treads. There are certain forms of safety treads in 
use which I think have proved satisfactory. 



The Chairman: I see. What do you suggest? 



'mws] 



Mr. Miller: I have, for instance, in mind, a building of re- 
inforced concrete construction, which is a perfectly safe building 
and in which the stairs would be of reinforced concrete, in which 
it would be diflftcult to apply the coverings required here, and 
where safety treads can be very well and easily applied, and are as 
a matter of fact always applied. On the second 'page on the sixth 
line it says : " Where less than ^ve persons are employed on any 
one floor of a factory all doors on such floor or floors, leading to 
exits shall be so constructed as to open outwardly where prac- 
ticable." Now, I have in mind a building in which the floors are 
divided into three separate sections, and it seems to me that this 
provision or limitation of five persons to a floor should rather apply 
to the section taken care of by the adequate staircases rather than 
the entire floor; it might work a hardship in a building of that 
kind. 

Mr. Elkus: You think if the floor was divided into three 
different sections that the law ought to require that there must be 
at least five persons employed in each one of those sections? 

Mr. MiLLFR : Before your provisions become operative. 

Mr. Elkus : You think for the present it might be too drastic ? 

Mr. Miller: It would be too drastic if applied to the entire 
floor; I think the intention is to limit it probably to just that one 



Uyi 



Mlxutes of Public Hearings. 



section, but it is not so expressed. On line 13, it occurs to me 
there that possibly that portion beginning, " A'o doors leading to a 
stairway, elevator,'' and so on, might prohibit the use of the safety 
bolts which we are getting in our theaters now ; this is a device by 
which the door can be bolted so as to prevent ingress into the loft 
or lloor, but will not prevent egress; that is, the pressure of the 
hand against this device opens the door practically automatically ; 
and to provide that this shall be unbolted and unlocked might be 
construed to prevent the use of such a device. 

Mr. Elkus : Do you know as a practical matter whether those 
safety doors work ; are they efficacious ? 

Mr. Miller : So far as I know they all do. I have not heard 
of one case where they did not work. After they are once opened 
and then an attempt is made to close it they sometimes get out of 
place — I mean the bolt may be destroyed and a new bolt might 
have to be supplied, but the door is open and remains open. 

Mr. Elkus : Then you think we should make the addition that 
this should not apply where doors have some arrangement by which 
they may be locked from the outside, but opened from the inside 
without being unlocked or unbolted ? 

Mr. Miller : Yes. I notice too, that in the provisions for the 
outside fire escapes, provision is made to attach them to two win- 
dows. 'Now, it seems to me in a factory building any opening 
leading to an outside fire escape should be made into a door, and 
windows should not be used for that purpose, they can always be 
cut down to form doors. 

Afr. Elkus : How about existing buildings ? 

Mr. Miller: T think in existing buildings where you have 
got so many lives at stake it should be done ; that is my judgment. 

Mr. Elkus : You think it should be cut down anvAvay ? 

Mr. Miller : Yes, T think it should be cut down anvwav. T 
mean where the old fire ear'apes are as provided for in this bill. 
Another thing a])out this hill, T am not sure, but it seems to me it 
does not limit the use of the outside fire escapes to existing build- 



% 



Rudolph P. Miller. 



465 



IJ 



ings, but would permit them also on new buildings. ]!»^ow, I think 
they ought to be prohibited on new buildings; I think the new 
buildings should be provided with the necessary facilities within 
the building. 

Mr. Elkus: Your suggestion has been already taken care of 
in the new bill. There will be no exterior fire escapes unless they 
want to put them on, and I don't think they will. 

Is it necessary or advisable to have a fire wall extend through- 
out the entire building, or only on one or two floors which are 
used for factory purposes, where a considerable number of persons 
are employed? 

Mr. Miller: It seems to me that would depend somewhat on 
the arrangement. If the floors are used for factory purposes say 
in the lower stories, then it would be perfectly safe to extend that 
fire wall merely for the height of the stories where the factories 
are ; if the factories are below, then it seems to me it ought to go 
down below. 

Mr. Elkus: Suppose the first, second and fifth floors of the 
building were used for factory purposes ? 

Mr. Miller : Then, unless you had the fire wall through the 
third, fourth and fifth floors, it would not effectuallv serve its 
purpose. I notice here in this bill also that you refer to the words 
reinforced stone concrete. I suggest leaving out the word " stone " 
and permitting the use of simply concrete ; also for partition walls, 
as our experience is that concrete is the best fire proof material. 

I would advise having the fire wall extended from the base- 
ment. In the case of the next bill, the proposed amendment to 
section 83-a, that is on fire alarm signal systems, and fire drills, it 
seems to me a very wise thing that is proposed here from the law, 
as it was passed at the last Legislature. In that case, in the law as 
it was passed, it was required that the fire drills should be made 
under the supervision of the fire department of the city of New 
York or the fire marshal, and at stated periods. That was to my 
mind a practical means and this proposed change I think covers 
it very satisfactorily. 



466 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



I have no suggestions on any of the other bills ; simply to indorse 
those that relate to the construction of exit facilities. Of course, 
I do not mean to say anything on those providing for the comfort 
of employees ; I mean, in the way of seats for girls. I am not pre- 
pared to speak on that. But as far as these bills provide for the 
construction of exit facilities, other than T have suggested, I think 
they are very, very satisfactory and very good changes. 

Mr. Charles Buek: I would like to ask Mr. Miller some 
questions. 

The Chairman : That is a matter that is up to Mr. Miller to 
decide. 

Mr. Buek : In regard to this matter Mr. Miller spoke of, there 
are one or two questions I would like to ask. It says on page 2, 
lines 11 to 18, "Where doors open outwardly they shall be so 
constructed or arranged as to afford, when open, an unobstructed 
exterior passageway of the same width as the stairway." Now, I 
understand this applies to all old buildings as well as new ones ; 
and the law provides at another place that the door shall not be 
less than three feet wide. I want to ask whether when this door is 
brought out three feet wide and there must be another space three 
feet wide left, whether that does not mean that every hall in the 
city will have to be rebuilt ? 

Mr. Elk us : They can have sliding doors. 

Mr. Buek : Quite true. This says when they open outwardly 
that there must be as much space left a« the stairs provide. It 
seems that in nine buildings out of ten in this city now built the 
wall partitions from top to bottom will have to be rebuilt. 

Mr. Elkus : May I ask you a question ? 
Mr. Buek: Yes, sir. 

Mr. Elkus: Wouldn't it be necessary then to have some such 
provision as this ^ 

Mr. Buek : I don't think so. I think possibly it is a great 
mistake; the next fire the crowd will come right down the stairs. 



Rudolph P. Miller. 



467 



Mr. Elkus : That is it. Either you have got to have the door 
open outwardly so as not to obstruct the passageway or you have 
got to have a sliding door. 

Mr. Buek : If you have a sliding door and the crowd presses 
against it, it is not any better than anything else. 

Mr. Elkus : It is better than having a door open inwardly. 

Mr. Buek : That would be the result, wouldn't it, Mr. Miller? 

Mr. Miller: Yes; the res.ult would be either by substituting 
sliding doors, or by building a vestibule to the hallway and in that 
way having your door open outwardly without obstructing the 
passageway. Now, I personally an inclined to agree with Mr. 
Buek that in my opinion it is quite as safe to have the door swing 
inward as it is outward, and I think in that matter the discretion 
might be left, as I believe it is at the present time, to the Labor 
Commissioner or the Fire Commissioner in the citv of New York.' 
Of course it is better to have them open outward. There is al- 
ways this also to be kept in mind as to the door opening outward 
in factories that have been in existence for some time where the 
law has not been lived up to. I think it is about time that we got 
after these people who have violated this law and ask them to 
comply with the law. 

Mr. Buek: There is provision in this law about fire escapes 
which is in many respects different from what the present fire 
escape law requires. Do you think it would be fair to require all 
the owners to take down all the fire escapes on those buildings that 
they have made and substitute those other fire escapes ? 

Mr. Elkus : That is not the purpose. 

Mr. Buek: That is what it provides, Mr. Elkus, unless you 
provide specially that those fire escapes that have already passed 
inspection shall be allowed to pass. 

Mr. Miller : I understand there is such a provision here. 



4t)8 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Mr. A. L. A. lliiiimelwright then addressed the Coniinission as 
follows : 

Mr. Himmelwiught: Mr. Chairman, and members of the 
Commission, as you know, 1 was identified with the work of the 
Commission last year, being associated with Mr. Porter in making 
a study of the factory conditions, and the report which was sub- 
mitted to your Commission on the limitation part of your report 
is practically the position that I stand on now. Of course since 
that work was done we have had this matter up more or less under 
consideration. I have come to the conclusion that the whole 
matter of this factory problem can be solved in a simple manner. 
To undertake to prescribe rigid conditions means the preparation 
practically of a building code, and even then it is impossible to 
prepare any draft which will not result in hardships to some 
individual, and many of them in the aggi-egate. T^ow, my whole 
idea of this subject is that it is a question of safety, and that can 
be determined by means of a fire drill. The conditions of the 
building, and the size of the exits and the character of the exits 
and the stairs and the side exits and all that sort of thing are 
different in each building, and it is impossible to provide a set 
of rules and regulations or any legislation which will cover the 
point in a practicable way and not cause hardship in many in- 
stances. If a time limit is set when the occupants of every factory 
must be able to find a place of safety, the fire drill is a method 
which will determine that fact under normal conditions. Of 
course it won^t be au absolute thing, because under fire emerg-ency 
conditions you never get orderly walking and the conditions which 
you get in a fire drill. But the fire drill will in a measure give 
an idea of the time that it will take to empty that building in 
each case. !N'ow, in considering this matter with a number of 
persons who are able to pass on these questions and who have 
given it careful thought we have all in a measure come to the 
conclusion that a three minute limit is approximately a reasonable 
time in which a building should be emptied in order to secure 
safety to the occupants. N^ow, it seems to ino that with the talent 
which the Commission has, and the experience that they have had, 
that they should be able to provide a simple bill which would re- 
quire a drill to determine whether the exits of any building are 



A. L. A. Htatmet.wutght. 



409 



sufficient for the occupants and if they are not sufficient then 
something must be done, so that the building' can be emptied 
within the three minute limit, and it will be up to the architects 
and the engineers and the owners to determine how that can be 
accomplished. 

My idea is to make a very stiff law to require these drills to 
be conducted by some competent authority in the Bureau of Fire 
Prevention in ^ew York or the State Fire Marshal at intervals 
of a month, practically. 

Mr. Elkus: I know, but there are now, I think, 50,000 
factories in New York State to investigate; that have fire drills, 
as near as I can remember. 

Mr. Himmelwrigiit: It only takes ten minutes. 

Mr. Ei.KUs: Then, you would have to have some apparatus 
installed, a fire alarm. 

Mr. Himmelweight: The drill vou have here, the fire drill, 
is an improvement over last year's bill in my opinion, and if you 
incorporated the three minute limit in that and have it super- 
vised properly so that when they get their people out in three 
minutes, that is satisfactory, then that building, as long as it does 
not increase the occupancy will not need to be supervised for a 
long time except to continue their fire drills. 

Mr. Elkus : You take all the manufacturers, thev never have 
the same number of people for twelve months in the year; they 
increase and decrease as demands increase and decrease. 

Mr. Himmelwrigiit: In the same way; every factory is not 
emptied in just three minutes; some would be emptied in two 
minutes. 

Mr. Elkus: These bills which you have read, the bill with 
reference to the number of persons on each floor according to the 
floor space, they are designed to bring about the speedy egress 
and ingress of everybody, are they not? 

Mr. Himmelweight : Well, in a general way the bill is some- 
what similar to what was presented before. 

The provision in regard to where a building is subdivided by 
fire proof partitions, there is some question whether that is suffi- 



470 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



cient or safe; that would apply to a fire proof building, that is, 
a building with fire proof stairs, steps and so on ; but in a wooden 
building I don't think that that would apply at all, that a fire 
wall should be built in a wooden building and some provision 
made. 

Mr. Elkus: Would not a fire proof partition built in accord- 
ance with the specifications in a wooden building hold back the 
fire for some time? 

Mr. Himmelwright: There is a lot of practical difficulty 
there that must be considered in connection with that. For 
instance, if you have your partitions and the floor is of wood 
joists running through it, fire in an adjoining part burning 
through wood joists would fire that whole thing. 

Mr. Elkus: It would hold the fire for a few moments? 

Mr. HiMMELWRiGHT I There is one thing I want to call the 
Commissioners' attention to, and that is the provision allowing 
wire glass in any partition that is to afford safety to occupants 
in case of fire. That is a serious mistake. Heat radiates throuffh 
glass almost as if there was nothing in it, and there are numerous 
cases where fire from a building situated as far as fifteen feet 
away from the opening has radiated enough heat through the 
glass to set fire to partitions and flimsy goods inside of the 
window. 

Mr. Elkus: What can bo used as a substitute for wire glass? 

Mr. Himmelwright : A solid partition ; do not introduce any 
opening except those that are provided by a suitable — ■ 

Mr. Elkus : The idea of the wire glass is to afford light. 

Mr. Himmelwright : The building has to be designed in such 
a way as to get light. 

Mr. Elkus: Is it not your opinion that wire glass is better 
than ordinary glass ? 

Mr. Himmelwright: Yes, it is much better; it stands 1700 
degrees Fahrenheit, which is the temperature ordinarily obtained 



A. L. A. Himmelwright. 



471 



in an ordinary fire; but it will radiate that heat and will set fire 
to the goods beyond it, and if your people are huddled in a space 
there from which they cannot escape on account of blocking or 
jamming, the temperature would roast them and they would be 
suffocated and killed. 

Mr. Elkus: If the provisions of this law were carried out 
there would not be any jamming. 

Mr. Himmelwright: I am satisfied, Mr. Chairman, that 
there is not one person in this room that realizes the danger of 
jamming under emergency conditions. I have studied this prob- 
lem for three years lately, and jamming is liable to occur at any 
time and under any conditions, if sufticient excitement and panic 
prevail. That is, when you have more than twenty-five or thirty 
people in a space they can jam, so that it will be difficult in getting 
out. 

The Chairman : Mr. Himmelwright, I was going to ask you 
a question on your time limit consideration. How could an archi- 
tect take account of that in the proposed plans and specifications ? 

Mr. Himmelwright: In designing new buildings? 

The Chairman: Yes, in designing a building. 

Mr. Himmelwright: Well, the recent attention which has 
been called to fire drills and actual Hve drills that have been 
made have furnished data which would enable designers to esti- 
mate approximately the size of openings and exits to handle a 
certain crowd. Generally speaking, people going single file will 
pass through an opening twenty-two inches wide at the rate of 
one a second, say, sixty a minute, through a space wide enough 
for one person, or forty-four inches wide for two persons going 
abreast. 

Mr. Elkus: Would not your criticism that you cannot stop 
jamming no matter what you do be one of the things yK>u would 
have to overcome by the method which you suggest, having a fire 
drill after a new building is built and then making the owner 
alter it to conform to the results of the fire drill? 



i 



472 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Mr. Himmelwright: That would not work out that way. 
We are learning, and there is now sufficient data available so that 
any intelligent designer can work that out, if he knows what the 
occupancy of the building is going to be. But that is the mis- 
fortune; very seldom the designer does know what the building is 
going to be used for. 

Mr. Elkus: You could not do that in New York, because 
buildings are not erected for a single factory purposa They 
erect a loft building that can be used for manufacturing or for 
any other purpose. 

Mr. HiMMELWRiGHT : Then there is one argimient in favor 
of the three minute bill ; whatever the occupancy and whatever 
the exits are the fire drill will determine whether that building is 
safe for existing occupants. 

Mr. Elkus: Is it not a fact that the requirements which are 
suggested hero limiting the number of occupants would require 
the building to be emptied under normal conditions in three 
minutes ? "^ i 

Mr. ITiMMELWRiGiiT : I think so. 

Mr. Elkus: That is, this bill will permit a building being 
emptied in three minutes from the time of an alarm ? 

^Ir. TTiMMELWRiGiiT : I think so. Personally T agree entirely 
with Mr. Miller on the question of outside fire escapes. \ think 
we have got to ii stage in modern civilization that wo ought not 
to have exposed — 

Mr. Elkus: In new buildings? 

Mr. Tlni-MELWRioiiT: In new buildings. 

Mr. Elkus: I agree with you there, and that is what we pro- 
pose. This bill relates to old buildings, or rather, I should say, 
existing buildings. 

Mr. Htmmelwrioiit : Even in the case of old buildings, you 
do not require the stairway in all cases to go to the top floor; you 
permit a goose-neck ladder which limits and restricts persons, and 



A. L. A. Himmelwright. 



473 



the result is that that causes an accumulation of people on the 
landing where the stairway ends and the ladder commences ? 

Mr. Elkus : I understand your first criticism is that the bill 
does not require that all stairways should go to the top floor? 

Mr. Himmelwright: In factory buildings. 

Mr. Elkus: In factory buildings where you have five stair- 
ways, is it necessary that all of them should go to the top floor ? 

Mr. Himmelwright: By all means. 

Mr. Elkus: Why? 

Mr. Himmelwright : The roof is one of the best places where 
the occupants can go; and where you have a twelve stx>ry 
building — 

Mr. Elkus: You mean that each staircase must run to the 
roof or to the top floor? 

Mr. Himmelwright : Each staircase must run to the roof. 

Mr. Elkus : Let me clear up something which I have got. Do 
you mean that you would provide that every staircase which runs 
to the top floor should run to the roof, or do you mean that each 
staircase of that building should run to the roof ? 

Mr, Himmelwright : Well, that is making a fine distinction. 
I know in some cases they have single stairways running from 
one story to another — 

Mr. Elkus : Suppose there are five stairways in the building ; 
three of them stop at the seventh floor; and two go further up. 
Do you mean that those two should go to the roof, or do you mean 
all five should go to the roof — 

Mr. Himmelwright: I mean that all Rye should go to the 
roof if it is a large building. My reason for that is this : When 
you have a fire drill in a twelve story building, say, occupied by 
two hundred to four hundred people on a floor, if you have a 
suflicient number of stairways, you can take the people from the 
seventh floor down to the ground in three minutes. The people 



474 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



in the eighth, ninth and tenth — well, I am thinking of a ten 
story building instead of a twelve story building. The people in 
the three upper stories can be marched to the roof in about the 
same time. Now, the roof in a fire proof building — 

Mr. Ei.Kus : Suppose it is not a fire proof building. 

Mr. Himmej.wriqht : Then that would not apply of course, 
unless you could get a bridge across and provide an exit for safety 
at the top. 

Mr. Elkus: Have you read the provision that where exit can 
be provided from tlio rm>f to another building, then the stair- 
ways shall run to the roof. Is not that sufficient? There is no 
use of running them up to the roof if thoy cannot go any further^ 

Mr. HiTMMi-jLwuiGirT: No, that is evident. 

Mr. Ei.kfr: (\an you toll the (Vmmission what projmrtion or 
in what nimiber of buildings in this city there is access to be had 
from the roof to some other building? 

Mr. Himmelwrigiit: Oh, roughly, I should say in about 
60 per cent. 

Mr. BuEK : Of course, I don't know, but I think not. 

Mr. Himmelwrtght: In every twelve story building that ex- 
tends two stories above the adjoining building of course you would 
have access from the adjoining building to that building at the 
roof level of the adjoining building. 

Mr. Elkus : You could have, is that your idea ? 

Mr. Himmelwrigiit: Yes. 

Mr. Alexander Brociner, consulting ongiiieor, 4 East 42d 
street, New York, was then heard as follows: 

Mr. Brociner: I did not have copies of the bills — 1 did 
not get them before to-day, this morning practically so that I did 
not read over the whole thing, but I took special notice of the 
fact regarding stairs and doors, and fire escapes, and exits. 1 
do not see any mention here of elevators ; no allowance whatsoever 
is made for elevators, and I would like to know why ? 



Alexander Brociner. 



475 



Mr. Elkus: That is a matter that we have considered very 
carefully, and we have decided that no allowance should be made 
for elevators because under the conditions of fire the elevators are 
apt not to work. 

Mr. Brociner: Why? 

Mr. Elkus: Well, they don't; that has been the experience. 

Mr. Brociner : The experience has been that the elevators do 
not work in case of fire because the elevators are located next to 
the stairways, and somehow or other fire gets access to the stair- 
way. Now, the question is — that is what I want to raise ; that 
is the point — in many factories and loft buildings in this city, 
and generally throughout the country, we find, even where you 
have two or three elevators, they are all in an open shaft, one shaft 
encloses two or three of them, so smoke, fire, flame and sparks get 
in the shaft and they interfere with the use of them. Why not 
separate it where you have two or three; put partitions between 
them so as to make separate shafts ? 

Mr. Elkus: You are talking about new buildings to be 
erected in the future? 

Mr. Brociner: I don't know that it is impossible ^nith the 
old buildings. 

Mr. Elkus: Mr. Brociner, this Commission is very anxious 
to do everything for the safety of the employees; of course they 
realize the best thing to do is to build new buildings, yet they 
have to have some regard for the people who have built buildings 
in accordance with the laws which have been in effect. 

Mr. Brociner: But in this case you might make allowance 
for the existing elevators. I don't really know if your intention 
is only to secure the safety of working people without having 
some safety device for the elevator itself. I don't know whether 
that is included in your bill. In case you consider enclosing the 
shaft, I mean a separate shaft for each elevator, then of course 
you have to take care also that the elevator should not fall down 
more than one story. 

Mr. Elkus : Does not the law now provide for safety clutches ? 



476 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Mr. Brociner : They are not automatic and they do not work 
for direct safety ; sometimes they have to fall down six or seven 
stories before they work. 

Mr. Elkus: What is the requirement now? 

Mr. Brociner: Practically there is no requirement about 
that now. 

Mr. Elkus: Yet, every ele\^ator has a safety clutch. 

Mr. Brociner: There is no requirement of the law except 
the insurance poople, I think. 

Mr. JSTorwood: The requirements of the insurance people al- 
ways have a bigger effect on the owner than the law itself; you 
can't get an elevator insured in this city without a safety clutch. 

Mr. Elkus: Do you see any reason for the passage of a law 
as to safety clutches or elevators now ? Do you think it neces- 
sary ? 

• 

Mr. Brociner: Yes. A friend of mine last week is building 
a twelve story building, and a car in that building went down 
seven stories before it stopped. Now, it could have gone just as 
well to the basement 

Mr. Elkus : Then you think there ought to be a law requiring 
a safety clutch on every ele\'ator that carries passengers which 
would require that the safety clutch on an elevator should not 
permit it to fall one floor, or more ? 

Mr. Brociner: Yes. 

Mr. Elkus : Is it possible to have such a clutch ? 

Mr. Brociner: Why certainly; F don't see any reason why it 
should not 

Mr. Elkus: J)o you know, Mr. Brociner, that the Building 
Department once required such a clutch and it was ascertained 
that that was a patent owned by one man or one company and 
there is only one patent in existence and there was so much pro- 
test that the rule was rescinded ? Did vou know that ? 



Alexander Brociner. 



477 



Mr. Brociner: No, I did not know anything about that; 
my intention is to make the elevators safe and make an allow- 
ance for the existing buildings. 

Mr. Elkus: Let me ask you this: Suppose an elevator had 
this safety device, there was a fire and the people were going 
down in the elevator and it stopped after one story ? 

Mr. Brociner: Well, the safety device should be only an 
accessory ; the first thing is to enclose the elevator in a shaft, and 
then if that thing would not work when it is afire — 

Mr. Elkus : I mean, suppose the elevator passed from under 
control, the people might be caught there. 

Mr. Brociner: Oh, I prefer to have them caught there than 
to go down and smash to pieces. 

Mr. Elkus : Don't you think after all it is not a good idea to 
rely on elevators in case of fire? 

Mr. Brociner : I don't know ; it will bring you down quicker 
than stairs ; if you ever saw the crowds come down stairs you will 
see they don't come down very fast. It says here, in the same act, 
on page 2, line 15, no door, window or opening on any floor of a 
factory shall be obstructed by stationary metal bars, grating or 
wire mesh. Metal bars, grating or wire mesh provided for any 
such doors, windows or openings, shall be so constructed as to be 
readily movable or removable from the interior in such a manner 
as to afford the free and unobstructed use of such doors, and so 
on. Now, there are shutters in existing buildings; no mention 
is made about those shutters. 

Mr. Elkus : They do not obstruct. 

Mr. Brociner : They do obstruct. In the Asche building fire 
the shutters obstructed more than anything else. Now, those 
shutters are, in the day time, of course, open, and in case of fire, 
you would have to knock against those doors. I didn't go into 
detail to study that question, but it seems to me the simplest thing 
would be to put the stairs against the building and the passage- 
way outside of that, and that will force the owner somehow or 



478 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



other to get around that by a sliding shutter in some other way. 
Of course, the owner will complain again, but it seems to me a 
good suggestion because I know most of the cases might be altered ; 
some buildings where I put fire escapes and stairways, in most of 
the cases I noticed the passageway is obstructed ; there is dirt in 
the passageways and most of them are obstructed by many other 
things, piled up; but the sliutters, it seems to me, could be some- 
how eliminated. 

Walter H. Bartholomew, representing the Dress and 
Waist Manufacturers Association, then addressed the Com- 
mission as follows: 

Mr. Bartholomew : Our attorney will submit to you in writ- 
ing a brief in a day or two covering more comprehensively our 
suggestion in regard to this proposed legislation, but I want to 
say to you this morning that our Association is in hearty sympathy 
with everything that your committee is doing, and we want to 
help, not hinder in tlie work that you are trying to do. We have 
about twelve thousand employees in fifty-two factories in this 
city and we have fire drills in operation in all of them now. Our 
restrictions as to hours are even more stringent than you have 
proposed in this bill, though we have not very much to criticise on 
this score. These things came into my hands Thursday and I 
only had Friday to work on them. But I thought it might be of 
interest to you to hear what the effect this bill on occupants 
would have on our fifty-two factories. I measured six of our fac- 
tories, and I find that although they are not now violating a single 
ordinance of the Health Department, or do not violate any of the 
fire laws or anything of that sort, there was not one of them that 
employed the number of employees to meet the provisions of this 
bill if the limitations were enforced. For example, in one build- 
ing only put up three years ago, modern in every respect on which 
there are no violations now, 148 people were employed on one 
floor; that one floor would not hold over ninety-eight under this 
law. Your proposed bill requires thirty-two square feet of floor 
space per person. There is not one of our factories that has as 
little as that per employee. 

Mr. Elkus: Then you don't complain of that? 



Walter H. Bartholomew. 



479 






Mr. Bartholomew : No. 



Mr. Elki:s : 1 am very glad to know that, because that is one 
of the things there had been some fault found with. 

Mr. Bartholomew: I went out and measured the stairways 
allowing fourteen people for each eighte(ni inches of width ; then 
1 measured the area of the landings, and your bill says one person 
to each three square feet. Now, under that ruling 1 could only 
get ninety-eight people into a factory, in which there are now 
one hundred and forty-six in with no crowding, and they actually 
have better than thirty-six square feet each. 

The Chairman: Is it a newly constructed factory building? 

Mr. Bartholomew: An absolutely brand new building, not 
over three years old. We do not object to ideal buildings ; if the 
land owners or the property owners will put them up we will rent 
them. As soon as our leases are expired we will be glad to get 
into fifty-two factories that are ideal; but I do not believe it is 
physically possible to put fire walls in every building within the 
limit of time. The present buildings could not be remodeled or 
new ones put up inside of the next year. 

Miss Dreier: Are the fifty-two factories in lai^e buildings? 

Mr. Bartholomew: We are as a class in good buildings; 
nf>no of our factories are below Twenty-third street, nor alcove 
Thirty-foui'th street, so we are right in the heart of the l>ett^r 
class of loft district. None of us are west of Macy or east of 
Madison avenue, so that means a pretty good class of lofts. 

Mr. Elkus: Have you ever had a fire drill in any of these 
buildings ? 

Mr. Bartholomew: I was just thinking of that while that 
other man was speaking. We have systematic fire drilla in all 
of our shops, and I took a newspaper man up with me the other 
day thinking that I was going to show him a great fire drill. I 
emptied the place before, in a minute and thirty-four seconds. 
Somebody else was having a fire drill at the same time on that 
day and I never saw such a mess in my life. I should think there 



480 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



1 



would be some provision put in there to cover a case where you 
have six or seven tenants in one building. 

Mr. Elkus : Well, you don't know by actual test whether you 
have got too many people in these buildings ? 

Mr. Bartholomew : Well, we have not got a factory that we 
cannot empty in two minutes, our particular loft. 

Mr. Elkus: We are talking about the whole building of ten 
or twelve lofts. Emptying one loft is no test at all. 

Mr. Bartholomew : We cut our time down in emptying our 
lofts much more by things we did inside of the loft than by fire 
escapes; for instance, when we first started in these drills we 
found that a young Italian or Jewish girl was afraid to turn off 
an electric motor. They get excited the minute you ask them to 
go near a rheostat to turn off the motor. We have resorted to the 
method of hiring one man on each row of machines so that as soon 
as the gong sounds he turns off the motor. That in itself cut off 
the time by thirty-two seconds. Then the question of emptying 
the aisles of obstructions, chairs and boxes and things, we found 
we could not rely on the girls to do that ; so we set the shipping 
clerks and the male employees to doing tliat and they are supposed 
to do that. 

Mr. Elkus : That is provided by the law, that the aisles must 
be unobstructed. 

Mr. Bartholomew : As to the Fifty-Four Hour Law, we work 
fifty hours only in our factories now, but we have two seasons 
when we have to operate under very great pressure, two very 
busy seasons, and two corresponding slack seasons. I would like 
to ask the Commission to consider this. If by the enactment of 
the Fifty-Four Hour Law you prevent all overtime, you are mak- 
ing it impossible — for people who have two slack seasons — for 
us to make them busy in their busy season to carry them over. We 
have, I think, overcome the criticism of the question of overtime. 
We have restricted it to two nights each week, and not more than 
two hours in each night's session. That is, they will work on 
Monday and Tuesday nights for two hours each, on Wednesday 
night they will be let off at 5.30. That prevents any continuous 



Walter H. Bartholomew. 



481 



unbroken strain and still gets in four hours of overtime really. 
That is all paid for at 100 per cent, over day rates, and in 
a busy season it amounts to a very considerable increase in the 
wages of the help. We would like nothing better than working 
300 days in the year, without having to put up with the 
hardship of slack periods and busy periods. Now, your law 
would absolutely make it necessary for us to go back and give a 
regular fifty-four basis of work ; we are working fifty hours now. 
Some provision ought to be made allowing us from time to time 
to work until eight, four nights in the week at certain seasons. 
We are in entire accord with the spirit of the Fifty-Four Hour 
Law. 

Miss Dreier: I would like to ask you what would happen if 
the employees were not allowed to work overtime and could not 
work later than six o'clock, what would really happen ? 

Mr. Bartholomew : I presume the thing that would happen 
is this ; we would get as many more employees as fast as we could 
train them ; but you see what you are doing there is this ; since 
there must be floor space enough for accommodating everybody 
at the maximum season, the employer must pay the rent of that 
space for the entire twelve months. !N^ow, at the present time, 
he is not occupying that space for several months in the year, not 
more than half his space. !N'ow, if you require him to take on 
8 or 10 or 12 per cent, more employees to get his work 
done within the limit of fifty-four hours, then you are increasing 
his floor space and you are preventing him from helping out the 
worker who has a long slack season to face. The girls that make 
ordinarily twelve or fourteen dollars in a week, go away with 
sixteen or eighteen and nineteen dollars during the busy season 
with only four to six hours of overtime. It is a decided advan- 
tage to these people in view of the fact that they have such a long 
slack season to face. Now, the question is whether it Is necessary 
in considering the health of the worker in shops, operated under 
sanitary conditions, to provide against that overtime. 

Mr. Elkus: You are in favor of the prohibition of night 
work by women ? 

Vol. Ill— 16 



482 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Mr. Bartholomew : Absolutely ; we have no objection to that 
ten o'clock clause. 

Mr. Elkus : And the closing time ? 

Mr. Bartholomew : Or before six in the morning. 

Mr. Elkus : You want to amend the present Fifty-Four Hour 
Law to provide that jou may have overtime not more than four 
times — 

Mr. Bartholomew : Not more than two nights in succession 
of two hours each. 

Mr. Elkus : Not more than four times a week ? 

Mr. Bartholomew: Yes, sir. 

Mr. Elkus : For how many weeks in the year ? 

Mr. Bartholomew: Well, that would be regulated by the 
seasons. 1 don't think that ought to apply to our trade alone. 

Mr. Elkus: How many weeks all together, say twenty, or 
ten? 

Mr. Bartholomew : It would not be over twelve. 

Mr. Elkus: Not over twelve weeks in the year ? 

Mr. BARnioLOMEw: Twelve to sixteen, anyhow. 

Mr. Elkus: How many members have you in your Associa- 
tion? 

^fr. Bartholomew: Fifty-two members. 

The C'HAiRMAx: I suggest that our engineer accompany ;\fr. 
Bartholomew. 

Mr. Elkus: I was going to make this suggestion, Mr. 
Bartholomew. If you will give us the addresses of those six 
factories we will go up this afternoon and look at those factories 
with our engineer. 

Miss Dreter: I should advise going through one building. 



E. W. Bloomingdale. 



483 



Mr. Bartholomew: Why not take the largest one of them, 
the one with the most people? 

Mr. Elkus : Yes, any one you say. Will you let me know by 
two o'clock here what is the correct number? 

Mr. Bartholomew: Certainly. 

Mr. Elkus: All right. 

Mr. Bartholomew: I can do that from a telephone book 
right now. , 

E. W. Bloomixgdale, No. 100 Broadway, New York, then 
addressed the Commission as follows: 

Mr. Bloomixgdale: 1 may want to be heard on this matter 
later on. I had not seen these bills until this morning, and I 
have been so interested in this discussion that I have not glanced 
through them except only casually. I am interested on behalf 
of some clients but I am not authorized to make an appearance 
for them this morning. There is one question: Whether the 
proposed Building Law being considered by the Board of Alder- 
men — whether this provision comes in conflict with that and 
whether it is to supersede the other. 

Mr. Elkus : We are drafting a State bill for factories which 
will of course supersede the local Building Code. 

Mr. Bloomixgdale: We have already been before the Alder- 
manic Committee on the question of the Municipal Building 
Code and now we have a new set of conditions that we are asked 
to meet. 

Mr. Elkus: Of course an act of the Legislature would take 
precedence. 

The Chairman: In what respect do the two differ? 

Mr. Bloomixgdale: I have not had an opportunity to go 
through these bills. In listening to the discussion it occurred to 
me that there were some features that were covered as well by the 
Aldermanic investis^ation. 






i-'rJ g ,?IH'i ! hi-' - i -. T T. 



484 



Minutes of Public Heabings. 



Mr. Elkus: You are mistaken about that. The aldennanic 
matter does not refer at all to the existing buildings ; practically 
not at all. 

Mr. Bloomingdale : It relates largely to existing buildings to 
this extent: That no existing building can be raised or altered 
or improved or have anything done to it without conforming to 
the new code. 

Mr. Elkus : Yes, but I mean it does not require anything to 
be done primarily to an existing building. 

Mr. Bloomingdale : Does this ? 

Mr. Elkus : Yes, if they want to use it for certain purposes. 
We will be very glad to hear if anything occurs to you that you 
would like to suggest. 

The Chairman: The Commission takes a recess until two 
o'clock. 



John P. Leo. 



485 



Minutes of the Meeting of the New York State Factory 
Investigating Commission, Held at Part Fourteen of 
THE Supreme Court, New York City, New York, Septem- 
ber 23, 1912, 2 O'CLOCK p. m. 

Present: 

Hon. Egbert F, Wagner, Chairman. 
Hon. Alfred E. Smith, Vice Chairman, 
Hon. Edward D. Jackson. 
Hon. Cyrus W. .Phillips, 
Miss Mary E. Dreier. 

Commissioners. 
Mr. Frank A. Tikrney, Secretary to the Committee. 

Appearances: 

Abram I. Elkus, Esq., Chief Counsel. 
Bernard L. Shientag, Esq., Assistant Counsel. 

Mr. Elkus : The Real Estate Owners' AssociatioA asks to be 
heard. 



John P. Leo, representing the Real Estate Owners' and 
Builders' Association, 5 East Forty-second street. New 
York City, addressed the Commission as follows: 

Mr. Leo: I would like to say at the outset generally we are 
in no way opposed to the spirit of the law, the general require- 
ments of the law. We would ask, however, that in the adminis- 
tration and in the working out of the details that are required, 
that we should have the right to an appeal board, that shall be 
an entirely impartial fair board. 

The Chairman: You are referring now to the Fire Preven- 
tion Law? 

Mr. Leo : Yes, sir, entirely. We have to do, I might say, not 
so much with the conduct of the law, or of buildings, as we 
have with construction and amendments, and we would be affected 
more particularly by orders directing changes in buildings than 
we would be in any other way. Now, we would like to have the 
right of appeal to a board that is entirely impartial, just and fair, 
and that is removed from the directing authority who orders the 
changes in the first place. In fact w€) ask for, in a question of 
this kind, a trial by a jury, made by as in your judgment you 
think would be a fair, just jury. 

Mr. Elkus: You are speaking only of those orders where the 
Fire Commissioner has discretion? 

Mr. Leo: Exactly. 

Mr. Elkus: Has your Association examined the bills which 
are now before this Commission for consideration? 

Mr. Leo: I have received a copy on Saturday and we have 
not had a chance as yet to go into them as we would like to. 

Mr. Elkus : Well, will you examine them. We will be very 
glad to hear from you in writing. 

Mr. Leo : We will be very glad to submit them. 

Mr. Elkus: Within the next week or ten days. 



486 



Minutes of Puhlk^ Hearings. 



Mr. Leo ; Thank you ; then, we will present them in that form 
together with any suggestions that we may have to make in regard 
to this particular matter. 

Mr. Elkus; Yes, sir. 

John H. Wolf, secretary of the Xew York Laundry Own- 
ers' Association, then addressed the Commission as fol- 
lows : 

Mr. Wolf: Why, I don't know exactly the full purpose of 
this session of the Commission; I only arrived at the opening here 
and 1 find several bills which I think are very desirable. There 
IS one thing I have been advocating, and that is if the Commis- 
sioner of Labor secures or has more powers, he should have more 
money to carry out his work if it is possible. The IS^ew York 
Laundry Owners' Association have stood for the enforcement of 
the factory laws as they have always stood on the statute books, 
but Commissioner Williams has always told us, when we have 
attempted to have any violations corrected, that he did not have 
sufficient money to go in and examine all the complaints that 
were brought in to him. Xow, with the new Fiftv-Four-Hour Law 
which has just been passed, it is understood that he is to have 
forty new inspectors, and in conversation with Mr. Williams last 
Friday evening, he informs me that the money is not forthcoming 
at the present time, and that he needs the assistance of the citi*'- 
zens of the State of Isew York to get the law makers to pass 
along more money for his department to properly carry on their 
work. The laundry men are very much in favor of the Fifty- 
Four-Hour Law. T believe it is a good thing and we intend to 
live up to It. And we also feel that the act proposed or offered on 
the question of fire prevention is a good thing; it is a good thing 
for workers in factories. On that matter I might state that on 
October 10th, ex-Chief Croker will address our association on fire 
prevention; so you see we are heartily in favor of that sec- 
tion. I desire to call your attention to a law or an amendment 
to section 92 of the Labor Law which the laundrymen introduced 
at Albany last year, but it was defeated, or it was passed to the 
Governor and he vetoed the measure — and that was to insert a 



John H. Wolf. 



487 



clause that where laundry work is done by the use of machinery 
for hire it should come under the Department of Labor. It 
seems to me that at the present time the hotel laundries are not 
subjected to the supervision of the Department of Labor. 

Mr. Elkus : Why was it vetoed ? 

Mr. Wolf : From what I gathered the Governor claimed that 
the amendment was improperly inserted in the bill. 

Mr. Elkus: A clerical error, was it? 

Mr. Wolf: Yes, sir. Now, we intend to go into that ques- 
tion, and I will be pleased to pass that up to your Committee for 
cons'ideration. That law should bring the hotel laundries under 
the Department of Labor; at present hotel laundries which op- 
erate their own plants for the laundering of their guests' linen 
do not come under the jurisdiction of the Department of Labor. 

Mr. Elkus: Is there any reason why hotel laundries should 
not come under the Labor Law ? 

:\rr. Wolf : The hotel men claim that they are not under that 
law. The Factory Law states that where laundrying is done for 
the purpose of gain, it is a factory. The hotel men contend that 
it is not done for gain but for the accommodation of their guests. 
They charge a cent and' a half a piece, and they say it does not 
come under any law. 



MINUTES OF THE MEETING OF THE NEW YORK STATE FAC- 
TORY INVESTIGATING COMMITTEE, HELD AT THE HEAD- 
QUARTERS OF THE COMMITTEE, NO. 22 EAST SEVEN- 
TEENTH STREET, NEW YORK CITY, NEW YORK, SEPTEM- 
BER 23, 1912, 8 O'CLOCK P. M. 



Present: 

Hon. Egbert F. Wagnek, Chairman, 
Hon. Cyrus W. Phillips, 
Miss Mary E. Dreier, 

Commissioners. 

Frank A. Tierney, Esq., 

Secretary. 

Appearances: 

Hon. Abram L. Elkus, Chief Counsel to the Commission. 
Bernard L. Shientag, Esq., Assistant Coimsel. 

Miss Elizabeth Diitcher, representing the Women's Trade 
Union League, addressed the Committee as follows : 
Miss Butcher; This Society appears here to-night to favor 
the early closing movement. It was organized in 1912 to help 
department store workers. It is not a trades union and it has no 
relation to any trades union. It is an independent body. Miss 
X—, who is with us, is the President, and Miss Y— is the Secre- 
tary, who had communication with the Commission, to obtain 
permission to have this hearing here this evening. We want 
to have some of our members speak. 

Mr. Shientag : How many members have you ? 

Miss Butcher: I can't tell you just at the present time how 
many we have. We have somewhere between ten and twenty, all 
department store workers. The speakers here to-night will be 

our members except Mrs. Pratt, and Miss and Miss 

who are also department store workers but who are not members 

[488] 



Mrs. Helen Woodford Pratt. 



489 



of the society at present. Mrs. Pratt has been an investigator for 
the Consumers League and has gained some information that she 
would like to give here this evening. I would like her to give 
some information as Chairman of the Executive Committee of 
our organization. 

Mrs. Helen Woodford Pratt, called as a witness, having 
been first duly sworn, testified as follows: 

Birect examination by Mr. Shientag : 

Q. With what organization are you connected, Mrs. Pratt? y 
A. The New York City Consumers League. 

Q. In what capacity ? A. Investigator. 

Q. How long have you been an investigator for the Consumers' 
League? A. From July, 1911, until June, 1912. 

Q, Buring that time did you make an investigation of the con- 
ditions in the department stores in IN^ew York city ? A. Yes. 

Q. Now, will you please tell us briefly what the nature of that 
investigation was, and how you came to make it? A. I was em- 
ployed by the Consumers League to investigate the conditions in 
the department stores in New York, particularly with the idea of j^ 
finding overtime records, and low wages, and home conditions of 
women who are employed in department stores. 

Q. And when did you make this investigation? A. I made it 
almost all last winter, from October until March. 

Q. How many department stores did you go into in the course 
of the investigation ? Bid you keep a record ? A. Yes, I have a 
record ; I couldn't tell you the exact number, but I visited most 
all of the department stores in New York. 

Q. Will you tell us the conditions that you found? A. Now, 
I have some schedules here, which are records of overtime, and I 
thought perhaps that I could just do it most briefly by giving 
these records that I collected from the cards of their overtime 
records. 

Q. Are those records of specific cases? A. These are records 
of specific cases. 

Q. In the department stores? A. Yes, and if you want to I 
will give the name of the store; I would rather not mention the 
names of the girls; this is A's store (indicating card), from 



490 



Mlmttes of Public Hearings. 



Septeiiil)er 28d until November ;30th. This girl worked 
for nine weeks, three times a week from 8 a. m. until 7.30 
p. M., one hour for lunoh, no time for supper, making a total 
of ten and one-half hours a day, and fifty-eight and a half hours 
a week. From December 1st until January 31st, for eight weeks 
from 8 A. M. until 10 p. m,, with one hour for lunch and one hour 
for supper, making a total of twelve hours a day or sixty-three 
hours a week. The two weeks prei^edin^- diristmas and the two 
weks after Christmas she worke<l four wet ks from 1) a. m. to 5 p. 
M., with one hour for lunch, making fifty-nine hours a week. Now, 
this is a consecutive period. That is, from September 23d, until 
two weeks after ( ^hristmas. She worked with overtime work con- 
tinuously an average of fifty-eight, sixty-three and fifty-nine ' 
hours a week. For this she did not get any overtime pay. 

Q. What salary did she receive? A. She received six and a 
half dollars a week. 

Q. How long had she been employed in A's store? A. She " 
entered in 1909, and this was in 1912. 

Q. What salary did she get in 1909, have you a record of that ? - 
A. Yes, she began at three dollars a week in that department. 

Q. How old was she i A. She was seventeen when she entered. 

Q. In what department did you say she began ? A. She began 
in the auditing department. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. Was she in that department when she worked these hours ? 
A. Yes; she was in the auditing department; she went into the 
checking department for a little time for three dollars a week, 
then she has been raised to six and a half dollars a week. 

By Mr. Shientag; 

Q. Have you got a detailed history of the life of the girl ? Was 
she a graduate of the public schools of this city ? A. I don't think 
she was. 

Q. Did she live at home with her parents? A. Yes, she lived 
at home with her parents and she tried going to night school, but 
she had some serious trouble with her eyes ; she was only able to 
go to night school for one winter ; she wanted more of an education 
than she had, but she had to give that up. Last year, last summer, 



Mrs. Helen Woodford Pratt. 



491 



a year ago this siunmer, one of her eyes went completely blind and 
she had treatment in one of the hospitals to recover her eye sight. 

Q. Did she have to help to support the family ? A. She gives 
up her envelope to her mother every week, who gives her an 
allowance out of it; she complains a great deal about conditions 
in A's store. She says the system is very bad; if they are five 
minutes late they are fined; she is also fined twenty-five cents and 
ten cents for clerical errors, depending on the graveness of the 
error. 

Q. What is the fine for being late five minutes; have .you a 
record of that ? A. Yes, ten cents, ten cents for being late five 
minutes. Now% here is the most flagrant record of overtime that I 
have ever gotten. (Indicating). I don't know whether it is quite 
fair to give it because it is not typical, but at any rate it is a very 
bad one. 

Q. (Interrupting) This is another girl, No. 2? A. Yes, sir, 
No. 2. This is B's store; this record was taken from November 
20th to the 29th, and from December 1st to December 18th. 

Q. From day to day ? A. From day to day, yes. From Novem- 
ber 20th to November 29th she worked six times a week, that is, 
every day from 8 :20 until 10 :30 p. m., making a total daily of 
twelve hours and a weekly total of seventy-two hours. From 
December 1st to December 18th she worked from 8 :20 until 11 
o'clock p. M. with one hour for lunch and one hour for supper, 
making an average of thirteen hours and forty minutes a day, 
and eighty-two hours a week. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. May I interrupt just a moment. Do you object to giving 
that testimony publicly ? I don't mean that you should disclose the 
names of the girls, but the testimony outside of that, of your in- 
vestigations, which you have made? A. How do you mean, 
publicly ? 

Q. Why, whether w^e should not have your testimony at a pub- 
lic hearing instead of a secret hearing, such as this is. The reason 
for having this was simply because we wanted to protect the girls 
who publicly would not come before us and testify. But an ex- 
amination such as this is I think should properly be at a public 
hearing, a public examination ? A. Well, the only — 



492 



Minutes of Public Heaeings. 



Q. Unless you have some reason— A. (Interrupting) The 
only reason I could think of would be that the league would not 
want the names of the department stores given out. The material, 
I think, could be given out. I don't think the league would object 
alone to that, but I don't know about mentioning the names of the 
stores. 

Q. What objection could there be to that ? A. Well, because it 
is very hard to keep peace anyway, and I think there might be 
a great deal of antagonism. 

By Miss Dreieb : 

Q. Did you go into the stores and make your investigations by 
courtesy ? A. Not at all, I got all of these through the girls ; I got 
no information at all from the department stores, except interviews 
from managers. 

The Chairman : I really think that publicity helps in a case 
of this kind, except that we do want to protect the girls from 
injury resulting to them because of the testimony they might give. 
But I think a thing of this kind would have a greater effect by 
giving it publicity. Don't you think so, Mr. Shientag ? 

Mr. Shientag : I think so, surely. 

Miss DuTCHER : I might say, just as Mrs. Pratt has said, that 
we got permission to give this testimony from the Consumers' 
League on the ground that it be a secret hearing. 

The Witness : I don't know ; I think perhaps the league might 
consent to do it, excepting for the fact that the department stores 
being mentioned. Of course, that would be quite important, 
wouldn't it? 

Miss Dreieb : That is what we want. 

Miss Dbeier : As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, we won't 
get much publicity, because these department stores are immense 
advertisers. 

The Chairman : I was going to ask Mrs. Pratt, if she had no 
objection to that, that we ought to arrange for a public hearing on 
this matter. You see, we do not want to have anybody think that 



Witness No. 1. 



493 



our Commission has any star chamber proceedings. I mean, we 
want to give full publicity to everything that we do, except that we 
will protect working girls or women from being injured because 
of facts which they give us. But an investigation of that kind 
ought to become a public investigation at which all parties in 
interest would have an opportunity to appear and be heard. 

The Chairman : What do you think about that, Mr. Shientag ? 

Mr. Shientag: I think it is much better to have a public 
hearing where it is possible to have one and so far as this witness 
is concerned I believe that the nature of her testimony is such 
that it should properly be given in public. 

The Chairman : And if the league does not object, we would 
be very grateful to you if you would testify publicly. 

The Witness : Why, yes, if the league was willing I would be 
perfectly willing too, because these are some of the facts that were 
collected and I think it would be very valuable to give them to the 
public. 

The Chairman : Would it put you to any inconvenience if 
you ascertained that and let the Commission know? 

The Witness: Not at all; I would be very glad to. 

The Chairman: We will arrange for that just as quickly as 
you want to. 

The Witness : I would be very glad to do that. 



Witness Number One, a department store employee, having 
been first duly sworn, testified as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Shientag : 

The Witness : What I was going to speak about was about the 
mutual benefit. You are compelled to belong to the mutual benefit. 
Q. The mutual benefit, where? A. In A's store. 
Q. Were you employed in A's store? A. For ele\^en years. 
Q. When did you start in that store ? How old were you when 



494 



Minutes of Public HearixXgs. 



you started there ^ A. Well, 1 was not young. It was eleven 
years ago ; 1 am forty years old now. 

Q. And what work did you do there when you started? A. 
A clerk. 

Q. In what department ( A. In the leather goods. 
Q. What salary did you receive when you started ? A. Seven 
dollars a week. 

Q. You continued in its employ for about eleven years? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. When did you leave? A. 1 made the change a few 
months ago. 

Q. What salary did you receive when you left? A. Ten 
dollars. 

Q. A raise of three dollars, in eleven years ? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Have you a family? A. No, sir; my sister and I keep 
house, together. 

Q. And she works? A. When she is able to, she works. 

Q. Will you tell us about the mutual benefit plan of A'? stored 
A. Well, when you go there, you make out an application and 
on this application you have to join the mutual benefit. 

Q. Do you have to join when you enter the employ of A's store ? 
A. You have to join. 

Q. How much do you pay a week ? A. Well, thirty-five cents 
IS taken out of your salary, sometimes thirty, and according to 
each death, there is more money taken out of your salary; for 
each death you are taxed so much. 

Q. What do you get for that ? A. Well, if you are sick the 
first week you draw $2.50; the following week $5. 

Q. Does the firm contribute any money to this fund ? A. Xot 
that I know of. 

Q. Have they any other benefits? J)o they keep a vacation 
home or an;>1ihing like that ? A. ^oi that I know of. 

Q. Do the girls complain about having to join this mutual 
benefit society ? A. Yes, they certainly do. 

Q. Have they complained to the firm, to representatives of 
the firm ? A. IN'ot to my knowledge. 

Q. How do you voice your objection? A. Well, in the first 



Witness ^o. 1. 



495 



place, I suppose she wouldn't be employed as soon as she did it ; 
you would not be employed unless you did sign all these papers, 
and it is read over. 

Q. You mean the girls do not even read the papers over before 
they sign them? A. Yes, certainly do; but before you are taken 
on, it is read by the gentlemen that takes you on. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. You were told you cannot be employed unless you join this 
benefit ? A. No, sir, but it is on the slip that you are supposed 
to join it. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Well, are there no women employed there that do not belong 
to the benefit society ? A. Positively none that T know of. 

Q. Have you ever gotten any benefits from this society while you 
were employed by A? A. Certainly I did, because I worked 
niffht-work one winter, it must have been in October, I worked 
night work regularly three nights a week ; some nights four, and 
so on ; from October until after Christmas. 

Q. Well, did you get paid for overtime ? A. No, sir, you get 
your supper pass, and this supper pass is given to you and you 
go up to the restaurant and you get your supper, not saying what 
it is you get to eat. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. What do you get ? A. Well, Miss Dreier, I wouldn't like 
to tell you what happens; but you know^ many of our girls are 
poisoned ; you must have heard something about that ; and T was 
taken sick, as luck happened, before I did have to go to the place 
I am now, when I had — without I had a week's rest, and I 
don't know what I would have done if I had not. 

By Mr. Shientag : 

Q. Well, during the eleven years that you worked for A you 
had to work overtime for a few months a year? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What months did you have to work overtime in, from 



I 



496 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



October to January ? A. From October to iN^ovember and Decem- 
ber, not saying what nights you could call your own. 

Q. How long did you work overtime, how many hours? A, 
Until eleven o'clock some nights, some nights half past ten; we 
. had to move tables, regular porter's work, moving boxes, moving 
stocks around ; I lost my health there. 

Q. How many hours was that ? Beginning when, what time 
m the morning until eleven o'clock at night you say ? What time 
did you come in in the morning? A. At eight o'clock, sir. You 
are fined if you enter after Rve minutes after eight. 

Q. How much were you fined ? A. I was never fined, sir, for 
I was never late. 

^ Q. What is anybody fined that is late, do you know ? A. Yes, 
sir, I think that if they are ten minutes late I think the fine is 
fortv cents. 

Q. What work were you doing just before you left A's — A. 
(Interrupting) I was transferred to the basement. 

Q. Selling in the basement ? A. In the basement, right near an 
elevator, and I caught my death of cold ; my doctor told me I was 
going into consumption. Through ^he kindness of a customer I 
made the change to B's store. 

Q. Did you have any fire drills in A's place ? A. Not to my 
knowledga 

Q. Were you ever told where the exits were and what exits to 
use in case of a fire? A. No, sir. 

Q. Do they supply seats for the use of the salesladies ? A. Now 
they do through the kindness of a lady that is here. 

Q. What kind of seats do they supply, stools or seats with 
backs ? A. Stools, sir. 

Q. Do they permit the use of these seats through the day? 
A. Well, if nobody was around, sure; nobody would sit unless 
they were tired. 

Q. Do they fine the girls for sitting during the daytime? 
A. Not at all ; of course the girls don't have much time to sit ; 
when you have a bargain counter you don't have a chance to sit. 

By the Chaiemait: 

Q. Hunting arpuTid for bargains ? A. Sure. 



P -MLPj P" ! U Ji!l' 



i 



Witness No. 1. 



497 



By Mr. Shibntag: * 

Q. Women do most of the bargain hunting ? A. I don't know ; 
gents do the same thing, I guess. 

Q. Are there any other conditions that you want to tell the 
Commission about ? A. Yes ; about other girls that have to work 
until all hours. 

By the Chaiemah": 

Q. Will you state again about how many hours you worked a 
week when you worked this overtime, how many days in a week 
you worked overtime? A. Well, in fact the whole month of 
December, you never knew what it was to call a night your own. 

Q. Well, do you mean that you worked overtime every night ? 
A. Every other night overtime. Why it would be seven and half- 
past seven when you got out, and that was early, without any 
supper. 

Q. Well, you said that some nights you worked until 10 o'clock. 
When was that? A. Christmas time. 

Q. Do you get extra pay for that ? A. No, sir, we only get 
our supper. 

Q. No extra pay at all ? A. No, sir. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Did you ever work overtime for an entire week one night 
after the other ? A. What would vou call overtime ? 

Q. After 6 o'clock? A. Certainly; it would be 7 and half 
past 7 some nights. 

Q. Every night in the week? A. Why certainly; especially 
around Christmas time, then it would be around 9 or 10; and 
some of the girls in the candy department did not leave until 3 
o'clock in the morning. 

Q. How old were those girls that were in the candy depart- 
ment, you say ? A. I couldn't tell you their age, sir. 

Q. Is there anything else that you want to tell us? A. No, 
sir. 

The Chaieman. — You told U8 how much money you were 
required to put into the benefit? 



I 



498 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Mr. Shientag: Yes, thirtv-live cents a week. 

Bv Miss Dreier: 

Q. Did you have occasion to use tlie benefits A. I did: I 
lost mj health there. 

Q. You don't know how much you use it '( A. Xo, I couldn't 
really say that. 

Q. Do you know any girls who have paid in and have not used 
it at all and have been discharged ^ A. No, not that I know of, 
but 1 could find out for vou if vou want me to do that 

Q. I think that would be of value. 

Mr. Shtentag : We could get that from the employer; there 
must be some reason for this benefit societv even if it is com- 
pulsory. 



Witness No. 2, a department store employee having been 
dulv sworn, testified as follows: 

Direct examination by Mr. Shikxtag : 

Q. What is your position '( A. Sales clerk in A's store. 
Q. How long have you been a sales clerk there? A. Seven 
■years this coming October. 

Q. What salary did you receive when you went into A's em- 
ploy ? A. Seven dollars. 

Q. Did you have any experience in the department before you 
went to A's? A. Yes, I was nine months in C's store. 

Q. When did you start work with C? A. When < 

Q. Yes. A. The March previous to that Octol>er. 

Q. What salary did you get when you started ? A. Four and 
a half. 

Q. How old were you when you started, do you remember? 
A. I guess about 24, 23 or 24. 

Q. Do you contribute to the family support ? A. Never. 

Q. Do you live with your parents? A. No. 

Q. Do you board out here in this city ^ A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Well, when you were getting four and one^half dollars a 



Witness No. 2. 



499 



week, how much did you have to pay for board? A. Well, I 
was living home then. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. Is your family in New York now ^ A. My father lives in 
Brooklyn. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Well, how much did you have to pay for board when you 
were getting $7 a week ( A. Three and a half dollars and my car 
fare and lunch monev. 

Q. Did that cover your car fare and lunch money, or was that 
for board only ? A. It had to. 

Q. Do you want to tell the Commission about overtime in the 
department store in which you were employed? A. I certainly 
do; I worked every night in the week from Thanksgiving on 
until Christmas eve, after 11 o'clock, every night. 

Q. This last year ? A. No, not for the last three years. 

Q. When was that? A. About four years ago. 

Q. What was the occasion for that ? A. The Christmas holi- 
days. 

Q. Was there any change made in the department after that ? 
A. There has not been so far. 

Q. How is it you worked overtime then and not since? A. I 
am not in the same department. 

Q. What department was that i A. Toys. 

Q. Don't they hire any additional help in the toy department 
during the Christmas season? A. Yes. they increase their num- 
bers, and evervbodv ha,s to work. 

Q. Did you work overtime continuously every night? A. 
Every night to Christmas eve. 

Q. Beginning at what time in the morning ? A. I started out 
quarter past 8 ; if I worked late the night before, I came in at 
11 o'clock. 

Q. \^'hen you worked until 11 at night, you did not come back 
until 11 o'clock the next morning? A. Oh, they were supposed 
to come in on time. 

Q. Well, when you began at 11, the following morning you 



500 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



J 
I 



I 



« 



worked continuously until what time? A. Eleven and 12; there 
wasn^t a set hour for stopping. 

Q. You took some time for lunch ? A. An hour for lunch. 

Q. When did you take your lunch usually ? A. Twelve o'clock. 

Q. And you took an hour for supper? A. We didn't always 
get an hour for supper; we had our supper in the restaurant there. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. You are employed there now, are you? A. Yes. 
Q. What do you earn there now? A. Eight dollars. 

By Mr. S then tag : 

Q. Were you ever paid for overtime at all? A. Never; I 
have never been since I have been in A's. 

Q. Did you belong to the Mutual Benefit Society ? A. Yes, I 
do; everybody belongs to it; everybody belongs to it that works 
in A'e. 

J Q. Well, you don't know of any case where a girl or a 
woman was refused employment because she did not want to join 
•the society, do you? A. Never heard of anything. 

Q. How much do you pay toward the fund? A. Thirty-five 
cents a month. 

Q. That is deducted from your salary '< A. Yes, without ask- 
ing, when you are three months there. 

Q. Did you ever get any benefit from this fund? A. Yes, 
they paid me for thirteen weeks. 

By Miss Dreieb: 

Q. How much do they pay? A. Two and a half dollars the 
first week, aud five dollars for the following weeks. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Who are the officers of the fund, any of the employees? 
A. Yes, they are all employees, I think; T don't know who is 
treasurer; I couldn't say. 

Q. Do you know who the officers of the fund now are? A. 
No, I do not ; I get a report, but I never bother reading it ; Miss 
W is the head nurse there. 



Witness No. 2. 



501 



Q. Did they ever have a fire drill in A's since you were there ? 
A. They always have a fire drill among the men but not among 
the girls; they have all the exits marked with the red lights, but 
it is only the last couple of years they have been doing that. . 

Q. They never had a fixe drill among girls? A. No. 

Q. They don't tell you what exits to use? A. The danger 
signs are up. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. Why don't they have them among the girls? A. Why, I 
don't know; the men are the ones who know about putting out 
the fire. 

Q. We don't mean the putting out of the fire but getting out ? 
A. The getting out of the building, I never have been told; the 
exits are all marked, but only these last couple of years they 
have been marked. 

By Mr. Shientag : ^ 

»•% 

Q. Is the nurse a part of this mutual benefit society organi- 
zation? A. Why, yes, sir. 

Q. Is she paid out of th6 funds of that society? A. Yes, her 
salary is in every year's report. 

Q. Don't you know* whether the firm contributes any 'funds to 
this society? A. Why I don't believe they do; I don't know. 

By the Chairman : 

Q. What do you think are reasonable hours for girls Xp work 
in these stores ? A. Why, I think from 8 :30 in the morning till 
5 :30 at night is plenty. 

Q. You think that would be fair? A. Very fair; even as it 
is now on Saturday night we had to work until quainter past six 
and you don't know anything about it until half past five; you 
don't know about it until the last minute. 

By Commissioner Phillips: 

Q. Is the afternoon busier than the riioming? A. Not 
always ; it all depends on whether they are going to have a special 
sale or not ; they are always arranging different sales on this main 
floor. 






502 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



By Mr. Shientag: 

(J. When you liave to work overtime do they give you auy 
notice in advance, or do they notify you at any time during the 
day^ A. On Saturday we did not kiiovi' until half past five that 
we were going to stay ; and it was ten after, about quarter past 
six when you were told you had to stay. 

Q. Do you have any trouble about usins: the seats that thev 
supply for the women? A. Xever. 

Q. You can use them whenever vou want to? A. Yes. 

Q. Have those seats backs? A. Ko, they are just al)out that 
wide (Indicating). 

Q. What do you do, put them up against the wall ? A. Put 
them up against the fixtures behind you. 

Q. Do you think it is necessary to have seats with backs, or do 
you get along very well with those ? A. Why, I think any kind 
of a seat, as long as you get a chair is all right 

By the Chairman: 

Q. The girls are not organized, are they, in these stores? A. 
'No; they try often, but we can't succeed, in getting them together. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. The girls don't stay vers^ long in the department stores, as 
a rule ? A. Yes, there is quite a lot of girls in A's that have been 
there five, six, eight, ten and twenty years ; there was a girl there 
not long ago who was there twenty-five years, who was discharged 
and she got no notice. 

Q. What work was she doing? A. She was selling baby car- 
riages up on the fourth floor. 

Q. How old was she, about? A. I guess pretty near fifty. 

Q. Well, what are the average wages that are paid to girls in 
A's store, do you know? A. Six or seven dollars; they graduate 
the little messengers, and make them sales clerks, and they get 
four and a half to ^yb dollars a week, and they are using them 
instead of experienced clerks now. 

Q. Is there any opportunity of advancement from the clerks' 
grade? A. I don't consider that there is, because if there is 
some chance for advancement thev ijet somebodv from the out- 
side. 



Witness No. 2. 



503 



Q. They do not advance to the grade of assistant buyer or 
something like that ? A. 1 never heard of it. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. If you are transferred from one department to another is 
there a chance of your getting an increase? A. Xot always; 
it all depends on what department you are transferred to; if you 
are put in cloaks and suits, that is the one department where they 
pav more monev ; but thev are all about the same. 

By Mr. Shientag : 

Q. But you are uuder the direct supervision of the buyer of 
the department, aren't you ? A. Absolutely. 

Q. The buyers try to keep salaries down, don't they ? A. 
Always; we have women just now\ 

Q. Well, she tries to keep salaries as low as possible so as to 
show a large credit for her department at the end of the year? 
A. Yes, they all do that. 

Q. Are they given discretion in the fixing of salaries, do you 
know ? A. Whv, I don't believe thev do. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. You have to support yourself on the salary you get? A. 
Yes. 

Q. Don't you find it very hard to get along? A. Sometimes 
I get money from my father, but not very often. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Well, you are not able to save any money out of the salary 
you get, are you? A. Never. 

By the Chairman: 

Q. You live with a family, do you not ? A. No, I live in a 
hotel for girls. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. When you say your salary is eight dollars, that does not 
mean the deduction? How much do thev deduct from that? 
A. Thirty-five cents a month. 

Q. Are you fined ever for anything? A. Sometimes when I 
am late at noon time I am fined ten or twenty cents. 






i 



604 



Minutes of Public Hearings. 



Q. Is that deducted? A. Every week. 

Q. Do you know during the week that you are going to be 
fined? A. No; sometimes I don^t remember when I am late 
until it is taken out of my salary. 



By Mr. Shientao: 

Q. Well, don't they notify you when you are late? 
you are supposed to know that yourself. 
Q. Do they have a timekeeper? A. Yes. 



A. No, 



By Miss Dreieb: 

Q. Is there any delay in going out to the street ? You haven't 
got a time clock ? A. No ; some of the girls in the store have the 
time clock, up in the clerical department they have the time 
clocks, but we have not. 

Q. There is not any delay in notifying the timekeeper? A. 
When you get inside the door you are not considered late, but it 
is, about five or eight minutes after the time before you pass 
through the timekeeper's ; if you are in at 8 :20 in the morning 
you are not late. 

Q. Is there anything else you would like to tell us ? A. Why, 
I don't know; only about other girls that have been discharged; 
there is one girl I tried to get here to-night ; she lives away over 
in Jersey; she came in every morning at eight o'clock and she 
worked every night in the week from Thanksgiving on until 
Christmas eve, and she was discharged because she was getting 
thirteen dollars, and she was there thirteen years, because her 
salary was too high. 

By Mr. Shientag: 

Q. Was there as much of this overtime work during the last 
year as there had been previously ? A. There is always, but last 
year at the Christmas holidays I noticed that they did not keep 
the younger girls after eight o'clock at night, but it did not 
affect the older girls a bit. 

Q. What is the trouble, the sudden rush of buying within a 
period of two or three weeks ? A. Yes, sir, and the goods coming 
in from Europe being unpacked and being put on the floor. 



Witness No. 2. 



505 



Q. Has the early shopping movement had any effect on the 
overtime? A. I haven't noticed it. 

Q. You haven't noticed the early shopping or the effect? A. 
The effect. 

By Miss Dreieb: 

Q. How do you feel after those weeks overtime? A. Well, I 
was home three months. 

Q. As a result? A. Yes; this girl has just broken down 
lately; she couldn't stand it; she was discharged in the store and 
she was very sick then; one time before she got the benefit in 
the store for thirteen weeks; she worked every night in the week 
and was in the next morning early. 

By Commissioner Phillips: 

Q. Have you ever gotten any benefit? A. Yes. 

Q. How much of a benefit? A. Two and a half dollars the 
first week and five dollars for the following weeks. 

Q. Does anybody investigate the illness? A. Why yes, we 
have a doctor now; we didn't have at that time; I went to the 
board of health at that time; we had a letter from the nurse and 
I was sent up to the mountains. 

By Miss Dreier: 

Q. Just explain, is there only overtime during this Christmas 
rush? A. No, any time. 

Q. Any time? A. Any time at all; sometimes they might tell 
you the day before that they are going to have a sale and not to 
make any arrangements for such and such a day. 

Q. So even at this time of the year you don't know whether 
you have your evenings free or not ? A. You are not supposed to 
make any arrangements at all. 

By Mr. Shientao: 

Q. During the past six months have you had occasion to work 
overtime?